So Ichorid with LED is a DTB and we are not. Any thoughts on this? I would think LEDless would be better against all the Merfolk.
I'm very curious which tournaments have been taken into consideration to come to that conclusion. All recent Dredge Decklists that made Top 8 appearances were LED less from what I know. I don't understand how the LED build can be DTB while the LEDless is Established. Then LEDless has to be DTW too. On Salvation there is only one Dredge thread for both variants and it is 'Proven' (so DTW) as well, while LED hasn't even been mentioned in the last 5 pages of that thread...Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
I'm pretty sure that the DTB thread applies to both LED and LED-less builds.
There really isnt a difference in how the deck is played anyway. I frequently switch between both versions and the only difference is speed and consistency; the gameplan of killing with zombies and big trolls remains the same. After boarding, the LED builds bring in Tribes and take out LED and DA so they essentially become the same deck. I'm not sure that having 2 separate threads for dredge is appropriate anymore. It might have been before, but dredge is dredge, and the opponents we play against are gonna treat us the same (i.e. throw fuckloads of grave hate at us).
Here's the list I played at my local game store's weekly Legacy tourney with around thirty people, along with a brief report:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
Sideboard:
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Chain of Vapor
I made day two of Columbus with McCall's old list, but that was before Mermen and Madness became the two most popular decks, so it was time for a change. I haven't tested that much with Firestorm, but it seems very good against Madness. Since the only targets in the main are Trolls, I decided to move one Dread Return to the board in place of one Careful Study to make the deck a bit faster and more consistent. I really like this change. The singleton Chain of Vapor is in concession to Leyline of the Void. I haven't tested four Ichorids in the main, seems juicy, but I wouldn't know what to cut.
Round 1 vs. 4c Countertop
G1- I keep a hand with a Troll. He plays a turn two Goyf while I slowly dredge away. I eventually get an Ichorid and two Bridges in the graveyard. I sac a Narcomoeba to Therapy his hand, and pass with two tokens, intending to chump his two 5/6 Goyfs. He draws and plays Firespout, I take the damage. Next turn, I swing with Ichorid and make two more Zombies. He tops and finds the second Firespout to seal the deal. I side in the three Grudges.
G2- I keep a hand with Coliseum, City of Brass, two dredgers, and an Ancient Grudge. He plays Crypt and EE for zero turn one. I discard a dredger and pass. After I dredge next turn, he Crypts during my draw step. I discard my second dredger and pass. I eventually Grudge his EE and mass a large quantity of Zombies for the win.
G3- I keep a slow hand. I discard a dredger on my first turn, while he responds with a Crypt and a Tarmogoyf on his turn. I Grudge his Crypt and pass. He plays a Clique on my next turn before I discard another dredger targeting himself, sending another Clique to the bottom. He bashes for 6 and says go. I don't dredge anything fruitful and die to his fast clock.
1-2
0-1
Round 2 vs. Artifact Stax
G1- I keep a great hand of two Breakthroughs, a dredger, an outlet, and two lands. I play a turn one Imp and pass, while he responds with a turn one Chalice at one. I discard my dredger, dredge back, then Breakthrough X=1 (keeping the other Breakthrough) for a few cards after only revealing one other dredger. It looks like I have this one in the bag, but then he plays Tormod's Crypt on his turn and removes my yard. My demeanor was calm on the outside, but inside I felt like this song. I was not expecting a maindeck Crypt. I am left with only a Narcomoeba and a Breakthrough. He plays Bottled Cloister and wins a few turns later. I side in the Dread Return package of Sphinx, Zealot, and Rasta Don, along with three Grudges.
G2- I live the dream. I cast a turn one Tribe, while he responds with a turn one Crucible of Worlds thanks to a Mox Diamond and Ancient Tomb. I discard a Troll and dredge it back, then cast Breakthrough for a bunch of cards. I flip up two Narcomoeba, 2 Bridges, a Dread Return, and a Zealot for lethal.
G3- He plays a turn one Trinisphere off of Diamond and City of Traitors, which greatly affects my plan. I draw and discard a dredger. He plays a Wasteland then passes. I dredge, but don't come up with anything relevant and pass. He tries to play Crypt next turn, but can't due to 3sphere. I know the end is near as I only have one land (I can't cast anything), so I must find something good with my next dredge. I don't. He plays another Wasteland and plays Crypt. I lose.
1-2
0-2
Round 3 vs. Burn
G1- I keep a very good hand with a Breakthrough, Tribe, land, and a dredger. By turn four, after Therapying his hand, I have eleven Zombies and a 19/19 Troll. I side in Grudges and Ancestor's Chosen.
G2- This one is a bit closer as my land is Tarnished Citadel, which helps along his clock. I tap it twice, once to play Tribe, then the second time to activate Coliseum. I dredge over half of my deck by turn four before finding Ancestor's Chosen for the victory.
2-0
1-2
Round 4 vs. Affinity
I keep a hand of Study, two Therapies, two lands, and a dredger. I play Tribe and pass. He plays Thopter, artifact land, Springleaf Drum. I dredge and cast my first Therapy, intending to cast both to get his hand. I get lucky and get two Ravagers with my first attempt, then take away his Myr Enforcer with my second Therapy, leaving him with a lone Frogmite in hand, along with a land. He casts Frogmite, then plays Cranial Plating and swings with Thopter. I dredge an Ichorid and pass. He attacks with a Frogmite and Thopter. I block the Frogmite with a pumped Tribe and take another hit from the equipped Ornithopter. I bring Ichorid back from the dead, dredge a Narcomoeba along with a Bridge, and swing for four, putting him at sixteen. I block his Thopter next turn with Moeba, getting another token. I forget the exact details of the rest of the game, but I built up tokens while blocking Ornithopter with dredged and Dread Returned Narcomoebas, then hit him for exactly lethal at one life the turn after he resolved Etched Champion (great card in Affinity btw, should see play in the maindeck). I side in Firestorm being on the draw, Grudges, and Ancestor's Chosen.
G2- His draw is more explosive than mine with a turn one Ravager. He resolves a Disciple and an Etched Champion, which is too much along with Cranial Plating. I side out the Firestorms for Careful Study being on the play.
G3- I mull to four on the play, keeping a hand of Breakthrough and Troll. He keeps a slow hand as well, casting a Pithing Needle turn one naming Putrid Imp. I wasn't winning this one anyways, but to add insult to injury, I draw Imp the next turn. He chains three Thoughcasts together, and by turn four has three Myr Enforcers out. I cannot overcome this and lose.
1-2
1-3
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Hi there.
I want to present my List which i want to play on the GP Bochum. Normaly i play with LED but at the last Tournament a lost all my teeth with them...
So i must change a bit things before i disgrace myself again.
Maindeck:
Lands:
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
Creatures:
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
2x Golgari Thug
1x Eternal Witness
Non- Creature Spells:
4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
2x Darkblast
Sideboard:
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature's Claim
1x Terastodon
1x Realm Razer
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
I don't prefer Undiscovered Paradise, but 3 Citadels i find too strange.
Darkblast against bad creatures like Lavamancer, Teeg etc. Upkeep: Blast on Teeg-> Dredge blast -> Mainphase Blast on Teeg -> Adios Teeg!
Maybe working like this xD
Eternal Witness to get Coliseum, Breakthrough... back.
Realm Razer against Lands.dec and Enchantress.
I hope you enjoy my list. Comments will be fine.
I think that Magus of the Moon is better than Realm Razer. If you remove their lands with Razer, they can sandbag a Tabernacle or a Chasm and drop it after. If you return Magus, none of that matters. I have also been playing FKZ main because of the speed of combo and the vengevine type decks, and so far has been pretty decent in testing. I am extremely happy with my sideboard as of now, which consists of:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Chain of vapor
3x Ray of Revelation
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Terastodon
1x Ancestor's Chosen
Leyline is nuts against almost all graveyard hate, and is almost never expected. 3 Rays are enough to take care of leyline, prison, propaganda, etc. 2 Ancient grudge are all that is needed, because the only real artifact we need to hate on is Relic. Chain goes in G2 for me most of the time, of I'm not sure what they are boarding in.
Questions and comments are appreciated.
-Chris-
Team Level 4 Wizard
neon_havoc
TheBirdMan
cwt1220
Counterspell7
I think Realm Razer is better, because he is useful against more decks (Enchantress, Survival) than Magus of the Moon and has the same inpact against lands. And i don't think that any lands player holds back a tabernacle until you have returned Realm Razer/Magus of the Moon.
How does Leyline work for you? In my testings it wasn't very impressive, because you have to ship even good hands back until you have a Leyline.
I had also the same Problem before Mystical Tutor has been banned. I played Leyline of the Void in my SB against Reanimator (was very popular in Germany). So i agree with No Trash Cougar.
Maybe I am fairly lucky, I do catch them fairly early, but if you know they only board Crypt or the trap, then you don't really hurt yourself to much shipping back hands to get leyline. Generally they mull 'til they get there hate, in which case we can be better off mulling to lower number.
-Chris-
Team Level 4 Wizard
neon_havoc
TheBirdMan
cwt1220
Counterspell7
Is anyone testing with all three engines? I think a 3/3/3 split between Vial/Mox/Drum is ideal for an unknown metagame.
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
This isn't Affinity.
You mean that you don't play Vial in your dredge deck? lol
-Chris-
Team Level 4 Wizard
neon_havoc
TheBirdMan
cwt1220
Counterspell7
Hey guys
Today i had tested with a friend the Merfolk matchup. It's very terrible... BUT!!!.... I tested Llawan, Cephalid Empress and i've to say, this Guy is really nice against the blue plague.
I don't think the mu is that terrible if you run Firestorm in the sb, but it can be very annoying if they vial in Cursecatcher, counter your spell and remove your bridges. Was Llawan better than Ancestor's Chosen in your testings?
He did his work. Cursecatcher is very terrible even you play with Chosen or Llawan. I think against Merfolk this Guy does better work. And i think (but not tested already) against NOGoyf he will be fine too. Bouncing a Progenitus is imo very very nice.
I don't see a point in running Llawan over Iona. Llawan has no utility outside of the Merfolk matchup while Iona hits each single deck in the format. It is true that Iona can't bounce, but the fact that she is a 7/7 flyer instead of a 2/3 vanilla will also help your board position against Folks, unless your opponent already controls like 5 or more Merfolks, in which case he would have killed you already. Also Iona prevents non-creature blue spells, which will help especially post board against Echoing Truth, countermagic and other stuff.
Also, Dredge doesn't really need one of those. Resolving an Ancestor's Chosen or a big Grave-Troll along with a few Zombies should usually suffice. If you still think you really need to lock them out of Merfolks, use Iona. Llawan is too narrow as a sb choice (our sb is already very tight and doesn't have space for cards, that only help against one specific deck) and isn't really better than Iona against Merfolk anyway.
I don't think I would bring in Realm Razer Vs Enchantress id rather bring in the Rays and chains with terastodon . The lands player could also hold back B-ring maze of ith a factory or they could have enough moxes in play to just not care. I agree with Izor on the subject of Llawan, Cephalid Empress.
L4W
RR imo is great option against this deck. Enchantress need's huge amount of mana to cast his spells. When Razer enters the battlefield he looses all his lands with Wild Growth's/Sprawl's, he don't have mana to pay CU cost for Elephant Grass.
I just don't think i would have space to bring him in . I would also be afraid that ground seal would make him a total blank.
L4W
Just the same like with Terastodon.
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