Attempting to Ghastly Demise an active KOTR is a risky play. They could respond with an activation and blow out the spell by fetching Bojuka Bog. Ghastly Demise checks upon resolution the amount of cards in your g/y to determine if the card destroys its target.Originally Posted by Khurtz
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I find that Snuff Out has been incredibly useful for that part and saving the single mana allows you to play a faster Hymn or Snapcaster. The problem I had for Snuff Out was the Stalkers/Confidants but no one plays Stalkers because of Snapcaster and DB takes care of Confidant as well as a wide range of stuff.
BTW a few pages back, there has been a conversation about how useful Stifle is anymore to TA now that Mental Misstep has been banned. I suggest you take a look if you haven't done so.
Also FYI, your decklist you posted on the link said Liliana Vess, but I'm sure you meant "Liliana of the Veil." Just letting you know.
@ Ruckus: While this is true, the situations I used it in involved me having 3-4 more cards in yard than the toughness so it never was really a concern.
@aznepyon7: I do love me some Snuff Out however the superior synergy between Snapcaster and Dismember is what led me to change that to my primary kill spell. As you can't play Snuff Out for the alternate cost with Snapcaster it makes it much less useful despite having to pay the 1 extra for Dismember.
In regards to Stifle I will probably never cut to less than 3 of it as I've been playing this deck long before MM even existed and Stifle has always been beastly. People aren't running any less fetchlands and there are plenty of other targets like Planeswalkers and Stoneforge Mystic to warrant inclusion. Of the matchups I've looked at, Reanimator and Merfolk were the only decks I really disliked Stifle against. Additionally, due to how weak the deck is against Wasteland, Stifle often prevents game losses to lucky Wasteland draws.
You are correct about Lilliana, I've been mixing up the two ever since they were printed : - P
Bojuka Bog removes the entire graveyard.
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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I also like stifle but would you consider that a better investment than Spell Snares/Pierces and T1 discard? That seems to be the more important question. I've found that I like the early discard and counters over the Stifle as the application of Stifle I've found is too limited. But of course my decklist is more of a TA/BUG control hybrid so it may be different for me.
@rukcus: Yeah, for some reason the second part of your sentence didn't register after I read it the first time : - P I believe the situation in which I used Ghastly was directly after KOTR was played so they wouldn't have had the ability to fetch out for Bog. That is something I will need to watch out for though.
@aznepyon7: I still find plenty of utility with Stifle in comparison with the other turn 1 alternatives. Sometimes the psychological effect of having to worry about your opponent Stifling your fetch will result in misplays or slow plays even if you don't have the Stifle. Additionally, I find most matches that I lose are due to Wasteland and adding Snares and Thoughtseizes does nothing to help with that. I've tried upping the land count by 1-2 or running basics but this leads to land flooding. The other thing I like about Stifle, specifically in regards to fetches, is the ability to employ a more aggressive mana denial strategy to make Daze more effective.
Even if you don't run stifle, the psychological effect of a Stifle effect is still there because TA usually runs the card.
MU that are lost because of Wasteland means you should consider rearranging your mana base. It's no secret that TA's fragile mana base is one of the deck's biggest weakness. Better than adding in land is either changing a tempo base deck to a hybrid with BUG control elements or using Life from the Loam maindeck.
The problem with daze is that you usually want to have 2 lands T2 so you can Hymn or lay down a Goyf asap to put on the pressure. Because of this, I've dropped the Daze down to 3 where it is still consistent but does not make me too overly dependent on it. A T1 discard seems to be effective against many decks out there and compared to a more consistent daze, seems to be a bigger pay off due to the increased pressure. The psychological benefits of Daze is still there and to an opponent, 3 or 4 Daze isn't that much a difference, they will still be concerned about it.
New to the forums / discussion, i was wondering if you guys could give me some pointers on my deck. I was trying to keep it tempo oriented instead of heavy control.
Land (21)
3x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
Sorcery (8)
4x Ponder
4x Hymn to Tourach
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Instant (18)
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
2x Snuff Out
Creature (12)
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
4x Delver of Secrets
I am not sure on the inclusion of sylvan library and snuff out. I feel like i am missing some pointed discard. Let me know if there is something fundamentally wrong with my build or i missed something blindingly obvious
I love Sylvan Library. Keep it.
I hate Delver in this deck. In my testing, he has been largely inconsistent about flipping, and becomes underwhelming very quickly. In UR or RUG tempo builds he makes sense because you can facilitate the clock with burn, in BUG you don't really have that option.
Having only 2 maindeck removal is verrrry sketchy. Legacy by and large revolves around creatures, and not being able to answer, say, and opposing Knight of the Reliquary consistently is going to be a problem.
Changes I would make:
-4 Delver
-2 Clique
-1 Land
-1 Daze
+1 Tombstalker
+3 Snapcaster (or if you dislike Snapcaster, +1 Tombstalker, +2 Clique)
+4 Removal (or +2 Removal +2 Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize)
edit: Also, if you decide to use Snapcaster, you'll want your removal configuration to be flashback-able, so no Snuff Out. I personally have been liking 2 Smother, 1 GftT, 2 Dismember, 1 Ghastly Demise. Maybe some Diabolic Edicts if your meta warrants them. Hopefully someday we can get a good 1cmc black removal spell, until then mixing it up seems ideal.
But if you decide to not use Snapcaster, Snuff Out is great in a meta that isn't too burn-heavy.
sounds good i will likely make the following changes:
-4 Delver
-1 Fetch Land
-1 Daze
+2 Tombstalker
+4 Removal
Thanks for the input i will try it out and go from there.
Although I agree with what wcm8 says and his suggestions does make the deck great, TA with Delver is what makes it tempoish. This creature is one of the necessary cards for the tempo version although it may not be great. Opinions will differ on this subject.
Snapcaster is awesome but he's definitely more control oriented. I wouldn't say don't use him, but you shouldn't run 4 of with the current mana base you have.
My suggestion for removal would be Dismember and Go for the Throat. The tempo base version that lacks the Snapcasters would generally have a bit more Dismember/Snuff out than Go for the Throat as you need to cast that Discard/Hymn ASAP.
I don't think Ghastly Demise with Tombstalker is a good idea. Tombstalker eats a lot of cards and Game 2 may have GY removal. That card is a more BUG control card. It will be ever worse if you are planning to run 4 tombstalkers.
I would also suggest considering 3X T1 discard instead of 4X Stifles. They have been excellent for me. Watch your blue count though. Most people agree that 18 is good for consistent 1st turn FoW, but I wouldn't go less than 19-20.
One excellent card I've tried, though it is not technically tempo, is Liliana of the Veil. She is excellent in many match ups and I suggest trying her out. She makes the game against Maverick and Stoneblade much better although those are still not good match ups. Don't use her as early discard or removal. Use her as sustained pressure and you will find her excellent. The best alternative to Jace I've found. She also takes place as some removal. If you run her though, 21 lands may be safer and take out 1-2 creature removal (so you have 4-5 removal). Meta game decision though.
Anybody mind posting a more controllish build? Just ordered some Snapcaster Mages and I'd like to transform my tempo Tombstalker build into the newer version of TA. Thanks!
23-24 Lands
3-4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn
3-4 Spell Snare
2-4 Targeted Discard (Thoughtseize and/or IoK)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster
0-2 Clique/Terravore
2-3 Jace, TMS
1-3 Liliana otV
4-5 Targeted Removal
0-2 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Ponder
0-2 Life from the Loam
0-4 Dark Confidant (rarely)
These seem to be the popular choices for a more controlling build. I'm not a huge fan of this version.
Just wanted to add that the targeted removal is generally 0-1 more Go For the Throat, no Snuff Out, and adding in 1-3 Ghastly Demise.
I rather don't call it a Team America, but it "could" be a BUG more tempo oriented control, so, it runs just like a BUG, but uses many team america "tempo trades" ir order to be fast enought to control tempo and agroo decks. I use Dark confidant as my card advantage engine, and have some unusual choises for a control package, like Daze, without Stifle and any land disruption at all, being something alike team america gamestyle.
I realy would apreciate you guys help. And sorry for my poor english, i'm Brazilian ^^.
This is it. Fell free to make any question or observation as I would be happy to explain all of this. = ]
And yes, I know all about Snapcaster Mage, Even so, I rather have Dark Confidants, as I choose as well to protect then, ir order to maximize their value. I need special help in the manabase as I'm not realy secure about these ones, but I'm sure I don't pretend to use wastelands, and pretend to use some basics....just that.
This is it.
//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Tarmogoyf
//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Go for the Throat
1 Pernicious Deed
//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
So?
I've been pondering removal options in Team America.
-Snuff Out is still pretty insane, but Dismember is functionally similar and can a) kill Bob and Tombstalkers, b) mitigate life loss in the late game, and c) is Snapcast-able in more situations. But it is still situationally better since it costs zero and can take out a big KotR, Terravore, Goyf, Dreadnought, etc.
-Smother might be better than Go for the Throat right now with all the Mishra's Factory running around. Alternatively, maindeck Diabolic Edict isn't bad since there doesn't seem to be as many swarm strategies and stuff like Thrun, Reanimator targets, and Geist of Saint Traft can be answered with it.
-I kind of like the idea of using Shriekmaw. It can answer Emrakul, doesn't get hit by Spell Snare, and can [rarely] be an additional attacker in the late game. But the biggest strike against it (aside from sorcery speed and terror-restrictions) is that can't be snapped back. So this is probably not worth it in most TA lists, though I could see a more controlling BUG list using it.
Ideally we will get a new removal spell in the new set. A 1cmc Terror would be great.
I agree Snuff Out is still better in tempo TA. It can deal with MoM 1st turn (and allow you to have U/B open for a discard or counter) as well as KotR that comes out turn 2 which may circumvent your spell snare. You really need to get rid of KotR ASAP.
I really like Smother but it really is a meta play. I don't really see Affinity too often nor Mishra's so I lean a bit more toward GFtT.
I agree with you also on Shriekmaw. That although I love Shriekmaw, I don't see it being played widely due to Snapcaster in control TA and that Shriekmaw's benefits are very minimal in tempo TA.
I've been saying this for the last 8 months. The relevant threats are all 3cc. Everything else Liliana or spot discard deals with.
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
If you guys are going TEMPO full... why not using Ghastly Demise? Between stifles and wastes, ponder and brainstorms I see if it removing almost everything, without the life loss... If the nightmare about having it and not be able to kill a creature haunt you guys so much you could always use it in place of go for the throat instead of dismember or snuff out...
So it would be something like (for 4 removals)
2 Dismembers
1 Demise
1 Snuff out
Cause dismember is usable early and mid... Demise is a bomb mid and late. Snuff out its strongest tempo or all, but having only one, you garante you will not die from its life loss. (also garante aswers to any color)
Because Demise is GY oriented. Snapcaster is still used in TA, but so is Tombstalker and Tombstalkers just destroys your GY. It won't help game 2 and 3 either.
Smother/GftT should probably have a slot. 5 removal is probably more appropriate in the current meta. It may not be a bad idea to shy away from too many Dismembers due to Maverick. It doesn't answer KotR.
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