Don't get me wrong. I was just saying replacing Remand by Reversal might not be great.
However, replacing Snapcaster by Reversal might accelerate us while diminishing our grave dependancy.
That will be my next test.
-3 Snapcaster +3 reversal MD
-2 Snap +2 turnabout MD
I bet the idea is interesting.
Last edited by Ralf; 06-06-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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narset's reversal allows us to force the combo through EVERYTHING. it's almost like, turn 4-5, as long as i have one in hand, i can go off.
chalice on 1? sure, whatever. an uncounterable dovin's veto? yoink!
It gives us plays that we wouldn't have any business doing. especially against chalice.
Its even 'good' (read: cute) stealing an ad nauseum and going off in response.
I've not found remand to be good compared to unsubstantiate and reversal generally. the problem is that it has the word counter on it. So the few cards that says it can't be countered is remand proof. this can be a problem if they have some amount of stack interactions. otherwise, i tend to just try to leave their counters/response on the stack until i kill them. This is why i run unsubstantiate over remand.
Also, i can hear the naysayers griping about the 1 card that remand draws. Sure. It draws me a card. But to be honest, if i ever get down to the point where the card draw from remand is relevant, i'm probably at 40-60% winning already, and that 1 card is more a "good luck, mate" sort of play. Other times, when i'm in a good position, the 1 card is almost irrelevant/win-more.
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1061090
I did suggest "Unsubstantiate" over "Remand" a few months ago for all the reasons you stated.
Only tests will prevail (and yes I'm bouncing between them).
NB: Lately, I had a few games won on that f.cking Remand's draw, to be honest: the dreadly classical "meditate" into 2 land +1 opt +1 Remand while you are comboing. Remanding the "Opt" gave me the card I was looking for (mana was not a problem, only to max out my odds of not fizzling)...
Anyway, let's first see how it goes !
My reasoning to replace SCM is that it is usually a dead card until the combo turn.
I guess NR will also be spared for the combo turn BUT you do have a few other "incentives" to play it before and this is what I find appealing over SCM (snagging an opposite HTT, TS, Ponder or forcing your combo through...you name it)
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haha lucky bugger! I think more often than not, the remand draw isn't all that relevant for me. But as you say though, this deck kinda lives and dies by its quite thin margins, so maybe it is more relevant than i give it credit for.
One thing that might be relevant though; i try to brain freeze into flash of insight myself as early as i can, so maybe that's why the remand draw is rarely that relevant for me. You know, the trick of demonic tutor for your next draw card, then stacking some impulses with 3 land + whatever you need to continue combo-ing.
On SCM, i've found that it's best use (aside from combo-stuff) has been to flash-block a eidolon, or whatever x/2 guy your opponent has. It's sort of saved me that way at least once or twice. Not saying that it's ultra relevant, but it's not irrelevant either.
Also, speaking of mini-brain freezes, have you seen that card ever mind? it's got 3 mana splice onto instant, draw a card. Basically means it can function as a 3 mana draw 6-7 when you do a mini-brain freeze. I'm thinking i'm gonna test:
1 meditate
4 evermind
4 brain freeze
2-3 snap
1-2 turnabout
the rest as stock as possible. The plan is to get as much mana as possible, and brain freeze+evermind as the main draw engine instead of meditates. As far as i'm aware, you can splice the same card multiple times onto brain freeze, right? so i can, if i wanted to, with 10 mana, brain freeze x6, target opponent, and splice twice, drawing 12 cards, and continue combo.
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Oh I see, sounds good. To be honest, I play Turnabout and Flash of Insight over Snapcaster and Snap anyway. Maybe cutting Flash of Insight (as much as that would pain me- I love that card) to try Narset's Reversal is something I could try.
Everdream seems cool, but the situations in which it's good seem to narrow to justify an inclusion. As always, happy to be proven wrong, though.
As far as testing goes, I like it. I wasn't very confident about inevitability at first as I thought SCM was fairly better to keep going but I haven't failed yet after 20 games.
I'd even say I feel like the deck is more resilient as I don't have to rely on the clunky "snap my SCM" kind of play which always gave a window for my opponent to interact during the combo turn.
Did someone else bite the bullet and tried it ?
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So I tried Narset's Reversal at FNM tonight. Things I've targeted with NR tonight:
My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting Glistener Elf (preventing Glistener Elf from resolving).
My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting my opponent's Narset (preventing Narset from resolving).
My own High Tide when my opponent has a Chalice one one (allowing me to get a storm count of over ten).
My own flusterstorm that was being countered by my opponent's flusterstorm (original copy, leaving the storm copies on the stack) allowing me to recast flusterstorm and counter their flusterstorm copies.
More than once targeted my own High Tide that was being countered.
Sometimes NR felt a bit cute, but sometimes it really saved my bacon, and it was almost never a dead card. I'm going to keep playing it in my main deck and really liked it.
I also tried one Archmage's Charm in the 75, but never cast it. I don't think there's space in the main deck for it, but I'm also not sure it's s sideboard card. (Possibly could be justified in the same way that people used to put a meditate in the board for wishable card draw.) Not sure how I feel about it yet.
Any new developments from anyone else?
Hello!
I'm new to Solidarity, but it looks like its my dream come true. I'd like to pilot it for the next league I'm playing in, but I need a little help first.
1) What's a relatively stock list to start jamming games with?
2) What is the deck strong against and weak to?
3) Is there a community of Solidarity players besides here on the source?
By the way, Narset's Reversal is a busted card and seems perfect for this deck in several ways. Something that I think you missed is that it can generate tempo as well as raw card advantage vs counterspells via returning your spell (the one targeted by the counter) to your hand, fizzling their counter and buying back your spell. Its a cute interaction, but its pretty damn powerful. As mentioned above, it lets you play THROUGH chalice on 1, and it can function as an expensive second copy of any important spell (ie. high tide). On the other hand, Archmage's Charm seems like it just misses the cut in this deck. 3 CMC is an awkward spot for something not as powerful as meditate or cunning wish.
i think there's builds in this thread, but prob not too many since there were some new possible additions as you mentioned.
because the deck will never be tier 1, you can probably just play the build that you enjoy the most. think about the cards you like playing in this kind of deck.
for me i really like the interaction between snap and snapcaster mage. it also gives you some maindeck answers to cards like thalia, leovold, and just keeping creatures off the board.
mission briefing, narset's reversal, archmage's charm, and to a lesser extent growth spiral are all pretty recent. you just gotta find what you like doing most with the deck. because the deck is slower than a deck like ANT/Tes/Ruby and arguably slower than show and tell decks too, you might want to find way to play a more interactive game and not go so much for pure speed. play on the strength of having a mono blue deck.
just some thoughts. could be wrong.
-rob
1) You can start using the following list:
11 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Narset's Reversal
2 Mission Briefing
2 Turnabout
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Engulf the Shore
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
You should have all the "necessary" cards to start tweakening to your "liking" afterward.
2) You should win most of your G1 (like many combo decks). G2 & G3 are usually where the battle starts.
Tough MUs are usually Tempo decks and faster combo decks (usually graveyard based decks such as Dredge and Reanimator).
The worst enemy is usually "yourself". Solidarity is usually one of (if not the) the best challenging deck for your own sake.
Decision tree is often a nightmare and among many paths you could take, there are only a few (not to say only one sometimes) that can lead you to victory.
Fizzling is "real" compared to other combo decks but the above list should give you good odds if you reach at least 4 islands in play (the lesser the more chances you have to fizzle, the more islands you have the less chance to fizzle).
Rule n°1: make land drops
Rule n°2: make land drops
Rule n°3: make land drops
...
As a matter of fact when you first play the deck, I usually advise to combo ONLY WHEN you are facing lethal.
This simple rule will, at least, force you to wait until the very last moment to "combo" and should reduce your fizzling odds by a fair margin.
Afterwards, get familiar with your deck. Learn how to count & kill "small" (i.e: Storm 7 -> Brain Freeze -> remand/narset/Briefing -> BF again).
3) I don't know of any community outside the Source for Solidarity players.
By the way,
Welcome !!!
And above all, have fun.
Should you have any questions, feel free to post in here.
Ralf
Last edited by Jander78; 07-09-2019 at 07:57 PM. Reason: added tags
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Completely agreed with all the above points, except to also add, it’s not strong not because it’s a bad deck, but mostly because it’s a nightmare to pilot. It most definitely is the toughest deck to pilot competently, let alone well.
After every game loss, I can always point to pilot failure. Heck even with wins, I could always improve sequencing.
If I were you, I’d train like this:
Level 1 - try to sculpt and combo off turn 4 consistently.
2 - same as level 1, but against minor pressure
3 - same as level 2, but against another blue-heavy counterspell deck
4 - same as 3, but don’t use counterspell a against it (in other words, learn to abuse the stack).
Level 4 is the sort of level that allows you to actually beat reasonable players playing blue. My best I’ve ever done was comboing through counterbalance on 2, 1 blast, 1 force and 1 counterspell against a miracles opponent game 2 or 3, in response to a jace brainstorm activation. And I think I only was forced to counter one of those.
Solidarity is great cuz you can leverage the stack to your advantage to a level that no one else can do, and that’s what makes/breaks your game.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Wow! I honestly wasn’t really expecting a response like this! Thank you all so much!
I’m aware of the difficulty of the deck, which is partly why I’m drawn to it. I’ve always been a Storm player, but it gets old when you already know what to do most times due to the nature of Storm. Solidarity being at instant speed makes things so interesting, as you can combo off in response to anything, assuming you have the ability to start your combo.
I’d really like to try and take this deck to the next level, and start a dedicated group of people trying to tune and perfect it. Is there a discord for Solidarity? If not, I’d like to start one. Furthermore, are any of you keeping track of your matches? I’ve got a handy doc to help show what matches we are favored in, what is our average turn rate, and how you stack up against your local metagame.
Besides the basics on how to pilot the deck, are there any tips or tricks I should know? Obviously, there isn’t a substitute for actually playing it, but if there are some common lines I’d like to learn them.
EDIT 1: Also, what does our matchups look like? I’ve gleamed that discard is rough, and that counterspells can be played around, but besides that I’m in the dark.
EDIT 2: Also, what are common SB cards we have to deal with? Obviously there are anti-storm cards, but is there anything specific to solidarity?
EDIT 3: Also, I want to play Narset's Reversal, but I love the synergy between Snap and Snapcaster Mage. However, the seemingly natural cut, Remand, is better than Reversal in some cases (like vs Prison decks, decks that play must-answer threats, etc.). Can we afford to play Reversal? Being able to combo through Challice on 1 would be really nice...
Last edited by Excile2127; 07-09-2019 at 10:43 PM.
1) Solidarity is usually not expected. High Tide decks are not quite common. Discard isn't THAT rough (Meditate is a hell of a card). Solidarity won't lose to a single attack angle if it is what you ask; like other combo decks, your opponent will need more to beat you (discard+counterspell+fast clock for example).
There is also something peculiar with Solidarity. It is a 3 pieces combo deck @ 4 islands in play; it is a 2 pieces combo deck @ 6+ island in play and it could even be a 1 piece combo deck @ 8+ island in play. The more the game drags on the better your odds are to win the game.
2) Blue deck is blue decks. Expect anti-"Blue" spells, anti-storm cards and anti-combo cards. Usually always board out 1 High Tide, 1 Meditate and 1 Reset against black decks to avoid extraction spells.
3) Read the thread from a few pages back and look @ the provided list. Remand + Reversal is, IMHO, the way to go (and I have explained my reasoning behind that choice). Both SCM and Reversal are strong but I think they compete for the same slot:
a- SCM is stronger in a vaccum, Reversal is faster.
b- SCM cannot be played for CMC 2 (save emergency)
c- Reversal cannot block
d- Reversal can let you play through chalice on 1
e- Reversal is better vs discard
f- SCM makes you grave dependant and then opens you up to more anti-sideboard cards
g- SCM is not impacted by Thalia's effect
h- SCM grows opposite tarmogoyf
i- SCM has a good synergy with Snap but that gives your opponent a window to interact/ blow you out.
Etc...
That list is far from being comprehensive but until I'm proven otherwise, I think Reversal > SCM at the moment.
4) As far as I know there is no discord channel for Solidarity.
Happy testing,
Ralf
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There’s a high tide channel with a solidarity sub channel though. No idea how to invite.
In general, a fast clock combined with disruption is what gets solidarity. Strangely enough, even though it’s probably correct to board out a high tide games 2-3 against surgical/gy hate, I try to keep my maindexk as smooth as possible, and go off/react in response, if they have it (mission briefing/SCM even if it’s not going to combo there and then).
I find that if my opponent thinks I’m gonna side in say 6-8 cards against them, they’re more willing to slow their clock considerably to meet me. So I just keep my speed up, and try to outrace them. Not foolproof, but more effective than otherwise (for my style of play).
By the way, how many turnabouts do you guys run these days?
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https://discord.gg/9DDprc
Se if that works.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Awesome! The linked worked!
Thank you guys for your help, the provided list has been working great.
I've got another question, however. Why don't we run a High Tide in the SB, and go up another wish? There have been several games I've either goldfished or played so far that I have a hard time finding a high tide, and that would let us essentially go up to 7 in board, as opposed to 4. Also, by going on the 2 Turnabout/3 Reversal plan, we free a slot up in the SB for High Tide as we probably don't want Snap anymore. Thoughts?
EDIT: I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, but so far I'm seeing Brain Freeze//Flash of Insight, Snap//Snappy, and Turnabout//Reversal as viable options for the flex slots. What are your thoughts on FoI? And would you mind explaining some of the SB cards (when to bring what in, what to leave in the SB, etc.).
There is a big difference between "losing because you didn't see a HT" and "winning with having difficulty to see a HT"
I played 4 CW for a long time and this is definitely a consideration.
Now CMC 3 is a lot more than CMC 1 and I hate opening hands that contains 2+ CW.
Not finding HT will happen. Do as your guts are telling you.
SB is flexible so to speak.
But you need at least a few cards to deal with pesky permanents:
- mass anti artifact to get you out of prison strategies
- mass anti creature to get you out of Thalia + MoM + Prelate/Canonist (for example)
- Bunch of free spells to be king of the stack
- 2 BF (1 Coming in, the second one to be tutored)
- 1 BSZ to deck your opponent when it matters (deck with Emrakul effect or when you need to win on the spot)
- X anti grave strategies.
Anti grave sideboard cards are too narrow to my taste and hinder your other MUs by a fair margin when you invest too many slots to it. I prefer hedging something else and I'm ready to give up the dredge MU.
Others grave decks usually can be beaten on the stack so to speak.
For sideboard tables, when you don't know what to do, follow the first advice (1 HT 1 Reset 1 Meditate out, +1 BF and +2 other "spot" cards). Almost always leave mass effect in the sideboard for tutoring purposes.
Then you'll need to test and test again in order to determine what other cards can be switched in/out.
For example, against tempo decks, trimming a few or most of your Remand was a popular choice in the past.
Cutting higher CMC cards for lower ones might also be a path to take
Against fair decks, you can question the need of 4 FOW in your deck...
Against Control deck you may trim a fetch or an island to increase your number of business cards...
Etc.
Anyway my words are "no gold". Play hundreds of games and come up with your own conclusion.
Just remember if you don't know how to board in G2. Just stay as you are. A well oiled machine will always be better than a kinky board and you will always be able to board better in G3 after seeing opposite countermeasures.
My two cents.
Ralf
PS: avoid tweakening the list before at least a hundred games. Losing 5 times in a row against a certain deck doesn't mean the list is bad again this archetype. You may end up winning the next 10 games.
This deck requires experience above all.
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Don't worry about asking questions! It's what we're al here for.
I really love Flash of Insight, but I've cut it to play Narset's Reversal (I used to play 2 Brain Freeze and 2 Flash of Insight main deck, but have gone down to 1 BF and three NR.) It usually acts as a panic button when you need to find a particular card and allows you to search really deep into your deck. The option to Brain Freeze yourself, milling until you find FoI, then flash backing it to search your deck with the remaining BF copies still on the stack can really get you out of a pickle.
Another possibility is that if you get X high enough, you can stack your deck to the order of your choice.
All that being said, no regrets on cutting it for Narset's Reversal!
Also, thanks for the tips of sideboarding, Ralf. Definitely agree on cutting remand against tempo and Force against fair decks as general rules.
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