That style tends to favour not being Black. When you cast a Thoughtseize you're spending mana, then your opponent spends mana on casting a Spell. Now you're down by 1-mana. Cards like Nimble Mongoose aren't powerful enough on their own to justify that kind of tempo loss. This is why Canadian (I think. RUG) is successful. It forces its opponents to spend the same or more mana than them, and uses Stifle to strip their opponent 1-1 on both mana and cards, but netting you an extra mana every turn thereafter. BUG tends to play higher costing cards that just have a higher overall impact. The mana loss becomes less relevant because your cards are so significantly more powerful than your opponent's.
BUG Delver is not a tempo deck, it is a highly aggressive - highly disruptive - midrange deck. It plays very differently to other flavours of Delver. Though you mentioned playing BRUG, which I always designed as 'BUG with Bolts' to put it as simply as possible. (I may look over that again.)
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Originally Posted by useL
Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Well i talked to my team mate an buddy lurch about his current list which i like and we are brewing the "hopefully" best tempoish bug deck for the Bazaar right now.
I personally would add 4 stifle instead of discard because stifle is an excellent card right now in the metagame - again.
I brought Burg Delver to the GP Paris and went not that great as espected,because the mana base sucked too often for my taste.
This bug build however has the same strategy while having a "solid" manabase but without bolts and blasts.
Greed has it's limit i have to admit.
There are very different interpretations on bug tempo i guess,depending on playstyle which is far more important than metagame shifts.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I brought this up as I identified this as the Tempo thread, as opposed to the Midrange/Contol Thread in the "Established" section. We rather designed bUrg similar to Canadian, i.e. RUG splashing black for (up to two) Decay, Deathrite Shaman and better sideboard options. Our focus was always keeping the curve extremely low. My whole point is bringing up a new style of BUG with a lower curve and a wider variety of disruption than burn and RUG.
I play this deck in a very reactive fashion. Nimble Mongoose is not an early game creature in the original sense. It is brilliant after a few turns when thresh is established. Check it out, YamiJoey, it does not compete in any way with Thoughtseize: In the early turns, I deplete my opponents' gas. When the coast is clear, I drop a threat, protect it and beat him dead.
----------
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
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Opponent at BOM 8 Paris: "What's that card? I've never seen it before."
Me: "It's a Tarmogoyf. It tarmogoyfs"
Opponent: "What does it do? Judge!"
Judge: "True. It tarmogoyfs."
Well guys, I buckled down today and took the time to finish the primer. It's pretty much done so I just messaged Zilla to replace the old primer with it. Here's a link to it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...679#post798679. Let me know if you guys have anything you want me to consider adding or changing in the primer.
In regards to Legacy:
Hint: Don't let bloodmoon resolve.
Are you saying Painter is important enough to include in Section VII
In regards to Legacy:
Esper was complaining about it.Are you saying Painter is important enough to include in Section VII
While I think there seems to be an uptick of it these days, I wouldn't put too much effort into it unless it is all over your local meta like it was in mine.
Eh, there's one person at my LGS who has been playing it for a little while to much success, but he's going to gut it for UWR Delver. Either way I'm not going to add a section for a deck that doesn't Top 8 all the much. I think Imperial Painter's probably really good meta but it's going to be perennially underrepresented because Imperial Recruiters, among other cards, are pretty expensive while also only going in one competitive deck. I think for decks that aren't represented as Tier 1-1.5 via results we just discuss in the thread.
In regards to Legacy:
PLayed a tourney yesterday (about 28 people, 5 rounds and cut-off to top-8).
Didn't go that well, but I learned a thing or two still. And I had fun anyway.
List:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Sylvan
1 Lily
4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical
9 Fetch
4 Waste
Side:
4 Pierce
4 Disfigure
1 Surgical
1 Cage
2 G. Charm
1 Grip
1 Clique
1 Lily
Round 1: UWr Miracles (my first competitive clash with Miracles). Game 1 he finds a Top, which in turn finds him every solution he needs for my stuff, just in time. He finishes with an Entreat for 7 in turn 30 or so. (side: -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Lily -perhaps that's wrong, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique) Game 2 we have little time left, so it ends in a draw. 1-0-1
Round 2: Punishing Jund. Game 1 I get an early Stalker out. We fight over some resources but Stalker seals it. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +1 Surgical, +1 Pierce) Game 2 we fight over resources, but this time she gets the edge and when I draw some lands she drops two guys and Lily. I do manage to Extract the Fires, but I lose to the board presence. Game 3 goes the exact same way as game 2, only this time she uses Relic to clear up the yard, and the turn after I draw Stalker. Hard luck I guess. (note: G3 I sided -1 Pierce, -1 Ponder, +2 Daze to try to get early board presence -failed I guess...) 1-2
So now I'm out of contest for top-8, but I play on anyway. Experience and fun, or stuff like that.
Round 3: The mirror! But he plays the weird 3 Goyf, 1 Stalker, 1 Bob, 1 TNN list. Game 1 I land Sylvan, which finds me infinite gas and I wreck him. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce OTD /I keep Daze OTP) Game 2 is a bit closer, but I again get more board presence and keep him under pressure until he cannot find an answer when my last threat will kill him. 2-0
Round 4: Goblins. Game 1 he just overruns me. I keep a hand that is good against combo or control, and proceed to draw only lands afterwards. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Clique, +1 Lily not sure if correct) Game 2 I completely wreck him. Is this a good matchup or not? I just don't know at this point. Game 3 he gets a Krenko online, which I have no proper solution for. Krenko goes nuts and I Charm to stall the game. In my turn 3 of the extra turns after time was called I have to find the second Charm, or he just kills me. I draw with Sylvan. Nothing. I fetch and cast Ponder. Nothing. I shuffle. He cuts. I draw. CHARM!Sorry man! I unwrap my present and walk away with an undeserved draw. 1-1-1
Round 5: UWr Miracles again. Game 1 I keep him under pressure, and he needs some serious shenanigans to not just die. At some point he just cannot find an answer to my threat and I take the game. (new side tech: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker (because of RIP), -1 Bayou, -1 Hymn, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique, +1 Lily -again not sure what is correct) Game 2 he has no Top and I draw well, so I just wreck him. He does stall a bit here and there with a Terminus and Jace, but I just have too many threats. 2-1
End result: 2-2-1, so 50%. Not brilliant, but you cannot win them all.
I definitely didn't play my first Miracles match uptimally. Some thoughts on the matchup: Overextending into Terminus/Verdict seems bad. We don't have infinite threats, so losing a lot in one blow just means lights out. But... one threat is a slow clock, and giving Miracles time to assemble CounterTop and then Jace bouncing your one threat also means lights out. So my general rule right now is play one big and one small threat (so 1 Goyf/Stalker and 1 Deatnrite/Delver). Ot at least not more than two threats in total. That way I have a fast clock, but still it's only 2-for-1 if he wipes the board. Not sure if this is correct though.
Some questions remain:
1. How good is discard? If he has Top online, he just plays from the top of his deck. A well timed Hymn can wreck him though. I won the fifth round mainly on a good Hymn each game, I think.
2. How good is Liliana in this match? They have little threats to kill with Lily, but removing half their land seems good. I'm not sure though, because the discard ability isn't great.
3. How would the experienced players here board against them? Did I mess up my boarding, or was it "okay"?
4. What's our percentage against Miracles anyway? I really have no clue at this point.
I'm actually not a huge fan of Spell Pierce vs Miracles. It does very little vs their removal spells (StP, Terminus, Supreme Verdict) which are what actually wrecks us. Liliana is great but I wouldn't ultimate her unless she's at 7+ loyalty (most of the time). I think discard is fine. Hymn is actually most important when you can hit their lands with it. Yes, too is amazing for them but Hymn / Thoughtseize are still very strong because they can disrupt them just long enough for us to survive.PLayed a tourney yesterday (about 28 people, 5 rounds and cut-off to top-8).
Didn't go that well, but I learned a thing or two still. And I had fun anyway.
List:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Sylvan
1 Lily
4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical
9 Fetch
4 Waste
Side:
4 Pierce
4 Disfigure
1 Surgical
1 Cage
2 G. Charm
1 Grip
1 Clique
1 Lily
Round 1: UWr Miracles (my first competitive clash with Miracles). Game 1 he finds a Top, which in turn finds him every solution he needs for my stuff, just in time. He finishes with an Entreat for 7 in turn 30 or so. (side: -1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -1 Lily -perhaps that's wrong, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique) Game 2 we have little time left, so it ends in a draw. 1-0-1
Round 2: Punishing Jund. Game 1 I get an early Stalker out. We fight over some resources but Stalker seals it. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +1 Surgical, +1 Pierce) Game 2 we fight over resources, but this time she gets the edge and when I draw some lands she drops two guys and Lily. I do manage to Extract the Fires, but I lose to the board presence. Game 3 goes the exact same way as game 2, only this time she uses Relic to clear up the yard, and the turn after I draw Stalker. Hard luck I guess. (note: G3 I sided -1 Pierce, -1 Ponder, +2 Daze to try to get early board presence -failed I guess...) 1-2
So now I'm out of contest for top-8, but I play on anyway. Experience and fun, or stuff like that.
Round 3: The mirror! But he plays the weird 3 Goyf, 1 Stalker, 1 Bob, 1 TNN list. Game 1 I land Sylvan, which finds me infinite gas and I wreck him. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +1 Lily, +1 Clique, +2 Pierce OTD /I keep Daze OTP) Game 2 is a bit closer, but I again get more board presence and keep him under pressure until he cannot find an answer when my last threat will kill him. 2-0
Round 4: Goblins. Game 1 he just overruns me. I keep a hand that is good against combo or control, and proceed to draw only lands afterwards. (side: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +4 Disfigure, +2 Charm, +1 Clique, +1 Lily not sure if correct) Game 2 I completely wreck him. Is this a good matchup or not? I just don't know at this point. Game 3 he gets a Krenko online, which I have no proper solution for. Krenko goes nuts and I Charm to stall the game. In my turn 3 of the extra turns after time was called I have to find the second Charm, or he just kills me. I draw with Sylvan. Nothing. I fetch and cast Ponder. Nothing. I shuffle. He cuts. I draw. CHARM!
Round 5: UWr Miracles again. Game 1 I keep him under pressure, and he needs some serious shenanigans to not just die. At some point he just cannot find an answer to my threat and I take the game. (new side tech: -4 Daze, -1 Stalker (because of RIP), -1 Bayou, -1 Hymn, +4 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Clique, +1 Lily -again not sure what is correct) Game 2 he has no Top and I draw well, so I just wreck him. He does stall a bit here and there with a Terminus and Jace, but I just have too many threats. 2-1
End result: 2-2-1, so 50%. Not brilliant, but you cannot win them all.
I definitely didn't play my first Miracles match uptimally. Some thoughts on the matchup: Overextending into Terminus/Verdict seems bad. We don't have infinite threats, so losing a lot in one blow just means lights out. But... one threat is a slow clock, and giving Miracles time to assemble CounterTop and then Jace bouncing your one threat also means lights out. So my general rule right now is play one big and one small threat (so 1 Goyf/Stalker and 1 Deatnrite/Delver). Ot at least not more than two threats in total. That way I have a fast clock, but still it's only 2-for-1 if he wipes the board. Not sure if this is correct though.
Some questions remain:
1. How good is discard? If he has Top online, he just plays from the top of his deck. A well timed Hymn can wreck him though. I won the fifth round mainly on a good Hymn each game, I think.
2. How good is Liliana in this match? They have little threats to kill with Lily, but removing half their land seems good. I'm not sure though, because the discard ability isn't great.
3. How would the experienced players here board against them? Did I mess up my boarding, or was it "okay"?
4. What's our percentage against Miracles anyway? I really have no clue at this point.
Sideboarding: Tombstalkers need to come out. They're terrible vs. StP, Terminus, Jace, RIP. Clique (surprise attacker and more importantly, can stop Miracles), KGrip, Liliana, need to come in. If they try and next level you by boarding out CB, you can trim an AD or two and swap the rest for Golgari Charm (kills RIP, protects from Supreme Verdict) so pay attention in G2. Finally, I think you have too many Spell Pierces and Disfigures in your board. Probably want to trim 1-2 apiece for other SB cards.
Thanks for the response, Esper!
I didn't side in Charms versus Miracles. Perhaps that was wrong. I talked to some of the Miracles players, and they mentioned that there were basically two camps. One that advocated siding in RiP against us and one that advocated against it. I felt I should side in Charms for game 3 if I saw RiP. Decay seemed better overall. And siding in Charms for the one-of Verdict seemed bad in my mind. On the other hand, my first Miracles match I kept both Stalkers, and had to spend a Decay on a RiP in game two. Never got to finish that game though, so I don't know what would have happened, but Charms could have been good in that game.
The thing is, Miracles never really became a big thing in NL. It seems to have gained in popularity very recently, and yesterday was my first time ever that I played against it competitively. And I immidiately faced it twice. Time for me to figure the matchup out.
About my sideboard: I used to play 3x Disfigure and 1x Submerge, but I expected a lot of Patriot, so that's why I switched to 4x Disfigure. But right now I think I should go -1 Disfigure, +1 Liliana. Lily is just the more versatile card, and it takes over midrange matches like a maniac. The 4x Pierce is because in NL we tend to have more combo than usual. Both Storm based and Show and Tell based. I didn't encounter any this time, but I do feel the four Pierces are good. Also, if I side out Dazes, I want to add other blue stuff. The u-count is 20 in the main deck, so cutting on blue makes FoW bad. Funny thing to mention: the Miracles match I won, in game two I drew all four Pierces. I countered a Counterbalance, a Jace and Force of Will and I pitched one to my own Force. They seemed good. But it's true they never hit removal.
So much for my explanations. Let's say you're right and I need to cut both a Disfigure and a Pierce. Which two cards would you suggest I add?
Yeah I'd only bring in Charms for AD if you suspect they took out CB against you since it'll kill RIP and has some added value vs Supreme Verdict (I do like that Miracles is playing less Verdict these days).
I think Tombstalkers should always come out because even if you don't get hit by RIP, 'Stalker is still not very good in the matchup (comes out slower than Goyf, same weaknesses, wrecked by Jace).
Instead of 4x Spell Pierce right now, I'm playing 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Envelop (which can come in against Miracles).
I know some people have been playing Null Rod to help with Miracles. Pithing Needle seems fine too. Artifact/Enchantment answers are great vs them since they aren't going to bring in those types of answers against us (and if they do, we're super happy).
Working on reassembling this deck (considering the price tag, not an easy feat). What have to ask, however, is if Bob is widely accepted--and if Tombstalker has finally gone out of vogue.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Depends on what you want to fight, I'd say. Generally from what I've observed, those two slots are usually either Tombstalker, Bob, or TNN.
Here's the pros/cons as I see them:
Tombstalker: best against the non-white, non-combo decks, ie: Jund, RUG, BUG variants, Nic Fit (try Deeding that guy away!)
Bob: great vs combo, ok vs control, bad vs Aggro
TNN: bad vs combo, good vs control, good vs aggro, worst of the three on your manabase
@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.
@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.
The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.
Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately.
im still a huge fan of stalker over confidant.
I think that the reason Nimble Mongoose is used less in BUG (as opposed to RUG) is twofold:
First, RUG hits threshold more quickly. With Stifle and Lightning Bolt, graveyards fill up more quickly.
Second, BUG has other strong finishers. RUG is limited to Delver, Goyf, and Mongoose. With BUG, you get DRS, Goyf, Dark Confidant, Tombstalker, and TNN. Therefore, you have other bodies that can close out the match.
RUG is also in love with 1 cc spells, whereas BUG ventures in the 1-3 cc range.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I agree with your Spell Pierce argument; part of why I am returning to BUG (over, say, UWr, RUG or Jund) is the versatility of it's spells. Golgari Charm (a card I have always thought highly of) has applications in many matchups; likewise, other cards we run should reflect this, like Pierce.@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.
@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.
The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.
Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately.
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
It's an interesting philosophical difference in SB cards. Of course Spell Pierce is the most versatile, but it's also the least backbreaking as opposed to more specific hate cards. I like having a few haymakers for each matchup since with 4x Brainstorm / Ponder, there's a decent chance you'll see it in any given matchup.@Barbed: I still love Stalker. Last tourney I failed, but the two before I went top-8. Stalker is a different card, and represents a different style. Stalker just finishes games quickly. Confidant draws cards that in turn should win the game for you. It's more of a long term thing. The only thing right now that might draw me towards Confidant is that everyone seems to be siding grave hate against me these days. That does make Stalker suck ass every now and then.
@Esper: maybe you're right about siding out all Stalkers. In the second Miracles match I kept one because I felt I wanted as many threats as possible, but indeed Jace laughs at the demon.
The reason I run the full list of Pierces is that Pierce is the most versatile from the three. Having a one-of Envelop in your hand when the opponent casts a Silence or Sneak Attack makes me want to rip my hair out. Fluster already has more applications, but that also doesn't stop Sneak Attack. Or Blood Moon, for that matter. I feel being consistent, but consistently weak against 6+ lands, is better than running the risk of having the wrong spell at the wrong time. It also reduces the chance of misplaying, because you know what to expect. But do you side in Envelop against Miracles? It only counters Terminus. An important one, granted, but still a one-of against one playset from the opposing deck? Seems risky.
Do you run Peedle or Rod in your sideboard? Or do you still have the Tar Pit? That also seems like an option. Right now by the way, I decided to go -1 Disfigure, +1 Sylvan Library on side. Sylvan is an absolute gem against all midrange and control, and I've been running into a lot of that lately.
From my experience with the Miracles matchup, the key spells to stop are Sensei's Diving Top, Terminus, and their game winners (Jace, Entreat). Top is very powerful and allows them to mitigate our discard but a resolved Top isn't a guaranteed immediate backbreaker. If they get to resolve Terminus against us, that is usually going to set us very far behind unless you've been sandbagging guys in your hand. So while Envelop is narrow, I like it more than Spell Pierce since it's a hard counter against Terminus/Entreat.
I don't play Needle or Null Rod right now because I'm still playing 2 TNN in the main so I have a little more of an edge vs Miracles than the normal Tombstalker / Bob builds.
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