The Pox decks here seem to all have Top in the md, meaning they play quite well from the top of their decks.
I don't see how we beat a resolved Abyss, for example, with all the board control they run. Cutting their deck and hope they mull to oblivion is my plan.
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Good point. It appears that the newer Pox lists run SDT. However, the 'traditional' lists do not. I just reviewed the Pox primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rimer-Deck-Pox) and it says that SDT is "non-traditional" and "seen in rogue lists."Originally Posted by Purgatory
Against The Abyss - play TNN naming yourself so that you can't target it. If they are dropping The Abyss, you are in trouble. Creeping Tar Pit is another option.
Spell Pierce is solid vs. Pox, as it slows down pretty much their entire deck. Sylvan Library would also be very good because traditional Pox lists are very slow to kill (I've seen newer lists that run a higher creature count).
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Yeah, also keep in mind that as Water_Wizard points out, if you play a dude and they Smallpox, they only just broke even on card advantage.
Daze is hilariously awesome here against Sinkhole as well.
They have real issues as long as you can keep dropping dudes and staying aggressive on them. Ideally, if you can drop 2 guys in a turn, they have real issues dealing with that.
Essentially, treat them almost like a combo deck - save your Forces and Spell Pierces for things you know that will wreck you (Liliana, the Abyss, etc.). I rarely counter their Smallpoxes or Sinkholes unless it costs me almost nothing (Daze) to do it.
Looking at the top eight coverage of the last star city open, I ca't help feeling like the Team player would have had such a better shot at beating the RUG player if they had hymn to touch. I mean casting thought seize vs RUG just seems bad. All their cards are on the same power level and the 2 life really matters against lightning bolt.
i am pretty sure the card submerge is what tipped the scales...
I think it's generally accepted that Thoughtseize is better vs SFM decks & combo while Hymn is better vs everyone else.
Hi everyone,
Usually, I play RUG Delver (Tempo T**sh) or creature-less deck, like ANT, Doomsday or, like these few past weeks, 43 Lands (wich actually counts 36 lands, but eh). Now, I feel like I want to play RUG, but with Shaman, so it is Team America right (still Team America ?).
While I look for lists and read here and there comments and co, I ask myself "in a tempo/aggro deck, if you play a full set of Daze and Wasteland, why dont you also play a full set of Stifle ?" In RUG, Stifle is my favorite card.
Does someone have an answer for not playing Stifle ? Thx :)
There's also a BURG Tempo thread for a similar deck to your idea, btw. They might have more ideas and insight there?
In regards to Stifle, I would say that Team America (or BUG Delver as newer players call it), more often taps out than RUG does. For example, we usually would much rather cast Deathrite Shaman on T1 than hold mana open for Stifle. Likewise on T2, you're often tapping out for a Tarmogoyf or Hymn whereas RUG can afford to cast a Mongoose/Delver while holding Stifle mana up.
Generally speaking, our mana curve is higher due to the greater density of 2-drops and some 3-drops, so we simply can't afford to pass the turn holding up mana the way RUG can.
Ok, sound good. Thank you for your answer Esper3K.
I think this is also the main reason to run up to 20 lands despite having a pseudo mana accelerant with Shaman.
I would argue that TS is also better vs Blood Moon and Mother of Runes as well.
Exactly. Since our curve is higher, we need more lands. DRS helps, of course, but can't be relied upon 100% of the time.
Went 4-0 tonight with Team. Not a single game loss even. Man this deck is good. I'm playing Hymn stalker version. A brief report:
Round 1: Junk depths
Game 1: I go delver into goyf. He spends his second turn hymning me which makes goyf a 5/6 since he hits Lili. He's dead in two turns after a wasteland and an abrupt decay on a knight.
Game 2: Is more grindy as we strip each others hands. But the last card in my hand is a Submerge which I sandbag He knows about it and laments not taking it with Thoughtseize. He has Dark Depths and Stage but can't make marit through the submerge. I draw deathrites and Liliana to lock it up.
Round 2: UWR Miracles
Game 1: I delver him down to about 11 life before he kills it. I start dropping threats the he deals with but then can't answer a tombstalker.
Game 2: Long, Long Long. I end up ultimating Liliana and wreck half his lands. I get a Sylvan Library into play which is the best card in the solar system against them. He entreats but plays around spell pierce and only makes one angel which I can abrupt decay. His Jace stays in play for a long time before I finally am able to kill it with a goyf. The next turn I see force, force, blue card with library. YES PLEASE. I keep a clique in my hand for terminus and force every answer he has for my 7/8 goyf. Dang big goyf.
Round 3: BUG control
Game 1: He's on a sweet list with bobs, goyfs, hymns, and Jaces. I decay his first shaman and he drops a bob. I can't find a removal spell but he can't find anything but discard with Bob and delver and death rite gets there.
Game 2: Sylvan Library to the rescue! He plays toxic deluge to kill my Tarmogoyf and tombstalker. He fow's a Lili (not sure why he kept that in). And I grind to a win with double death rite shaman. In the end i pithing needle naming Jace knowing that it is his only out. Sylvan Library just drew good stuff.
Round 4: Welder Metal worker.
Game 1: I'm scared of this deck cuz he's packing blood moon. He dumps most of his hand into play but doesn't have a decent threat, just monoliths and top.
I wasteland his land and he doesn't have a second. Deathrite into liliana then makes short work of him.
Game 2: He goes metal worker into monoliths while I'm just trying to get to abrupt decay mana for the moon I am afraid of. He then makes a jillion mana with a voltaic key and hard casts BLIGHTSTEEL COLOSSUS!!! Thank you force of will. His goblin welder doesn't even have any targets.
Sweet night. I played numerous other test games with people. Ended up with a 13-2 record all told on the night including the tourney and the practice games. Love the deck. The only question I have left is whether to have an Envelop or a Swan Song in the sideboard.
Neither? I played the full set of Pierces to a 4-0 and then double ID into top-8 and loved thm. Good against everything that looks slightly unfair. Envelop doesn't catch Silence, Sneak Attack. Swan Song gets them a blocker for our best guys (Delver and Clique). Fluster is great but it doesn't hit everything either. Pierce is just the most versatile.
Well done on your 4-0 btw!
Neither? I played the full set of Pierces to a 4-0 and then double ID into top-8 and loved thm. Good against everything that looks slightly unfair. Envelop doesn't catch Silence, Sneak Attack. Swan Song gets them a blocker for our best guys (Delver and Clique). Fluster is great but it doesn't hit everything either. Pierce is just the most versatile.
Well done on your 4-0 btw!
I do like me some spell pierce and I have been running three but I was wondering if I should switch one of them to a swan song or envelop. I just hate that spell pierce can almost never counter a terminus or an entreat since miracles has a million mana by the end of the game. Convince me that pierce is better though.
I'd consider it if you're expecting a good amount of miracles wherever you play.
I'd like to steer the thread towards talking about Dark Confidant again. Has anyone tested the recent Confidant builds that have been doing well since Team won GP Paris? I've been trying to myself but haven't gotten enough time to test to decide whether I like him better than Tombstalker in this deck.
In regards to Legacy:
I guess it's a meta thing. Here in the Netherlands I am yet to encounter my first Miracles opponent in tournament play.
If Miracles is such a big thing, I would choose Envelop over Swan Song. Don't let yourself get killed by that swan token.
The Confidant lists are interesting. I love Stalker too much to switch just yet, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on this.
EDIT: If I do a test run, it'll probably be with a list like this:
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /16
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil /25
Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /19
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm/Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil /15
It has been performing pretty well on the mtgo daily events and placed 3rd at SCG Atlanta. I have the list sleeved up but haven't had time to live play test it. I think it's ver interesting and possibly better depending on the meta.
I just wanted to chime in on the confidant debate a little bit. If you look at the confidant decklists, the card selection pushes the deck into a more midrange approach. It's not at the point of shardless bug midrange, but the deck's strategy is different from the prototypical bug delver's approach. Traditional bug delver is more tempo oriented and focused on disrupting the enemy long enough to get them from 20 to 0. The card advantage cards like hymn and liliana (sylvan library has been dropped down to a 1-of in most of the more recent lists) have mostly been to add to the tempo plan. Rather than giving you more cards or selection, its been primarily aimed at taking away your opponents'. The confidant lists have changed this dynamic--confidant gives you extra cards so you can be more discriminate with how you interact with your opponents. The deck itself is still quite aggresive, but the lines of attack are different. In these lists, it might be better to thoughtseize rather than to hymn--surgical dismantling the opposing strategy rather than using a spray and pray approach.
The main advantage I that I see from this change is that it gives the deck a better matchup against things like miracles. Taking a top is much more advantageous than taking a dead miracle card+land. You can also see this trend from looking at their sideboards--jace is showing up as a 1-2 of in the confidant lists. This tends to imply that the designer wanted to be able to play a longer drawn out g2 versus decks with heavy card advantage (miracles, esper).
I think that sometimes just looking at the new cards without understanding why they were added skews deck development and evolution by making the overall strategy less coherent. Just some thoughts as development moves forward.
I don't mean to denigrate your post, but I'm pretty sure most of us understand why Javier Dominguez added Confidant to his list. What I'm trying to figure out is whether playing confidant over tombstalker and thoughtseize over hymn is better in an unknown and/or open meta rather than the traditional hymn stalker build. It may just be a matter of playstyle and one build is better in specific metas then others. But personally, I've never had a problem playing against TNN blade decks with the hymnstalker verison, and I feel like I can win pretty much any tier match up if I play tightly and don't get too unlucky. Thus, I don't know if I'd switch to confidant and thoughtseize unless it proves itself to be clearly superior. Also, I'm pretty sure the person who got DQ'ed out of the GP Paris Top 8 was running a hymn stalker build. Would have been nice to see how it would have done in that top 8 but oh well.
In regards to Legacy:
hi there,
i went in Paris for the GP last month and i played team america. i did day2 but the second day was very unluckydespite i didn't test enought before gp and i finished 160 in the rank.
i played one list with confidant because i aspected more miracle and mirror MU (thing has happened).
anyway after the gp i did some adjustments and in the end the list is this:
15
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite
4 delver
25
3 ponder
3 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 hymn
3 daze
4 decay
1 spell pierce
2 liliana
1 disfigure
20
4 underground
2 bayou
1 tropical
4 wasteland
8 delta/verdant
side
3 golgari
1 pulse
2 envelop
1 null rod
1 needle
2 diabolic edict
1 jace TMS
2 spell pierce
1 vendilion
1 force of will
i cut one daze because, i think, now the legacy format is very fast and if our opponent open like t1: delta+shaman our daze become dead! also i cut one force because with confidant i wouldn't take many damages! i add one pierce maindeck who become the fourth fow and daze many time!
the side is against many kind of tier we could aspected: mirror, miracle, esper, DeT and combo
for example:you can use evelop against miracle or combo...or Jace is huge in mirror, esper or random deck!
i side in often Pulse because is able to fix many scenario we could meet.
me and my team mate we're testing this list for a month and we won 70/80% of our match. try it if you want and let me know...
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