[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[nitewolf9]

What about Shadowmage Infiltrator? I know it's been mentioned before, but I haven't seen a comment on it. Too slow?

Precisely. He just doesn't end the game quickly, and the 3cc hurts. Obviously drawing extra cards is good but that's not really how this deck wants to win. Hypnotic specter would be a better creature for the purpose of creating CA, but he's not blue and also costs 3.

Honestly, there was only 1 game all day that I got screwed on by not drawing a threat in time. And that just happens with every deck. In testing the 8 threats have been fine.

[conboy31]

I plan on sleeving this deck up and giving it a try. As for the debate over what other creatures could supplement the deck instead of stifle... what choices are on the same level as: A) Sea Drake B) Serendib Efreet. Despite the decks minimal curve I think having daze and sea drake would be less than stellar. Efreet is fairly efficient and evasive but certainly not a huge threat with no equipment. Equipment can't be added due to room and the blue count.

[Happy Gilmore]

The list for the most part is as tuned as it gets. As said before the discussion of Hymn vs. Sinkhole is the only thing I can think of as far as maindeck changes. The deck doesn't need more threats, it doesn't need to change. I personally would like to find room in the main for 2x SDT, but I get this feeling that the deck may not be able to support its mana dependency. I was hoping the deck could sport a 1SDT, 3 CB sb option. Although, I can't really think of a matchup I want to bring it in for that hasn't already been covered by other SB cards.

Regarding Threshold Matchups,

5c is slightly ahead in the brief testing we did thus far. Thoughseize/CB/STP/Mystic Enforcer/and Goose do a great job in this matchup. And it seems that even when the opponent draws 2-4 LD effects it really doesn't seem to matter. Many times I would just drop a turn 2 CB and ride it to victory with cantrips alone.

The matchup is probably about 55-45 in 5c's favor. I want to think that lists without CB are much much worse although, the Stifle/waste package of UGR Canadian thresh plus Spell snare might give the deck fits. And Moon seems like it could be a real beating. All in all it is probably 50-50, which is prity amazing when you take into account that the deck doesn't play CB itself.

[aTn]

While we're at it (it might be a stupid idea), but why not Trigon Predator in a CB-Top infested meta (in particular against Threshold - who almost always plays CB in my meta) ?

Thanks for the tips and comments Deep6er (and others)...

I think I'll run Hymns in the Sinkhole slots and see where it takes me against Threshold.

The random fast aggro (or vial based aggro a la counter slivers) seems a pain. Guess I'll see when I test it.

[Isamaru]

Am I missing something? The rowboat does exist. It's called Dandân.

[Deep6er]

Dandan has an ass of one, while having Islandhome instead of Islandwalk. Very different.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

What about something like Benthic Djinn or Moroii? They're pretty beefy and pitch to FoW too.

[Illissius]

And am I right in thinking that the next best threat for this deck after Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf (if you want one) is likely to be Sea Drake?

[nitewolf9]

Sea Drake is probably the next best thing, but I don't think it's necessary.

[socialite]

Sea Drake is nifty, but to be honest, not running Chrome Mox like Faerie Stompy pretty much takes away the brokenness of the card. For it to actually return 2 lands is less than stellar especially since its a 4/3 for 3 CC Non Black allowing it to be killed by pretty much every form of removal in the game.

Im going to have to call out Sea Drake as being garbage -in this deck- especially with the inclusion of Daze already.

On a side note can people stop suggesting fucking terrible cards/deck lists. It is really non-productive. Some of you guys aren't even close to having suggestions that are on par with what this deck is trying to do to the extent that I go WHAT when I read some of the posts. Like mom always said if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it. Yes I realize I just broke that rule.

Edit: Perhaps Dave and Nightwolf should list cards already tried, as opposed to "did you try this, would XXXXXXX work?".

[Deep6er]

I'll go through the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Bitterblossom
Quirion Dryad
Vinelasher Kudzu
Street Wraith
Accumulated Knowledge
Hymn to Tourach
Spell Snare
Smother
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Confidant
Yixlid Jailer
Predict
Rushing River
Wipe Away
Nantuko Shade
Force Spike

That's the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I'll probably remember more as time goes by.

Important note, all of them were bad. Or, for whatever reason, I didn't like them.

To continue, I like Sinkhole a lot more than I like Hymn to Tourach. I think having 12 disruption spells that target land allow you to devastate any deck that looks to reach three or so lands. Or decks that rely on multiple colors.

[nitewolf9]

We also tried dreadnought (randomly amazing, but mostly garbage).

That was in the main for a bit a while back, then in the board over diabolic edict (for zoo/sligh type decks).

[johanessen]

Maybe Hypnotic Specter... the BB i suppose may be a pain...

What about a couple of Anavolver? Too slow??

[socialite]

Maybe Hypnotic Specter... the BB i suppose may be a pain...

What about a couple of Anavolver? Too slow??

This is a joke right?




As far as Sinkhole versus Hymn to Tourach. I really have to side with Nightwolf. Sinkhole complements Stifle and Wasteland far to well. Fetches, Basics, and Non Basics all get hit by this deck. Replacing it with Hymn allows basic lands to be a factor.

Sinkhole is a scalpel, Hymn is a Bazooka. Its to much of a shot in the dark compared to Sinkhole which seems like it would be much more effective when paired with Stifle and Wasteland.

Edit: I have been racking my brain lately for an additional creature to add to this deck but so far nothing good has come up. Upon actually playing with this deck Im not so sure it even needs it. Both Goyf and Stalker are solid clocks once they drop for obvious reasons. The ability of this deck to just play the suicide role is incredible, denying opponents the of the basic necessity of land is just too good in this format which allows only 8 threats to be relatively effective.

[Illissius]

What about using Seal of Primordium in the sideboard instead of Krosan Grip? How often do your opponents manage to assemble Countertop through all your disruption? (Honest question -- I don't know.)

[nitewolf9]

We actually thought of trying out seal, but grip is just better in the matchups where you need it (namely threshold). Taking care of Top or killing counterbalance relatively reliably is what you need for that matchup. Against control I'd probably want seal over grip, even control with counterbalance, but threshold tends to see more play.

I will note that seal is generally much better against chalice aggro, so it's not entirely out of the question depending on what you expect.

My opponents were able to assemble counter top through my disruption a good amount of the time, but the problem was that they wouldn't have many resources to devote to putting a threat on the table afterwards (or answer a threat of mine), and I would just cast a tombstalker and snuff out their goyf through their counerbalance and win. It literally happened just like that in about 3 games. On the flip side, I did lose to counterbalance in a couple of games as well.

[lolosoon]

I've playtested this deck a bit and I'm loving it ! It's like a controlish Eva Green, a deck I've played a lot this lasts months.

Still, I have some trouble against burn and Swan Thresh.

The first due to their quick clock and stifle-wasteland proof manabase, the later due to the stifle, daze and spellSnare that counter a bunch of my manadenial plan (sinkhole is quite useless), and their own stifle+wastelands that occasionnaly cripple my own manabase (the burn to the dome finish is painful too).

The 4 BEB-like effects seem to be not enough vs burn, as the edicts vs Thresh (to avoid too much pain from the SnuffOuts I always switch them) not convincing.

In short, switching from Eva Green to this deck seems to have not improved my bad matchup (except fast combo vs which it is more consistent).

I'm not accustomed yet to 'team america' (man this name feels so cocky !) so it might be the pilot and not the deck, but have you encountered the same troubles ?!



Moreover, I dislike Crypts in SB. I'd rather put Extirpates in that slot cause it's quite good vs Ichorid (plus it dodges needle and bounce), but is a better card to side in (in place of SnuffOut) vs combo like Fetchland Tendrils and ANT where snuffOut, BEB, Grips and Edicts are useless.


Whadoyathink ?

[nitewolf9]

Is burn a good deck all of a sudden? Seriously, 4 blasts is plenty against them. Just focus on sticking an early tarmogoyf or stalker and finding cheap countermagic. It's definitely not like you're playing counter/top against them (where they'd just lose outright), but if you want a good board card because burn is everywhere for some reason, then try hymn to tourach (probably over edict). That card bends them over a barrel.

As far as swan thresh, does that deck actually play stifle/wasteland? I did testing against Canadian Thrash and was ahead in the matchup, but it seems like getting to 4 mana would be difficult for swan thresh to do. Blood moon is a beating though. THAT's the card I'd worry about.

Oh yeah, and extirpate is terrible against ichorid. Crypt beats them. We tested this. Alot. Also, I don't think your tendrils matchup needs more help.

[Deep6er]

I've playtested this deck a bit and I'm loving it ! It's like a controlish Eva Green, a deck I've played a lot this lasts months.

Still, I have some trouble against burn and Swan Thresh.

The first due to their quick clock and stifle-wasteland proof manabase, the later due to the stifle, daze and spellSnare that counter a bunch of my manadenial plan (sinkhole is quite useless), and their own stifle+wastelands that occasionnaly cripple my own manabase (the burn to the dome finish is painful too).

The 4 BEB-like effects seem to be not enough vs burn, as the edicts vs Thresh (to avoid too much pain from the SnuffOuts I always switch them) not convincing.

In short, switching from Eva Green to this deck seems to have not improved my bad matchup (except fast combo vs which it is more consistent).

I'm not accustomed yet to 'team america' (man this name feels so cocky !) so it might be the pilot and not the deck, but have you encountered the same troubles ?!



Moreover, I dislike Crypts in SB. I'd rather put Extirpates in that slot cause it's quite good vs Ichorid (plus it dodges needle and bounce), but is a better card to side in (in place of SnuffOut) vs combo like Fetchland Tendrils and ANT where snuffOut, BEB, Grips and Edicts are useless.


Whadoyathink ?

I fail to see how you're having troubles against Burn. Sinkhole is stellar against them, while counter magic is insanely good against them. Burn is like an awful combo deck. Every single card you stop slows down the combo by a turn.

Swan Thresh? Why are you having trouble against that? They have dead cards in the form of Swans and their burn can't really hit your creatures. Even if they're playing Stifle + Wasteland, it's not all that big a deal. Your mana base is functionally more stable than theirs.

I've never encountered troubles like the ones you're mentioning. Don't switch the Snuff Outs for Edicts. That's not how it's supposed to work. The Edicts complement the Snuff Outs and ensure that they never have enough creatures so that your Tarmogoyf will go the distance. Don't be afraid of life loss. I can't stress that enough.

Extirpate? That card is fucking awful. It doesn't beat Ichorid. Why the hell do you want extra cards against Combo? You said it yourself, the build is more consistent against fast combo. Crypt is strong against Ichorid. Extirpate is fucking terrible, and it sucks. Period. That card does not deserve inclusion in this deck. Board in Blasts and beat Combo anyway.

Ichorid is already a rough match up. Don't make it worse by playing Extirpate instead of Crypt. That's just a bad idea right there.

[jericohs@cottage]

It's good though...Why would a deck such as eva green need blue though...ever. LOL Anyone? Anyone care to join in? I thought 4x sinkhole, 4x wasteland, 4x thoughtseize, 4x hymn de tourach was enough disruption that there would be nothing left to stop eva???

I guess my question is why play this over Eva Green?