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Thread: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

  1. #21

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Seriously: I am tired of seeing decks like this. It's just a bunch of good cards thrown together as a 4-off each. I see neither any synergies nor any innovation. It looks like BG Suicide, only that is was designed as UB.

    The development process likely was: "Hey, let's make some UB aggro deck. Just take the black part from an already good aggro deck (Suicide Black/Eva Green) and then just add in some good blue cards (Brainstorm, FoW, Daze, Stifle), that Threshhold runs already. It can't be bad."
    And in the end you thought "well, let's splash green to add Tarmogoyf".
    Then make every card a 4-off and tell us you invented a new deck.
    Come on, where's the innovation here? Anyone and my grandmother can post a decklist like this. Not that is bad or something, but it is boring as hell.

    And why is this deck in Established Decks forum? only because it made Top4 once?

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    Last edited by Peter_Rotten; 10-20-2008 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I agree with TheLion.

    I play a deck like this but there is actual thought to it and the numbers of cards are not 4 of everything. I would post it but I don't think barely missing Top 8 twice by losing the last round qualifies.

  3. #23
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    too bad ITF really have synergies if you look further.

  4. #24
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended),
    Har de har har har, nice joke.

    @ Raharu

    Take a step back and consider the decks manabase for a second, adding a Volrath's Stronghold as a random one of could seriously screw you out of a game. I would say that at the moment we are running about the minimum as far as colored sources of mana go, that is unless you want to risk not being able to play your spells in a timely fashion. Also, the Bayou serves a very important and easy to discern role in the deck. With a Bayou and an Underground Sea in play you can cast any spell in the deck (with 6 cards in the graveyard for tombstalker if you want to get picky), without the Bayou you would need 3 lands to play any spell in the deck since you need to be able to hit double black and be able to hit green to cast tarmogoyf.

    As to suggestions about more threats: Gigapede - How do you expect to cast Gigapede at 5 mana with only 3 green duals in the deck when you want to start by cutting one of said duals? River Boa - This creature seems situational to the extreme, do you want to keep one of your remaining two green dual lands untapped so you can regenerate? Does this provide you with a sufficient clock against combo, after cutting one of your best disruption spells? Does goblins even care? Find me a mana efficient creature that is able to advance this decks gameplan while making up for the loss of the sinkhole/hymn slot and I'll do some testing with it and let you know how it goes.

    Also, in case those paragraphs were TLDR, don't cut the Bayou.

    @ Vacrix

    My opinion on remand is as follows, it might qualify as a personal opinion but maybe you will come to a similar conclusion about why Remand might be an underplayed card: Remand never completely answers a threat, it cantrips you sure, but the point of spending mana to counter a spell is to never see it again. If you spend the mana and take the time and effort to counter a spell it normally means that the spell would be bad for you if it resolved. There is never any circumstance in which remand is a hard counter unlike force or daze. It does not provide you with card advantage and you still need a way to deal with the spell that you remanded. If you want to try it out I encourage you to do so and power to you if it works. I would rather play street wraith (since it takes no mana investment to cantrip you) to draw me into a relevant answer to a game changing spell and Street Wraith will never ever be in this deck. Ever.

    @ Cathal83

    With this deck your dream first turn play against an unknown opponent is thoughtseize with daze in hand, to pull this off you need an Underground Sea in play. While I agree that chalice/trinisphere/blood moon/back to basics decks can be bad for you, I think that adding basics is the wrong approach. With this deck you want to be the aggressor and running basics just to increase your potential percent against a certain archetype will probably also hurt your chances against that same archetype by randomly cutting you off of the color of mana you need early game to make sure your opponent doesn't get their game plan started. Also, basic forest? Am I supposed to just randomly draw into this and kill the dragon stompy player that I failed to stop with my game plan and allowed to land a blood moon with all of my tarmogoyfs? There isn't even a way to fetch it in your list.

    In regards to cutting the Bayou read the first paragraph.

    @ Hanni

    There is an extreme amount of dissynergy (it's probably not a word but you should know what I mean) between Nimble Mongoose and Tombstalker
    so I'll just ask: what would you have me cut for Nimble Mongoose and is Nimble Mongoose actually better than the card you want to cut? Note: Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are much better threats, you should probably keep around the 20 blue cards to properly support Force of Will, leaving the other two black slots which are a very important disruption spell and the deck's only maindeck removal. Also, there seems to be dissynergy between tarmogoyf and tombstalker but in testing and in match play so far this has never been an issue and I'm sure that this has been covered somewhere in the Eva Green thread.


    @ TheLion

    Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
    Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.

    What card would you like to run as less than a 4 of? Every card in this deck you want to see as early as possible depending on the matchup. If you feel this way about this deck you have never played then feel free to not look or comment - it is your choice - but keep in mind that your fellow sourcers see your posts and if you ever create a deck that does extremely well at a legacy event of this size, and you know, plays good cards, people might be reluctant to leave you feedback or even care, so please be respectful.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    That being said this deck was a blast to play and worked pretty well against the field. Some matchups I would like to see discussion on improving would be Ichorid and fast aggro decks, destroying all of Peter Rotten's lands then dying to 3 one drop creatures was no fun :(. It's not that I feel this deck needs more threats I would just like to see my threats more often and some of my finish could be chalked up to pure bad luck (like seeing one Tombstalker out of my 8 creatures through 31 cards of my library in round 2). I strongly suggest doing at least a little testing with the deck against various archetypes before posting ways to fix the deck (if it is in fact broken in any way) as it is not quite like anything I've played before.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory.
    What I mainly see in TheLion's post is his observation of the fact that all the cards in this deck have a high power level on their own and don't necessarily complement eachother. There are strong control cards, combined with strong finishers. Each card is on its own a good card. The way this deck may be seen as new and innovative is that it's exactly about that. No CounterTop, StifleNaught, PainterStone where you need two cards to go completely broken. This struck me as 'too easy' at first too, but I must say, the simplicity of it has great potential.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    @ Vacrix

    My opinion on remand is as follows, it might qualify as a personal opinion but maybe you will come to a similar conclusion about why Remand might be an underplayed card: Remand never completely answers a threat, it cantrips you sure, but the point of spending mana to counter a spell is to never see it again. If you spend the mana and take the time and effort to counter a spell it normally means that the spell would be bad for you if it resolved. There is never any circumstance in which remand is a hard counter unlike force or daze. It does not provide you with card advantage and you still need a way to deal with the spell that you remanded. If you want to try it out I encourage you to do so and power to you if it works. I would rather play street wraith (since it takes no mana investment to cantrip you) to draw me into a relevant answer to a game changing spell and Street Wraith will never ever be in this deck. Ever.
    i see your point, but consider this. how relevant is a hard counter? sure it never completely answers a threat, but it digs deeper into your deck, and stalls your opponent for a turn. against aggro, on the play you can counter 1 drops and remand essentially becomes a timewalk. against aggro, on the draw you can counter their 2 drop and it essentially becomes a time walk. why does it matter if you snuff out it next turn or thoughtseize it out of their hand? or even daze it if you waste one of their lands? against control you can remand your own spells making it function like a hard counter in some sense. against combo they still have to build up to playing their business spell. if the opponent plays AdN by playing Dark Rit and sacing LED in their upkeep, how relevant is the fact that they have it back in their hand when you will kill them before it even matters? remand is underplayed because people do not see the obvious advantages that result from it. i have always found it to be a phenomenal draw against aggro especially and its decent enough against the other 2. i mean, you had a choice i bet you would run 4 timewalk in here. its just too good an oppurtunity to pass up. but ya if you don't want to run it i can see why. but is sinkhole really that much better? everything else seems like an extremely strong draw all the time, though the synergy between it and daze is pretty good.

  7. #27
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    against aggro, on the play you can counter 1 drops and remand essentially becomes a timewalk. against aggro, on the draw you can counter their 2 drop and it essentially becomes a time walk.
    No. They still get to draw a card and have a land drop. Remand doesn't even come close to a Time Walk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    i mean, you had a choice i bet you would run 4 timewalk in here.
    Remand is not a Time Walk. Stop thinking it is.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I put toghether a quite similar deck some time ago and the low threat density turned out to be its major flaw, too. This kind of deck does want to play aggressivly and have a big boy on the table by turn 3. To make sure you can do that consistantly I think you need to up the threat count to 10.

    Another reason for that change is the weak lategame those kind of decks tend to have: the LD plan is likely to have failed if you reach turn 18; Sinkholes, Stifles, Daze and Thoughtseize kinda suck now plus there's no way you can establish control due to the entire lack of CA engines like CB or Bob. The bottom line is: adding 2 more threats lowers the chance of having to struggle through undesirable lategame scenarios.

    Unfortunately there isn't a single creature out there that could complement the overall strategy. As prerequisites it should boast a max. of CMC 3 (2 would be better), no double color cost, be strong on its own (no other conditions like threshold). Evasion would be good. Somebody please enlighten me if I missed an obvious choice here..
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  9. #29
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    How is this more proactive than thresh... Thresh plays more than 8 creatures, the same cantrip/draw engine and has more solid removal with counterbalance. But at the same time I guess proactive doesn't necessarily mean threat density.

    The deck does seem pretty cool though and grats on the finish.

    Also, to thelion, if you read his opening post he actually tells you how the deck came about, he didn't just throw a whole bunch of good cards together and say 'ta-daaa'...

    As far as your claim the deck doesn't have synergy well then... are you kidding me? What's your definition of synergy?
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  10. #30
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    This deck is insane, I just played against it there was squat I could do. Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland and Daze just gave my opponent so much tempo and then he just dropped Tombstalker and I was history. Great deck, very elegant design a great job guys!

  11. #31

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    @ TheLion

    Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
    Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.
    What I mean, is that this deck looks so boring and so obvious like Burn.dec, which just packs the best burn spells available. It is nothing really new. It is just another twist with UB staple cards, we see in every deck, tried out in a new mix.
    Take the best (good on their own) UB cards and splash Tarmogoyf. Nothing more.
    I miss synergies such as in Armageddon Stax, Pox or Aggro Loam. Well, Daze + LD is a synergy, but a very small one. Playing Thoutseize is of course none.
    However, I really think this deck is good, just nothing special.

  12. #32
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I've already mentioned how I think this deck is awesome. There is pretty close to nothing I would change about it.

    Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker -- Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole instead of Dreadnought and Vision Charm. This is a pretty obvious set of swaps, so I should have thought of it. (Though clearly, that makes it not Dread Stalker any more -- they're two different decks).

    Many of you are totally misreading this deck. This is one of the most aggressive decks in the format. Would you play Volrath's Stronghold in Suicide Black? Would you play Gigapede in Thrash? You wouldn't play them here either.

    As regards the "lack of synergy" and "unimaginative" comments, I think this is one of those decks which seems completely obvious in hindsight, but needed a stroke of genius to have been first discovered. It's as if no one in the past -- what, five? -- years had discovered Threshold as a deck, and someone had just now built it. And yeah, there's no blindingly in-your-face synergy like "holy shit, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top are a combo!", but every card in the deck is nonetheless focused pretty single-mindedly on advancing the game plan. (Basically: by the time the opponent gets to resolve spells which matter, very big monsters for very little mana have reduced their life to very unpositive levels). It's not just a collection of very good cards. It's a collection of very good cards which work very well together. The deck has synergy in the same way Sligh and all the other classic archetypes of Magic have synergy. (EDIT -- And yeah, like Burn. If no one until now had ever thought of building a deck full of efficient burn spells, I would call it a pretty imaginative idea.)

    Incidentally, this is a very clear example of a deck I would not play Extirpate in. What was the thinking on Crypt versus Leyline?

    And am I right in thinking that the next best threat for this deck after Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf (if you want one) is likely to be Sea Drake?

    (Have I mentioned I love this deck? Also.)

    EDIT again --

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
    What I mean, is that this deck looks so boring and so obvious like Burn.dec, which just packs the best burn spells available. It is nothing really new. It is just another twist with UB staple cards, we see in every deck, tried out in a new mix.
    Take the best (good on their own) UB cards and splash Tarmogoyf. Nothing more.
    I miss synergies such as in Armageddon Stax, Pox or Aggro Loam. Well, Daze + LD is a synergy, but a very small one. Playing Thoutseize is of course none.
    However, I really think this deck is good, just nothing special.
    +1. I'm also bored by those decks. Especially the aggrocontrol ones. It's quite easy to throw together some great cards and do well. I did some testing with a list I threw together in like 10 minutes and it just did well, because it's goodcards.deck

    // Lands
    1 [UNH] Swamp
    4 [U] Underground Sea
    4 [A] Tropical Island
    1 [7E] Island (2)
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

    // Creatures
    4 [FD] Trinket Mage
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
    1 [FUT] Tombstalker

    // Spells
    1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
    2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [SC] Stifle
    4 [LRW] Ponder
    4 [FNM] Brainstorm
    3 [CS] Counterbalance
    3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
    SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
    SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

    Note that this deck has also a lot more sinergies than Team America.

    That obviously doesn't mean Team America is just a bad deck nor that it isn't capable of doing well. We're just pointing out that it's nothing new or exciting. Everyone with free 5 mins (and maybe 1 afternoon testing) could do that.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Illissius View Post
    Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker -- Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole instead of Dreadnought and Vision Charm.
    Yeah, that's what we were talking about.
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  14. #34

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by Illissius View Post
    Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker
    Yes, as GreenOne already stated, this is exactly what I am talking about.
    Too many decks pack the same 50-55 cards over and over again and are presented to the community as a completely new deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illissius View Post
    I think this is one of those decks which [...] needed a stroke of genius to have been first discovered.
    You make jokes.

  15. #35
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
    It's just a bunch of good cards thrown together as a 4-off each.
    And why exactly is that bad? It played well, didn't it?

    Also, I kind of assumed it would be a UWR deck. I love the simplicity, as I'm a big fan of 4-ofs. Good job.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by sasa_batora View Post
    FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize. These are 12 spells to combat Moon and with Snuff Out, there are 16 of them against Magus.
    There are no TA Swamps with Magus online: "no Swampies=no Snuffy Outy"

  17. #37
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    @ Cathal83

    With this deck your dream first turn play against an unknown opponent is thoughtseize with daze in hand, to pull this off you need an Underground Sea in play. While I agree that chalice/trinisphere/blood moon/back to basics decks can be bad for you, I think that adding basics is the wrong approach. With this deck you want to be the aggressor and running basics just to increase your potential percent against a certain archetype will probably also hurt your chances against that same archetype by randomly cutting you off of the color of mana you need early game to make sure your opponent doesn't get their game plan started. Also, basic forest? Am I supposed to just randomly draw into this and kill the dragon stompy player that I failed to stop with my game plan and allowed to land a blood moon with all of my tarmogoyfs? There isn't even a way to fetch it in your list.

    In regards to cutting the Bayou read the first paragraph.
    Fair enough. I would at the very least like to see some basic lands run in the side board for the purpose of dealing with such match ups as Dragon Stompy. Of course that could entirely be a meta call, but I think for an unknown Meta it could be a very strong strategy!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    @ TheLion

    Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
    Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.

    What card would you like to run as less than a 4 of? Every card in this deck you want to see as early as possible depending on the matchup. If you feel this way about this deck you have never played then feel free to not look or comment - it is your choice - but keep in mind that your fellow sourcers see your posts and if you ever create a deck that does extremely well at a legacy event of this size, and you know, plays good cards, people might be reluctant to leave you feedback or even care, so please be respectful.
    I completely agree with this Comment, Bourgeoise! You do not usually need negative feedback on a deck thread. That doesn't mean that you aren't going to get such negative feedback. However it isn't usually welcome. My answer to negative feedback is usually to ignore it however.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeoise View Post
    That being said this deck was a blast to play and worked pretty well against the field. Some matchups I would like to see discussion on improving would be Ichorid and fast aggro decks, destroying all of Peter Rotten's lands then dying to 3 one drop creatures was no fun :(. It's not that I feel this deck needs more threats I would just like to see my threats more often and some of my finish could be chalked up to pure bad luck (like seeing one Tombstalker out of my 8 creatures through 31 cards of my library in round 2). I strongly suggest doing at least a little testing with the deck against various archetypes before posting ways to fix the deck (if it is in fact broken in any way) as it is not quite like anything I've played before.
    fair enough, I will have to do some testing... unfortunately I can't proxy the deck up at the moment... so I am not entirely sure how exactly I am going to do that testing...
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  18. #38

    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    I've been trying a similar deck these last days, but black as main color and lowcost spells to support confidants.

    That's my list:

    Creatures (11):

    4xDark Confidant
    4xTarmogoyf
    4xHypnotic Specter
    3xNantuko Shade

    Spells (28):

    4xDark Ritual
    4xHymn to tourach
    4xDuress/Thoughtseize (still have to test alot if bob can support this loss of life)
    4xSinhole
    4xSmother
    4xDaze
    4xMana Leak

    Lands (21)

    4xPolluted Delta
    2xWindswept Heath
    4xUndergound Sea
    3xBayou
    4xSwamp
    4xWasteland

    Sideboard (15)

    4xLeyline of the Void (or Tormod... playing Bob)
    2xBlue Elemental Blast
    2xHydroblast
    4xKrosan Grip
    3xPernicious Deed

  19. #39
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    Hey,

    Really congratz on the result, the deck looks really great.

    As an big fan of tombstalker, eva green and the movie team america, I like this deck very much, but I have a few questions:

    Do you never run out of beats sometimes? Would shadowmage infiltrator, trygon predator, serendib efreet or the one thats already mentioned, sea drake be good in this deck? Maybe as an 2-off?

    Do you ever have troubles with casting sinkhole or hymn if you play it, because there double black? Have you tested spell snare in those slots, maybe it could be really good?

    And about the side, dont you miss jitte or plague vs goblins and other aggro decks? And why did you chose crypt over leyline or extirpate?


    Maybe i'm gonna play this deck over eva green in the Dutch open championship because with the big amount of combo decks here in the dutch meta I think this deck would be better than eva.


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  20. #40
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    Dec 2006
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    Re: Team America - Ubg aggro control

    As for the comments about losing to Blood Moon: yes, this deck does lose to blood moon and also packs it Dragon Stompy like no one's business. Trinisphere, Moons, and chalice are all absolutely terrible for this deck, so much so that even when we shuffled up my list of Dragon Stompy and played against invisible god-hands from this deck, DS won half of them.

    Consider this, though, how many people play Dragon Stompy? At the Source tourney, I knew of 3 total out of 127 (?). Is that relevant? I think that rather than screwing the deck to add a small chance to beat a bad matchup, you should focus on making it better against the vast majority of decks out there. Not to mention Dragon Stompy is a really mediocre deck (don't bother arguing this, I am right), so your chances of seeing it as a tournament progress decreases as you win.

    This deck also beats on random chaff really well.
    Red Wizard needs food badly!

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