Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48

Thread: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

  1. #1
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Togless Tog

    Intro:

    Why does this deck deserve to be here?
    First of all this deck is here in Established Decks because it has proven itself with Ten Top 8’s since April 08. Three of those Top 8’s were last month, one shy of being a deck to watch. Although this deck so far has only been specifically played by French players being a DTB in their country, I believe it has potential in America.

    Why are you writing this?
    Because it’s sad when a deck is almost a DTW and we don’t even have a thread on it. Also I believe this deck is very good and I’ve been playing a list inspired by this deck for a while now and have been getting very good results.

    How was this deck created?
    Essentially a Psychatog deck. Pierre Sommen created this version of Psychatog after the printing of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Tarmogoyf sped up the format and was an obvious inclusion in the deck while Tombstalker replaces Psychatog. Hence the name “Togless Tog” His personal list has pretty much finished testing and has been well defined since June 2008.

    History and Results:

    Placed 6/32 April 19th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15339 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 1/42 May 10th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15954 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 2/40 June 1st 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16759 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 7/49 June 6th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17587 by Thomas Epelbaum
    Placed 1/27 June 15th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17614 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 1/48 August 9th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18786 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 6/44 October 12th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20249 by Jean-Michel Peirani
    Placed 6/109 October 19th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20383 by Cyril Mahe
    Placed 2/39 October 26th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20579 by Pierre Sommen
    Placed 3/45 November 9th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20912 by Cyril Mahe

    Decklist:

    Base List: Pierre Sommen Maindeck Spells:

    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    4 Counterspell

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    3 Intuition
    1 Life from the Loam

    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Pernicious Deed
    1 Engineered Explosives

    My Recommended Changes (With 23 Land most likely cutting Factories)

    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    3 Counterspell

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    3 Intuition
    1 Life from the Loam
    1-2 (Your Choice Intuition Targets)

    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Tombstalker

    3 Pernicious Deed
    3 Engineered Explosives

    Pierre Sommen Manabase: 26x Land

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland
    3 Mishra's Factory
    2 Lonely Sandbar

    Thomas Epelbaum Manabase: 25x Land

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland
    2 Mishra's Factory
    2 Lonely Sandbar

    My Recommended Manabase: 23x Land

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Lonely Sandbar

    Sideboard:

    5 Hydroblast / Blue Elemental Blast
    3 Extirpate
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Smother
    1 Darkblast
    1 Raven's Crime

    Card Explanations:

    Disruption:

    4 Force of Will
    Obvious inclusion in any blue deck. BTW This deck runs 22 blue cards which is fine although there shouldn’t be a problem cutting it down to 20. During sideboarding make sure you don’t have less than 16-17 blue cards in your deck or you will have problems casting Force of Will.
    3-4 Spell Snare
    Makes up for the lack of Daze. Stops turn two plays when you have had only one land drop. Very good against allot of the top cards in today’s metagame. This slot in the past used to be Stifle.
    3-4 Counterspell
    Obvious inclusion in any control deck.

    Card Draw:

    4 Brainstorm
    No explanation needed.
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    Most efficient card advantage in that you can pay for the draw effect in increments of two mana and can use it as early as turn two EOT when your opponent doesn’t play a Counterspell. Much easier cast and see results with than Fact or Fiction or Cunning Wish. This also enables Intuition to turn into a Fact or Fiction like card by getting 3x AK’s, in the right situation this could be the best play especially if for whatever reason you do not have green mana to cast Life from the Loam.
    3-4 Intuition
    Most flexible and powerful card engine in the game. There is no better engine than a Loam engine and it’s very powerful against allot of decks. Also it’s because of how flexible this card is, it’s practically an Instant tutor for three mana and can be used to get a beater or removal in the right situation.
    1 Life from the Loam
    Enables you to return land to use the abilities of Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and Wasteland.

    Threats:

    4 Tarmogoyf
    Best creature in the format. Even control decks need a clock and this is so much better than cards like Morphling since it can come down early against combo and late game you can pay two mana and still have mana open to play cards like Counterspell.
    2-3 Tombstalker
    In order for Psychatog to be good here we would need allot more support cards like Fact or Fiction and Cunning Wish. This deck already has a good enough late game and doesn’t need conditional expensive clunky cards that you can only cast when your already winning. Psychatog also cannot stand up to today’s creature very well since Wizards keeps printing better creatures with each new set. You would have to remove way to many cards to kill a Tarmogoyf. Tombstalker is allot faster than Psychatog and doesn’t need all the support for it. Tombstalker is more synergistic with the deck being immune to your Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deeds. He is also very good in the format with the popularity of Engineered Explosives, Snuff Out, and Counterbalance. Also he is one of the only creatures than can compete with Tarmogoyf since he can actually shrink Tarmogoyf if needed and/or fly over it.

    Removal:

    3-4 Pernicious Deed
    Best and most flexible removal card in the game. This card definitely secures your late game. It’s also one of the strengths of playing these colors.

    1-3 Engineered Explosives
    Essentially a mini-deed. This is played as a 1 of to recur with Academy Ruins.

    Land: 21-26

    Pierre Sommen; 26x Land Mana Base

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    3 Mishra's Factory
    2 Island
    2 Lonely Sandbar
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland

    Other than because it’s a control deck the reason why this deck runs so many lands is because it plays so many colorless lands and it needs such a high blue count. I would also say that the 2x Lonely Sandbar doesn’t count as land as you will never use it for mana and will always cycle it. So that leaves 18x Blue Fetches/Lands 6x Colorless and 2x Lonely Sandbar. In any deck the mathematical correct amount to run of a card to consistently have one in your hand is 16. So we can cut 2x Blue Lands if we think the trade off is worth it. Other pilots of this deck have chosen to cut Blue-Sources and Mishra's Factory’s to fit in either more spells or 1x Bayou and/or 1x Swamp.

    My Recommended Mana Base: 21-23

    (20 Lands)
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland
    1 Lonely Sandbar

    (Then Add 1-6 of These Lands with Extra Slots Being Spells)
    +1 Swamp
    +1 Bayou
    +2-3 Mishra's Factory
    +1 Lonely Sandbar
    +2 Wasteland

    Cards that can be Added if More Room is Made:

    Thoughtseize
    If you were to play Spell Snare and Thoughtseize and you have both in your hand on the play. A turn one Thoughtseize would be incorrect because it would be better to keep mana open and then counter their two drop and then play the discard next turn. If that even because you might need mana open for Counterspell. Most of the time when you play it, it will be for the sole purpose of making sure your opponent doesn’t counter a Deed/Intuition or to take Removal for your creature. The best reason to play this card would probably be for against combo. If room was made by cutting lands or non-blue cards you would have to decide if you would be playing too much disruption and would a threat or removal be a better choice.

    Stifle
    Besides fetchlands cards that cause problems for you that Stifle is good against would probably be Eternal Witness and well Goblins. I would say combo but it’s usefulness seems to have diminished with the printing of Ad Nauseam. As for the fetchlands you can use it as a form of land destruction tempo in which case it would probably be best to run wastelands also. More importantly it would be used to protect your mana-base against opposing wastelands since that is one of this decks weaknesses. The reason why this was cut was because Spell Snare > Stifle.

    Smother, Diabolic Edict, Snuff Out or More EE's:
    Instead of having these in the sideboard there could be room made for the maindeck. I think this could improve a few match ups by giving this deck a better early game.

    Intuition Targets:

    Stinkweed Imp (Recurring removal.)
    Vedalken Shackles (Completely dominates late games.)
    Raven’s Crime (Very powerful effect.)
    Eternal Witness? (Not worth a slot?)
    Darkblast? (Too weak?)

    Cards that Cannot be in the Deck:

    Counterbalance/Top
    This is a personal choice of me and the decks creators. This deck will never play Counterbalance and please don't endlessly argue for it's inclusion. This is a deck for people who agree that it is better not to play Counterbalance. As for the reasons why it's not included... 1. It slows the deck down. 2. Anti-synergy with Pernicious Deed. 3. Bad in Multiples 4. Dead Card without Top 5. Bad Top-deck vs. Attacking creatures 6. Personal Choice. And I would have to say removing CB / Top and adding 2-3 Tombstalkers vastly speeds this deck up.

    Cunning Wish
    There is only so much room for cards that don't immediately have an effect on the game. The only way to make room for Cunning Wish would be to cut Intuition (since they play a similar role) which this deck cannot do. Also Cunning Wish murders your Sideboard and is really slow. In needing to make this deck less clunky, more straight forward and have a better early game, there is no place for this card in the deck.

    Fact or Fiction
    For allot of the same reasons to not to play Cunning Wish. We already have AK’s and Intuition. Our late-game is already better than our opponents thanks to the Loam Engine. In the long run a card like this that is only usually cast able when you winning and just ensures the win will not win you as many games as you will lose by having this be a dead card in your hand against a fast deck where you can’t afford to time walk yourself.

    Psychatog
    Out dated and slow. (See the Card Explanation for Tombstalker)

    Matchup Analysis:

    This is the type of deck that like Landstill can beat any deck in the format. Mostly this decks weakness is against really fast Aggro, Burn, and Land Destruction.

    Bad Match-Ups:
    Goblins

    Tough Match-Ups:
    Aggro-Loam
    Dragon Stompy
    Eva Green
    Goyf Sligh
    Burn

    Good Match-Ups:
    Just About Everything else.

    (More in depth Matchup Analysis in will be posted here in the future…)

    Additional Reading:

    Original Togless Tog Thread in French: http://www.legacy-france.com/Togless-t1731.html
    Translator: http://translate.google.com/ or http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

    Discuss!
    Last edited by darkalucard; 11-14-2008 at 04:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    (This Post May be used for future expansion of the Primer.)

  3. #3
    Plays green decks
    Jak's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2006
    Location

    Portland
    Posts

    2,184

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Why is this better than ITF? <---- Serious question

  4. #4
    Wasted Wizard
    Swing4Five's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Location

    Dedham, MA
    Posts

    93

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Pretty similar to the Intution Thresh list that's being disscussed a few threads down with a few engine differences, and I've never liked AK.

  5. #5
    You meet the nicest people on a Honda
    Obfuscate Freely's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2003
    Location

    Fredericksburg, Va
    Posts

    1,411

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    For the life of me, I cannot understand how somebody can think that Fact or Fiction is too slow, and simultaneously think that Intuition is any good at all.

    Also, just like the proponents of every other non-Landstill blue-based control deck, you need to address the absence of Standstill. You even have Factories in the deck, already, so swapping out the godawful Accumulated Knowledge for a card that will always draw three cards for the same mana cost seems obvious to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9
    I can show up whenever I vomit off my hangover and get rid of the passed out females who's naked bodies will be sprawled out all over my condo. Oh wait, I'm engaged. FUCK.

    Well in that case I can be there at like 2 then, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheBestEver View Post
    I built my car with my bare hands. It has 32 engines and 17 gas pedals so I can go extra-turbo fast. I sold it for a million dollars and then stole it from the guy using my super computer that can hack into any car in the world as long as I built it. Now I speed down the highway listening to Bruce Springsteen at max volume and flipping off other drivers.

    What are regrets?

  6. #6
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Togless Tog VS. ITF

    IMO ITF has the following Weaknesses:
    • Vulnerable win conditions.
    • Four Color Mana-Base.
    • Slow clock via only 4x Threats.
    • Slow via playing Counterbalance/Top


    Advantages to play this deck over ITF
    • Tombstalker is absolutely insane.
    • Recuring Wasteland and Raven's Crime crushes so many decks.
    • Faster clock and better win conditions.
    • More stable mana-base via playing only three colors.


    Ultimately why would you play it over ITF?

    For people who don't think counterbalance is that great and would rather play a faster control deck with better win conditions. Also if the two decks played against each other Togless Tog would win because it doesn't care about Counterbalance and it has the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock for control mirrors.

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.

    Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck, and three more in the sideboard. Sure, recurring EE is great, but it's still pretty limited. I'd at least add Shackles as a one-of.

  8. #8
    Wasted Wizard
    Swing4Five's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Location

    Dedham, MA
    Posts

    93

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydaeli View Post
    Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.
    Using Intuition for that pile gets you the card in what? 3 turns at best? On a 3cc spell?

    Only time that could possibly be relevant is during the control mirror, and there still would be a better pile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydaeli View Post
    Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck...
    This is actually on base. Cute little synergies and Intuition piles are just that, cute. Without larger interaction with the rest of the deck this is pretty useless.

    The deck seems to just be a mashup of ITF and Intuition Threshold; it seems slightly confused about it's gameplan as a result.

  9. #9
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Why is Intuition so good?
    • Can be 5 Mana draw 3-4 cards.
    • Can Tutor for 2U.
    • Late game Loam trumps any other form of card advantage.
    • Cost less than Fact or Fiction.


    Accumulated Knowledge VS. Fact or Fiction

    Fact or Fiction; as long as your opponent makes good piles you will usually only get 1-2 cards although they will probably be the best of the five. On average we will say that Fact or Fiction = Draw Three Cards

    Accumulated Knowledge; if you cast 2x AK's it's 1U+1U=Draw Three Cards. Intuition for 3x AK and Cast AK is 5 Mana = Draw Three Cards.
    The advantage over Fact or Fiction?
    • Easier to cast b/c it cost 2 mana.
    • Will not be a dead card in an early game where you cannot afford to play 4 mana all at once.


    And so I would not play Fact or Fiction because AK gives the same effect but at an easier cost. And there is not enough room for it in the deck.

    Why doesn't Togless Tog play Standstill?

    In order to support Standstill you must run at minimum 3x Wasteland and 3x Factory. Most lists of Togless Tog run only 1x Wasteland and 2x Factory. In order to add these 3x lands you must cut something and most likely it would be Intuition targets. Basically it comes down to Intuition vs. Standstill. In which case Intuition is allot more flexible card and it's card advantage is supior to Standstill. In match-ups against decks that run Standstill this deck doesn't care about them chaining Standstills as long as it resolves an Intuition. Because if it does Loam will rip that Standstill deck to pieces. I personal have played landstill allot and since play a deck like this have never lost to a standstill before and have never found Intuiton to be a dead card like Standstill can be.

  10. #10
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,195

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Can be 5 Mana draw 3-4 cards.
    Cost less than Fact or Fiction
    I'm a fan of Intuition, but, I mean.

    Incidentally, AK for one instantly trips the 'this guy has no clue' radar.
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  11. #11
    Wasted Wizard
    Swing4Five's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Location

    Dedham, MA
    Posts

    93

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    AK sucks and FoF is way too slow.

    Obfuscate Freely was not saying FoF was good and Intuition isn't, he was saying he doesn't understand how you could axe one while championing the other, as they both run about the speed of a midget in a marathon.

  12. #12
    Plays green decks
    Jak's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2006
    Location

    Portland
    Posts

    2,184

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    ITF plays a much more stable mana base than you, even with 4 colors. You run 4 more colorless lands, 2 lands that come into play tapped, and less basics. I'll take ITF's mana base.

    How do you call Counter/Top slow, and then say that Intuition-->AKs isn't? Or going for a Waste, Loam, Sandbar pile? Your whole decks just seems less streamlined.

    Also, Counterbalance is so amazing in ITF.

  13. #13
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    The deck seems to just be a mashup of ITF and Intuition Threshold; it seems slightly confused about it's gameplan as a result.
    Psychatog was around way before ITF and Intuition Threshold. I doubt any of the French players have ever seen Intuition Threshold and the decks are vastly different. All this deck is, is a viable form of actually playing a Psychatog deck. Obviouslly with the printing of Goyf and Stalker it was cut but all the core pieces are here. To say this is like ITF is rediculious. ITF was based on Psychatog... This deck is more like the updated father of ITF not a basterdized son...

    Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck, and three more in the sideboard. Sure, recurring EE is great, but it's still pretty limited. I'd at least add Shackles as a one-of.
    In my own version I run 3x EE and 1x Shackles. Even though I think EE is powerful enough to warrant running Ruins on it's own. It single handedly takes down almost every threat in the game including Counterbalance.

    Originally Posted by Nydaeli
    Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.
    Using Intuition for that pile gets you the card in what? 3 turns at best? On a 3cc spell?

    Originally Posted by Swing4Five
    Only time that could possibly be relevant is during the control mirror, and there still would be a better pile.
    You're correct. Eternal Witness is insanely slow and would only be affordable to do against control where there are better options. My favorite would be Loam/Wasteland/Ravens Crime.

  14. #14
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    I'm a fan of Intuition, but, I mean.

    Incidentally, AK for one instantly trips the 'this guy has no clue' radar.
    On turn two while holding mana open for a counterspell and my opponent does not play something that I want to counter than at the EOT I do nothing. AK takes advantage of the many times like these where you have a few mana left open. So what it draws 1 card the first time. 100% of the time it will be cast with mana that would other wise go unused.

    Obfuscate Freely was not saying FoF was good and Intuition isn't, he was saying he doesn't understand how you could axe one while championing the other, as they both run about the speed of a midget in a marathon.
    Even so one of my points is that cards like these that are so slow they should not take up too many slots in the deck. And so while I'm comfortable with 3x Slow cards I am not comfortable with 5x Slow Cards. And I would say Intuition > Fact or Fiction in this deck.

    How do you call Counter/Top slow, and then say that Intuition-->AKs isn't? Or going for a Waste, Loam, Sandbar pile? Your whole decks just seems less streamlined.

    Also, Counterbalance is so amazing in ITF.
    Counter/Top is always slow or at least tedious and has no immediate impact on the game. Obviouslly Intuitioning for slow piles is extremely slow but the beauty of it is that it is optional. Intuition can do anything and be anything you want.

    Also this is not ITF and this deck does not play Counterbalance and never will.

    And BTW this is not my deck. I am representing the French players that created and play this deck the best I can. While I play a simular list, I do not play this deck.

    ITF plays a much more stable mana base than you, even with 4 colors. You run 4 more colorless lands, 2 lands that come into play tapped, and less basics. I'll take ITF's mana base.
    Obvioussly you haven't read the primer.

    Here is another Togless Tog players ManaBase:

    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Bayou
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    2 Lonely Sandbar
    2 Mishra's Factory
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Swamp
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Wasteland

    That would be 16x Blue Lands not Counting Lonely Sandbar. And I would not count Lonely Sandbar as a land because 99.9% of the time it is cycled. It reads U: Draw 1 card. This mana-base runs the same amount of basics as ITF. And I would have to say it's pretty easy to cut ITF off of playing Pernicious Deed.

  15. #15
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,195

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    On turn two while holding mana open for a counterspell and my opponent does not play something that I want to counter than at the EOT I do nothing. AK takes advantage of the many times like these where you have a few mana left open. So what it draws 1 card the first time. 100% of the time it will be cast with mana that would other wise go unused.
    It's particularly hilarious when someone cycles AK for one into Intuition.

    The reason you are playing Counterspell on turn two is so that the board stays the same while you continue to make land drops. In that context, efficient use of your mana is not particularly relevant.

    I'm not sure why you went ahead and cut three lands and added an Intuition engine that costs about a million mana. The 23 land Tog builds never really needed to get past four because they had Drain and the Berserk kill. You probably need more.

    I'm unconvinced that Counterbalance-Loam control decks are good matchups for this, but I could see it going either way.
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  16. #16
    The Courage Wolf
    chokin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Tucson, AZ
    Posts

    267

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    I don't understand why you don't run CB+Top when you have a bad burn match. Top is good. CB is good. Together, they're awesome. You run enough 1cc-2cc spells to make sure that burn is going to have problems even off of blind CB reveals. CB+Top allows you to win many games you would not have been able to have won before and allows you to win just because it's that freakin good. And if you don't need it, it's great FoW fodder.

    I really don't like Intuition into 3AK...3UU for a total of 4 cards in the yard and a maximum of 4 cards drawn with no gain in hand size. 5 mana to basically cycle 6 cards is very meh.

  17. #17
    Arbitrary Wielder of Justice

    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Posts

    3,195

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    I really don't like Intuition into 3AK...3UU for a total of 4 cards in the yard and a maximum of 4 cards drawn with no gain in hand size.
    AK for three puts you up two.
    When in doubt, mumble.

    When in trouble, delegate.

  18. #18
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by chokin View Post
    I don't understand why you don't run CB+Top when you have a bad burn match. Top is good. CB is good. Together, they're awesome. You run enough 1cc-2cc spells to make sure that burn is going to have problems even off of blind CB reveals. CB+Top allows you to win many games you would not have been able to have won before and allows you to win just because it's that freakin good. And if you don't need it, it's great FoW fodder.
    The only bad match-ups CB/Top would help against is Burn and Goyf Sligh. Now Goyf Sligh can be beat as long as you know exactly how to play against it and don't make any mistakes. While Burn... who plays Burn? I a competitive tournament I don't think I will end up running into the deck. And it's not like I can't win. As long as I get an early beater or two and back it up with enough counterspells and Hydroblasts I can win.

    As for Counterbalance while it may help in a few match-ups in the long run against all the decks I think it would make the deck worse.

    BTW I asked some French players this:

    Why is "Togless Tog" > "It's the Fear" (ITF)?

    Less disynergies.

    Less colors (and no GG spells), therefore less colordeaths

    Counterbalance lock, oracle, witness and vedalken shackles are good for late game advantage. Late game advantage in togless is produced by card advantage with AK and Loam engine. Togless Materials for late game advantage are better in the early game.

    Early game in ITF is only managed by 4 stp + 6counterspells. In Togless it's 11 counterspells, which means more versatility because all threatens are not creatures.

    You play the biggest creatures in the format except the dreadnought. Therefore you don't need stp to handle most creatures. You handle creatures with deed, EE and tarmo/stalker by making card advantage (creatures functioning as the abyss against aggro). STP seems far less good being offcolor and not producing any card advantage

    Faster kills matter in competitive play
    Edit: I'll let Maveric post his own post lol.

  19. #19
    Legacy Inept

    Join Date

    Oct 2005
    Location

    France
    Posts

    1,956

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    The main weaknesses of ITF compared to Togless are the following ones:
    - the weaker mana base (4-color, you wan U/W turn 1, 1G/UU turn 2, 1GG/ 2U/1GB turn 3, WGBU turn 4, ...)
    - the lack of kills
    - the lack of heavy CA. About AK that is contested by a lot of people. It can be only a draw 3/4 for 3UU which is clearly weak but it can also be draw 7 for 4UUU, which is absolutely strong. And the EOT turn "cycling" of AK fits very well to the deck that loves to keep UU open during all the opponent's turn.
    - dyssynergy between the board sweepers and the permanents the deck plays: tarmo/counterbalance/shackles in ITF against Tarmogoyf in Togless.
    - the name of the deck looks like a teenager movie's name

    The burn MU is positive with togless, with 6 REBs in SB in addition to 4 CS, 4 FoW, 3 spell snare and 6/7 huge kills + some mishras. Real story: Pierrer Sommen lost a game against Zoo Sligh, by decking itself (his stronghold was needled, he sbed out all his board sweepers and he controled the game but his CA and a tarmogoyf in play that could not attack because he was at 1 life). The opponent did some mistakes for sure, but it's a proof that 17 counterspells + 6/7 kills + CA cards wins against red decks (with no vial nor chalice).

    Edit: ok, I did the copy/paste myself ^^

  20. #20
    Banned
    darkalucard's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2007
    Location

    I wish I didn't live in New Jersey.
    Posts

    80

    Re: [Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

    The burn MU is positive with togless, with 6 REBs in SB in addition to 4 CS, 4 FoW, 3 spell snare and 6/7 huge kills + some mishras.
    I never tested against pure burn and must have gotten the wrong impression from the French primer. Anyways I trust Maveric78f on this one.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)