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Thread: Outside Notes

  1. #21

    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddian View Post
    Sasa, you're just being paranoid. You're never going to get a matchloss for that.


    There is a certain amount of trust involved in a game of Magic, anyway. There are many ways to cheat and many ways the rules could be loopholed into players cheating. It's considered cheating - fraud for any judge to abuse their power to give players unjust matchlosses. At the very least, Judges are final arbiters and could easily abuse their power.

    Like: Player A took the judge's favorite parking spot. At the start of the first game, the judge takes player A's deck for a deck check, bends all the dual lands, and claims that the person had a marked deck and gives him a DQNR and bans his player pass for 4 years. LOLOL! OWNED!


    Seriously... not gonna fucking happen. If the judges hate you enough to give you a matchloss because of a Foil KGrip, you're probably the person at fault for being an asshat somehow.

    How bad is your haircut, anyway?
    I was under the impression that judges can't deck check you unless asked to do so by your opponents.

    Also, the issue of "marked cards" (artistic modifications, foiling, etc) can and should be checked with the head judge before the event. They generally don't slam you for foils unless your foils are really bent, or if there's a pattern to the foiling in your deck - for example, all your counterspells are foiled but nothing else is, etc. Most judges I've interacted with don't care as long as it's not suspicious and as long as your opponent can tell what the card is without having to look it up.

    If you get a loss because of marked cards, 99% of the time it's your own damn fault.

    Also, there's generally no reason you'd *need* outside notes, unless you have no idea how to play your deck or you've acquired everyone else's decklist beforehand. In either case, the fault lies with you.

  2. #22
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Does writing "SB" on the inside of the sleeves (so it's visible over the card) of your sideboard cards constitute outside notes? Why or why not?
    A little trick is use a different Language or edition to know what is in your SB (this only works if your have something that is SB and MD)

  3. #23
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    A little trick is use a different Language or edition to know what is in your SB (this only works if your have something that is SB and MD)
    That's still outside notes, since you're taking advantage of the fact that cards can be in different languages/borders. Just remember your sideboard, 15 cards is not that many to remember.

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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tosh View Post
    That's still outside notes, since you're taking advantage of the fact that cards can be in different languages/borders. Just remember your sideboard, 15 cards is not that many to remember.
    It not really. It is just a bend of the rules. Granted, it is easy to figure out what you need in your sideboard since you are really boarding 4-8 cards most of the time

  5. #25
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    Re: Outside Notes

    I don't really understand. How can a dot, the letters 'SB' or the artist's signature on your sideboard help people in any kind of way? I assume, at this level of playing, people know their decks and sideboards by heart...so what's the possible abuse here?
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  6. #26

    Re: Outside Notes

    Is there much advantage gained by knowing what cards are in your sideboard? Probably not.

    However, it quickly becomes impossible to tell what notes provide "strategic advice" and which do not, so all outside notes are disallowed.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
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  7. #27

    Re: Outside Notes

    Last edited by Aleksandr; 08-25-2009 at 04:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
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  8. #28
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    I was under the impression that judges can't deck check you unless asked to do so by your opponents.
    We can deckcheck every round and in between every round. Normally it's random (generated by the program) but if there's something that caught our attention we can choose to do a specific table. A bad haircut like sasa_batora's can cause this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Also, the issue of "marked cards" (artistic modifications, foiling, etc) can and should be checked with the head judge before the event. They generally don't slam you for foils unless your foils are really bent, or if there's a pattern to the foiling in your deck - for example, all your counterspells are foiled but nothing else is, etc.
    For foils it's pretty simple: we "slam" the deck down and try to cut on the foils/marked cards. Or we look at the backs and single out ones that stand out, then flip them all over.
    Some judges are REALLy good at this. (thinking of Richard from the Netherlands)

    Quote Originally Posted by sasa_batora View Post
    Yes. Esp. with those lvl 0-1 zealous judges that investigate every piece of dirt on a jimmie hats, but totally miss that the deck contains 59 cards only...
    Not true for as far as I've seen. everyone makes mistakes, but lv1's/0's are usually reminded of proper deckchecking habits quite often (I sure am) and quickly pick up on a decent system to do so. The most "zealous" judges would be some of the higher lv judges, who are far more suspicious of cheating and (unlike the lv1's) don't give the benefit of doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by sasa_batora View Post
    And this is what I wrote about. And what if I do not have another foils in the maindeck? (But have another foils in SB.) Is this enough for someone to see me as a cheater? And my only defense is saying "no, I am not a cheater.. it just happens, that I got exactly those and those cards foiled (altered...)". Is this enough for you to make me go?
    All cases of cheating are thoroughly investigated with written statements from both parties and aren't handed out lightly. All DQ's (which cheating automaticly is unless in some very strict situations) are taken seriously by wizards and are usually checked afterwards with the judge (or that's what I have been made to believe, didn't have to give one out yet).
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    Re: Outside Notes

    i dont see how that's different from not having the sideboard in sleeves at all.
    This way, you have empty sleeves to show that there are cards missing in your board...

    After the match, you can put the cards where they belong again.

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    Re: Outside Notes

    I always just count the cards in my sideboard and check for cards that don't belong there. Always worked just fine.
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    I always just count the cards in my sideboard and check for cards that don't belong there. Always worked just fine.
    If you are constantly playing around with different decks/different board cards/different metas, then this could be an issue... I just save myself from having to think about it... it just comes down to:


    OH! I have empty sleeves... which means...

  12. #32
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    Re: Outside Notes

    It's been said before, but it's worth repeatinging that you can consult whatever decklists, notes, treaties, encyclopaedias, or Mentat advisors you want between matches, such as when de-sideboarding.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    A trick that I sometimes use, is keeping my sideboard in different sleeves...

    You exchange sleeves with the board/MD, and don't re-sleeve the cards taken out... then you will have empty sleeves to show that you have not de-boarded.
    I play my SB without sleeves as of late because I can then buy 3 packs of KMCs/jap. Ultra Pros and sleeve exactly 5 decks with it (5x 60 = 300 Sleeves).

    Wastes less sleeves. Just check your SB after every game (count your sideboardcards, restore your maindeck after a match has finished wtc.). And if the opponent plays Burning Wish or something, ask him to count his SB cards from time to time.

    I guess it's also legal to carry around a copy of your decklist. A guy once had a list with boarding-plans with him and it was legal.
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  14. #34

    Re: Outside Notes

    As has been stated many times in this thread, you can refer to whatever you wish outside your match, but bringing a decklist into your match (with boarding plans or no) would be blatant Outside Assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    I guess it's also legal to carry around a copy of your decklist. A guy once had a list with boarding-plans with him and it was legal.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  15. #35
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by sasa_batora View Post
    So, they start to make childish foil and DCI thingies. And if I choose to play e.g. foil Krosan Grip (in my SB obv.), than it could be outside note. Just because I choose that Grip is not a MD material and that I want it foil. This is stupid.
    I guess it won't matter if SB cards are signed or in a different language, but foils are different from that.

    The reason why foil cards are treated differently is that their texture is different from regular, i.e. normal Magic cards. They have a plastic film which make the cards stiffer, but at the same time, the plastic film reacts to temperature which is the reason why foil cards are never straight or flat, but bent. You can take a foil Basicland or any foil crapcard and try to iron it with a flat iron to make it flat. The card will be flat for the first time of it's life, but after some minutes, after it has cooled down, the film shrinks and you will have a card that is bent even more than before.

    That's the reason why I don't like foils, because judges can force you to substitute them with proxies.

    edit: @cdr: I wasn't aware of that. Learned something again, thanks.
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    That's the reason why I don't like foils, because judges can force you to substitute them with proxies.
    I've heard a lot of people complain about this. Just to get this off my chest:
    if you only play 2 cards foil (PR Demigod and Figure) and the judge can cut your deck to have those cards on top every time, you shouldn't bitch about it. The potential for absue is way too big.
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Elficidium View Post
    I've heard a lot of people complain about this. Just to get this off my chest:
    if you only play 2 cards foil (PR Demigod and Figure) and the judge can cut your deck to have those cards on top every time, you shouldn't bitch about it. The potential for absue is way too big.
    I think it's still fucked up, as all printed wb/bb versions of cards of any language, foils or not, are tournament legal according to Wizards. It can just be a matter of card availability or whatever the reason is for you having foils and non-foils in you deck and sideboard, but I find it suspicious if judges can start ruling stuff like that.

    Of course, some people just are cheating assholes. But still. Stop cashing with those fucking foils if they are so abusable.

    This probably isn't really much of an issue in practice, but it's still dumb.

  18. #38
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    Re: Outside Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Elficidium View Post
    For foils it's pretty simple: we "slam" the deck down and try to cut on the foils/marked cards. Or we look at the backs and single out ones that stand out, then flip them all over.
    Some judges are REALLy good at this. (thinking of Richard from the Netherlands)
    This scares me. I play all my basic lands as foils because everyone knows they look cooler, but I don't spend the extra 20$+ for any other card to be foil in my deck. Would this be considered cheating?

    I have no intent to cheat whatsoever, but if someone plops my deck down and looks at the foil cards, obviously they are gonna see that only the basic lands are foils.

    I have to think that more people than just me are doing this these days.

  19. #39

    Re: Outside Notes

    It is your responsibility as a player to ensure that your deck does not contain marked cards. Foils can become marked easier than normal cards, especially older foils. If your foils are not marked, you're fine. If they are, why are you playing with them?

    If your intent is to cheat by having marked foils, you are indeed headed for a Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials disqualification.

    If your foils are marked but it is determined you did not cheat or intend to cheat, the infraction is Marked Cards - Pattern which carries at game loss at Competitive level enforcement.

    While having all foil lands and no other foils is a cause for suspicion, you are never going to be penalized just because of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    This scares me. I play all my basic lands as foils because everyone knows they look cooler, but I don't spend the extra 20$+ for any other card to be foil in my deck. Would this be considered cheating?

    I have no intent to cheat whatsoever, but if someone plops my deck down and looks at the foil cards, obviously they are gonna see that only the basic lands are foils.

    I have to think that more people than just me are doing this these days.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Outside Notes

    What if I'm prepared for the tournament, and memorize the cards in my sideboard? Is that considered outside notes?

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