Pact cannot answer a T1 Lackey.
Just a crazy idea:
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
4 U. Sea
9 UGB Fetchlands
2 Trop Island
2 Bayou
Comments?
@ eirirlar: What do you wan't us to comment on? Isn't Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker infinitely better than Quirion Dryad? Are your planning to Stifle Pact's upkeep-trigger? You run Stifle and Sinkhole, but no Wastelands?
The 4-of summoner pacts are just total wtf-are-you-thinking inclusions
Agreed that was just random. 4 Lim duls vault should do the trick of finding or boosting dryad though.Originally Posted by say no to scurvy
Admittedly I haven't tested dryads in this deck but i'm inclined to. And it hasn't been discussed in this thread before. Tombstalker and goyf do have somewhat contradicting abilities although theyre both good on their own. Question is, with all the counters discard and mana denial, is it possible that dryad could be just as good or better than goyf?
Don't know yet. Dryad can get large. Tombstalker eats goyfs food.
Yeah I thought sinkholes would be better since they grow dryad and as there's not too much to use wastelands colorless mana on.You run Stifle and Sinkhole, but no Wastelands?
Regarding stifle, and forgive my ignorance if this has been brought up before, if its main use (?) in this deck is to stop wastelands and fetches, isn't interdict a possible replacement? Its more limited but produces card advantage.
No offense, but you should play the stock deck longer before trying to change it. These suggestions are terrible. TA doesn't win by using bad cards like Summoner's Pact and Q Dryad. It wins by casting a 5/6 for 2 or a 5/5 flyer for 2.
Take out the bad cards and Sinkhole and replace with the normal, good creatures and work in Jace.
I t8ed the RIT event. Coming soon, a chronicle of debauchery and wizardry starring myself, rsaunder, nick and warden.
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Sweet, looking forward to it.
Whats the general consensus on Sylvan Library in the deck?
I have no idea on what I want in my sideboard. I've been running a 20 card sideboard for testing purposes but still havent decided. Here's what I'm thinking for now:
2 Engineered Plague
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Dispel/Spell Pierce/Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pernicious Deed
Last edited by sa17dk; 09-12-2010 at 01:29 AM.
Nice work. I assume a whip was ghost rode?
they haunt minds...
I'm thinking of resurrecting my old Dreadstalker build that was discarded a long while back but I think it might have some chance in the meta again since the reprinting of spell pierce.
Just a list to share out, since it fits in the TA playstyle of mana denial + disruption + tempo. The idea is big beats:
TA Big Beats:
Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Beaters:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Cantrips/counters/disruption
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
8 metaslots (Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Rushing Rivers, Submerge, Mind Harness whatever)
The philosophy is:
1) Tempo tempo tempo. If you fail this e.g. CB resolving, Pridemages resolving, Moat resolving, you failed the deck.
2) Your creatures are the biggest and most efficient in Legacy: Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, therefore all you care is them resolving, beating and staying protected, therefore 4 Daze + 3 Pierce is a must against any form of removal. Spell Snare is there mainly to counter the biggest weaknesses of the deck: Counterbalance, Survival, Pridemage, etc
3) Use your stifles on lands most of the time. Vision Charm in the old dreadstalker build was a good utility card that fueled Tombstalkers, acted as stifle 4-6 for Dreadnoughts, and can tempo a turn by converting opponents lands to Mountains during upkeep.
I have been wanting to remake this deck again, after realizing that Spell Pierce MD performs even more crucially than in classic TA lists. Since you have the additional dreadnought as a win-condition, all you care about is countering any removal that targets the nought, so Spell Pierce MD becomes a litte more relevant than in classical TA lists. Obviously with the inclusion of Dreadnought, you are more prone to hate and relying on nought to win games BUT if you're playing it in this manner on relying on nought to win games, you are playing the deck wrong, i.e. my point above to use stifles on lands at any chance, instead of sandbagging for dreadnought (you still have tombstalkers and goyfs to beat).
If they are boarding grips against Nought, then that's super, take out 3 noughts post-board against grips.dec and put in more tempo cards. Their MD is now jankier and weaker with artifact hate and you proceed to beatdown with the classic TA lists.
It's not a bad idea, and Spell Pierce should be an automatic 4-of. Though I think the Spell Snares are unnecessary if you're running Pierces. Trinket Mage makes sense to me because it can also get a singleton EE. I wouldn't play more than 1 Charm... it's definitely the worst card in the deck. Serving as the 5th Stifle isn't bad, though. You'd end up with something like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Vision Charm
3 Snuff Out
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
I also added another land and switched some duals. I wouldn't drop below 20.
I like the suggestion, it's a more safety-measure zone with Trinket Mage/EE.
However, if I was really that worried with things that are not dealt with, I'd just go 2 EE since it's too slow for a tempo deck to go TRinket Mage-> EE, athough mage does fetch Dreadnought.
I feel that in the game 1, you just really want to create THE solid tempo deck and board in according to the matchups to cover the weaknesses. Spell Snare is weaker in today's meta, but I feel that it hits every weakness this deck faces: Counterbalance, Pridemage and still provides tempo against opposing goyfs/survivals/bobs.
To be a true tempo deck, I feel that Bob needs to be involved since TStalker sometimes doesn't come online on turn 2 as much as we want, but the success of this deck is the fast clock when you can disrupt their removal or answers. I will definitely consider some EE in the SB though. Looks like a solid list, I'll see if I like the 4th Ponder and 4th pierce over the Snares. I have a feeling that 3/3 split does better for this deck (with dreadnought). I've been trying to squeeze 2 cliques in (4 goyfs, 4 stalkers, 3 dreadnought, 2 cliques) making it very threat dense and mana efficient, but I'm not sure what's worth cutting. I'm always tempted to play a tempo deck with no removal but that's a huge risk in not making a mistake and not losing to bad draws and risk your opponents getting a creature through that slows you a couple of turns.
On Vision Charm: this was testing done a long tme ago when I had the deck but with:
3 Dreadnoughts, 2 Charms works best
2 Dreadnought, 1 charm works best
I prefer to play 3 Nought just to get the oops-I-win factor, For 4 Stalkers, 3 Noughts, 2 Charm is the perfect amount to fuel either Nought/Stalker. Even with its change-land-type ability, it's a great ability (weakest argubly) since it often acts like a Chant-effect against certain decks, and it also provides a safety against Merfolk (if the board gets that ugly). It usually buys a turn regardless against certain decks and that's pretty crucial when you're beating on a clock with a tempo deck. I would not underrate it too far. Now, in regular TA without noughts, obviously it's a bad choice, but in this situation, it will free up the use of Stifles on just Noughts, and allow the mature player playing the deck to use Stifles in situations that are most relevant. Trickbind used to be tested in my list, but there's a BIG difference between 2cc and 1cc for this deck.
Something that's a pain is always Chalice/Trinisphere, but at least those decks aren't too popular right now. Wastelock is always a problem, but you are usually the one with the land advantage early game. I guess against aggro loam.decs you can just go for a fast clock hand and keep any relevant counters against their removals and ride a single creature (probably not goyf) to victory.
I'm piecing the deck back together and would like to playtest and provide some matchup results in due time.
Pierce hits most of the problematic cards Snare does like Counterbalance and Survival, plus more: all the removal in the format, all the counters in the format, Blood Moon, Chalice, planeswalkers (Jace!), Natural Order... etc.
It's way more effective than Spell Snare at protecting your threats and yourself. You already have answers to Goyf with your own creatures and Snuff Out. You can still stifle Pridemage, as well. I went down to 2 Nought/1 Trinket Mage and cut a Charm because, as you said, Stifles are better used on lands if you have the opportunity.
Nought is good for the surprise I-Win factor when you have protection (Pierce facilitates this), or when Stifles are dead on their own, but it's not a great primary game plan. Trinket Mage gives you the flexibility to tutor one up, or go for your EE (against a resolved Chalice or zombie tokens, for example) as the situation requires.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...eport&p=488654
The weekend report.
I think 9 threats/10 cantrips is the way to go. I also didn't have Jace in the board (would have played it over a Predator and something else) because Warden was playing them. They wouldn't have been relevant in any of my matchups though.
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I want to force your stifle after you pact, I don't even play a Force deck.
Hey I'm not sure if this has been answered before, but what's the deal with Predict?
I can't fathom why you would run that spell over another cantrip, or even hand disruption.
The only benefit I can imagine is after a Brainstorm/Ponder, you predict the crap card into your GY,
then draw some hopefully good spells, and feed Stalker/Goyf.
That seems awfully techy for a deck that wants to leave mana open for removal/denial/cantrips.
Maybe I'm missing something?
Well it's an instant, so you can leave the mana open. It's got that going for it. Still, I agree it's a bad topdeck and normally requires Ponder or Brainstorm to be advantageous. If you want more draw, Preordain digs just as deep and isn't situational.
Predict was probably better when Mystical was in the format.
Actually I never had problems with just BS/Ponder and fetches.
Also I run 2 Venn Cliques, so sometimes I can get rid of the useless Snuff Out when facing monoblack or something.
A single See Beyond might be better than that, but with Hymns MD I feel like card advantage is a non-issue.
The thing is, a lot of spells Team America casts (eleven if you run 4 Daze, 4 FoW, and 3 Snuff Out) are free, so you don't need to leave mana up to be able to cast them unless fearing tempo counters like Spell Pierce and the aforementioned Daze. Predict is a sweet card because it does exactly what you said it does- gets rid of a worthless draw, draws two, and bins two cards for Stalker for just two mana. In my limited testing, Predict has been one of my favorite cards in the deck. It's not more than a two-of, but it gets the job done.
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