Does writing "SB" on the inside of the sleeves (so it's visible over the card) of your sideboard cards constitute outside notes? Why or why not?
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Is it a note from outside the match?
It should be obvious that it is.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I seemed to be the only one at FNM who thought it was illegal, so I figured that I would check.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
A trick that I sometimes use, is keeping my sideboard in different sleeves...
You exchange sleeves with the board/MD, and don't re-sleeve the cards taken out... then you will have empty sleeves to show that you have not de-boarded.
I assume that the point of the original question is basicaly "can i mark the front side of my sideboard cards so i can de-sideboard" easily. This would actualy come in very usefull for me too, since i tend to change my sideboard cards around quite a bit, and sometimes it can be a pain (to the point of having to keep a decklist on me) to remember which version of the sideboard i actualy started teh tournament with.
Wish i had thought of marking the front side of the sleeves...
If writing SB on them isnt allowed, how about just putting a big black dot on one of the corners?
I'd like to start doing the "shuffle your whole 15 card sideboard into deck, then take out 15 cards you dont need (even if its same 15)" cause i'm tired of people knowing that i'm only bringing in 1 card against em.
Marking the sideboard cards would help me enourmously in saving time pulling out the sideboard cards i dont need, in addition to the above mentioned de-siding.
i dont see how that's different from not having the sideboard in sleeves at all.
How is that different than writing "SB"? It's not.
If you need help to desideboard, you can reference whatever kind of notes you want *after* the match; you could even make a black dot on your sleeves as you are sideboarding in your match, as long as you replace those sleeves for the next match.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
By that logic is having a decklist with you outside notes?
Quite obviously, yes.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I figured it wasnt realy different from writing SB... but i was hoping that putting the dot on would be ok, and therefor writing SB would be fine too.
How is doing something like this any different from marking the front of the actual card. Anything from altered cards to even textless stuff (if you happen to have a sideboard composed entirely of textless cards), would be prety much the same thing.... no?
How about if my sideboard cards, and only my sideboard cards were white border, while my whole deck is black border?
and a follow up of "what if i made the borders that way, instead of them being that way to start"?
I know i probably shouldnt persue this line of "questioning" because it will end up with "its not legal, deal with it". But now that the idea of "marking" my sideboard has been put in my head, its tough to drop it, and i'd realy like to know where the rules line would be drawn.
WHAT? having your own decklist is against the rules? what the hell... that just seems completely insane.
EDIT: oh... during the match... ok, that makes sence... i guess.
Artistic modifications are fine, as long as that's all they are. If you only alter sideboard cards or similar, it's outside notes.
The rules line is drawn at notes. No matter what you do, whether it's writing something on the card, marking the sleeve, selecting white border/black border or new face/old face, if the note was made before the match started and it is a note, it is Outside Assistance. You can't do anything to distinguish your sideboard cards from your maindeck cards as a note to yourself because then it's outside notes.
Edit: You can reference notes outside the match. So you can just carry around a copy of your decklist and de-sideboard by looking at it after the match ends, if you're worried you'll forget to de-sideboard?
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
The relevant section from the Universal Tournament Rules:
The relevant section from the Penalty Guidelines:28. Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take brief written notes regarding the current match and may refer to
those notes while this match is in progress. Players are expected to take their notes in a timely
fashion. Players who take too much time will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the
DCI Penalty Guidelines.
During the draft portion of a tournament, players and spectators may not take any notes.
Players may not refer to outside notes during the match. This includes notes from previous
matches of that day.
Cards used in a tournament may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or
artistic modifications. Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card
unrecognizable. If modifications to a card are deemed by the Head Judge to constitute outside
notes or unsporting conduct, the player using such cards will be subject to the appropriate
provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.
132. Tournament Error — Outside Assistance
Definition
A player, spectator, or other tournament participant does any of the following:
• Seeks advice from others once he or she has sat for his or her match.
• Gives advice to players who have sat for their match.
• Any time after arriving at the play table, references notes made before the official beginning of the current
match, including Oracle text that has not been provided by a judge.
These criteria also apply to any deck construction portions of a limited tournament. Additionally, no notes of any
kind may be made during a draft.
Notes made during a match may be referenced during that match or between matches. Notes made outside the
current match may not be referenced once a player has sat for his or her match until after his or her match is
completed.
Examples
A. During a Magic tournament match, a player references sideboarding notes that were created before the
tournament.
B. A player in a Dreamblade tournament references notes about his opponent’s warband after arriving at the
table for his match.
C. A spectator at a Magic tournament points out the correct play to the player, who had not solicited the
information.
Philosophy
Tournaments test the skill of a player, not their ability to follow external advice or directions. Any strategy advice,
play advice, or construction advice from an external source is considered assistance. Notes made during a match are
legal to reference during the match or between future matches.
Penalty
Spectators who commit this infraction may be asked to leave the venue if they are not enrolled in the tournament.Code:Regular Competitive Professional Warning Match Loss Match Loss
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
hmm... Thanks for the detailed explanations. Guess i'll have to drop that idea... realy sounded like a good one too.
On a slightly different topic but still under the heading of legal notes, I've always wondered if you are allowed to make "private" notes during a match and if so can you reference them at any time during the match? So, can I write down my sideboard once the game starts or similarly record play decisions or cards in my own hand throughout the game and not show this note to my opponent?
awesome
All notes are private except for notes that track "free information" like life totals, etc.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So here's a silly question.
What if you were to only have your sideboard be signed?
Like the fifteen cards in your sideboard are all signed by the artist, but no other card in the deck is. How would you rule that?
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
"If modifications to a card are deemed by the Head Judge to constitute outside
notes or unsporting conduct, the player using such cards will be subject to the appropriate
provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines. "
They've got it covered.
Ironbreakers Legacy Team
Level 1 DCI Judge
Mtg is the pinnacle of consistency.
It certainly could look suspicious, but as long as your intent is not to use them as notes, you should be ok. You would have to be able to convince a judge.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
You're being silly, to put it nicely. Don't try to sneak in outside notes, and you're not going to get into trouble for outside notes.
You can look at whatever decklists, notes, or whatever you want to when you're not playing a match.
Chill.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Has anyone that is complaining ever gotten in trouble for this sort of infraction? Probably not. In this case it's very hard to notice unless you do something obvious like writing "SB" on the cards. It probably has to be actively pointed out. So don't say, "This one card is signed, that's how I remember to put it back in my Wishboard for the next game" and you're not likely to get into any trouble.
Also, as a clarification, just because you run 2 copies of a card and they're both foil (or white border, or whatever), it's not likely to be outside notes. In this case I'd look for two things: A) Intent, and B) a distinguishing characteristic. Yes, your 2 SB cards are foil, but do you have other foils in the maindeck? How about other nonfoils in the sideboard.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Sasa, you're just being paranoid. You're never going to get a matchloss for that.
There is a certain amount of trust involved in a game of Magic, anyway. There are many ways to cheat and many ways the rules could be loopholed into players cheating. It's considered cheating - fraud for any judge to abuse their power to give players unjust matchlosses. At the very least, Judges are final arbiters and could easily abuse their power.
Like: Player A took the judge's favorite parking spot. At the start of the first game, the judge takes player A's deck for a deck check, bends all the dual lands, and claims that the person had a marked deck and gives him a DQNR and bans his player pass for 4 years. LOLOL! OWNED!
Seriously... not gonna fucking happen. If the judges hate you enough to give you a matchloss because of a Foil KGrip, you're probably the person at fault for being an asshat somehow.
How bad is your haircut, anyway?
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