[Deck] Solidarity

[fuga]

Thank you guys :)

[astormbrewing]

I'll leave this here.

//Instants
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
1 Opt
3 Peek
4 Reset
3 Snap
1 Spell Snare
2 Turnabout
1 Twincast

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Land
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Curfew
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Spell Snare
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Twincast
2 Wipe Away

The only change I'm thinking about right now is:
Maindeck -1 Spell Snare +1 Flusterstorm
Sideboard -1 Curfew +1 Spell Snare

[Seraphus]

My dears mark my words: solidarity is moving forward by losing fow... or playing with a minimal amount of it...

[astormbrewing]

My dears mark my words: solidarity is moving forward by losing fow... or playing with a minimal amount of it...

I still don't like playing less than 3 in game 1. When I used to play Spiral Tide, there were times when I'd board out Force of Wills for other counter spells (such as Flusterstorm or Pact of Negation), but it hits so many problem cards that Flusterstorm doesn't hit that I definitely want it G1, then bring in (more) specialized counter spells after sideboarding (such as Flusterstorm).

[Seraphus]

I still don't like playing less than 3 in game 1. When I used to play Spiral Tide, there were times when I'd board out Force of Wills for other counter spells (such as Flusterstorm or Pact of Negation), but it hits so many problem cards that Flusterstorm doesn't hit that I definitely want it G1, then bring in (more) specialized counter spells after sideboarding (such as Flusterstorm).

Look at the list you posted ok? Now, tell me which deck has any threat to you that you can not solve on game 1 (Iona reanimator doesnt count)...

[astormbrewing]

Look at the list you posted ok? Now, tell me which deck has any threat to you that you can not solve on game 1 (Iona reanimator doesnt count)...

I know I technically have an answer for any threat with Cunning Wish, but for something like Chalice of the Void I'd rather be proactive (Force of Will) rather than reactive (Cunning Wish -> Echoing Truth/Rebuild). Similarly, I'd rather counter a Thalia or Teeg or Canonist than bounce it if I can. Those cards slow down our ability to sculpt our hands significantly.

[ScatmanX]

Similarly, I'd rather counter ... Teeg ,,.

Why would you counter Tegg, if it just juts down 6 cards of your deck, 3 f wich are FoWs?
Other than that, I might be with Seraphus here. Just would want more counters on Combo MUs I guess...

[Seraphus]

I know I technically have an answer for any threat with Cunning Wish, but for something like Chalice of the Void I'd rather be proactive (Force of Will) rather than reactive (Cunning Wish -> Echoing Truth/Rebuild). Similarly, I'd rather counter a Thalia or Teeg or Canonist than bounce it if I can. Those cards slow down our ability to sculpt our hands significantly.

Do they? thalia effect can be easily ignored its just 1 mana, cannonist: tell me when you are playing how many times do you eot play more than 1 card? As chalice, you inspired me to find the answer: twincast on high tide ...
Hello scat long time! Yes but I also have 3 md fluster

[redsai]

More and more I'm leaning towards a singleton Echoing Truth in my list. It cracks the game wide open if you boomerang two Snapcasters. It targets many problem permanents, and can buy a turn or more against 4-of-beatdown.dec

Do they? thalia effect can be easily ignored its just 1 mana, cannonist: tell me when you are playing how many times do you eot play more than 1 card? As chalice, you inspired me to find the answer: twincast on high tide ...

I don't see anything that can replace Force of Will's great flexibility in Game 1. The 1cmc counters can be blank in many situations, and aren't active until our turn 1.

I really don't know what dream world you live in. We're a combo deck that needs four main phases, anything that slows us down to five or six is pretty scary, see case by case below:

T1/T2 Trinisphere - Hope they don't drop more hate while you can't interact! Hope that you already had your lands/answer cards, because you can't sculpt much!

Thalia - One more tapped lands before a HT resolves. Means you need one more land before the fundamental turn. (Oh, and when she's poking for two, we *can't* remove her with Snapcaster.)

Canonist - If you really need two spells, cast one on your turn. But your deck needs to run 3+ bounce spells if you're going to ignore her. (Also, she swings for two.)

Chalice on One - Twincast? Two more tapped lands before a HT resolves. Also, the chances for multiple HT is dramatically lowered. Bounce? You can't repeal a chalice on one. Are you going to commit on opponent's EOT with a bounce spell? If you can't, you're short at least two more lands before the first HT resolves.

Teeg - I haven't played enough against it to know how I feel. I'm mildly concerned about losing BSZ targeting myself for "draw lots..." If I'm the Repeal version of Solidarity, I'm much more uncomfortable.

[SirTylerGalt]

More and more I'm leaning towards a singleton Echoing Truth in my list. It cracks the game wide open if you boomerang two Snapcasters. It targets many problem permanents, and can buy a turn or more against 4-of-beatdown.dec

The Echoing Truth in the SB is awesome when you have 4 Snapcaster Mage in play mid-combo. It's a 7-for-1, since you can re-use one Snapcaster Mage to flash it back.

Thalia - One more tapped lands before a HT resolves. Means you need one more land before the fundamental turn. (Oh, and when she's poking for two, we remove her with Snapcaster.)

You sadly can't kill Thalia with Snapcaster, she has Initiative :(

I might bring Solidarity to a local tournament tomorrow night, I will look tonight to see if I'm missing any card :)

[redsai]

You sadly can't kill Thalia with Snapcaster, she has Initiative :(

Whoops, I forgot the "can't" when I was editing my post. fixed that ;-)

[astormbrewing]

Teeg definitely isn't a huge issue, since you can Snap it when you're ready to use spells like Turnabout or Blue Sun's Zenith.

Twincast on High Tide as an answer to Chalice of the Void? No.

I think I'm likely going to agree to disagree on maindeck Force of Will. I definitely want 3, but I'm happy to board them out in favor of more specialized counter spells in games 2 and 3.

I originally considered Echoing Truth in the main, as a 1-of. It has great synergy with Snapcaster Mage (as long as you have sufficient mana to recast them, which you likely will), and can remove multiple threats should they arise (such as 2 Goyfs). I just had trouble figuring out where to put it, and decided that if I was really in a jam, I could just Wish for it.

[diego1985]

Hi!
Im trying this list but im not conviced of the sb. What you think about this list?

// Deck: Solidarity (60)

// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

// Instants
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Turnabout

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tolarian Winds
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Wipe Away

[benthetenor]

I think the easiest way to get all of the benefit and very little of the detriment out of Force of Will is to just do this: if you have to counter something, counter it. If not, don't.

The absolute largest mistake I see beginners make with this deck is using their Force of Wills to make the game easier, rather than using them to make the game winnable. The deck (if you're still playing with Cunning Wish and a diverse wish board) actually has a lot of ways to deal with pretty much any issue that could possibly come up within a game, be it a key counterspell on a card that you need to resolve or a whole board full of Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere and whatever else those terrible MUD decks play. Thoughtseize is an inconvenience, but a single Meditate negates a whole bunch of Thoughtseizes, and Snapcaster Mage makes discard much, much less effective. Trinisphere in and of itself is actually ridiculously simple to just play through, as once you get 5-6 lands in play, your high tides will generate an obscene amount of mana, and if you absolutely have to, you can tap it down with Turnabout. Thalia is the same way; one High Tide completely negates that card. The only cards I will Force of Will on the spot are: Chalice of the Void on 1 (as it destroys my ability to cantrip and dig for answers), Counterbalance (for the same reason), Ethersworn Canonist/Arcane Laboratory/dedicated anti-storm cards like that, and sometimes Meddling Mage since that card is both an answer to High Tide and a clock. Or of course, any card that just kills us, like a Goblin Charbelcher or an Infernal Tutor with no hand and 5-6 spells. But again, all of those (non-combo) cards have answers in the form of Cunning Wish, so if it's going to cost me too much to FOW it, or if I don't have the FOW at the time, I'll just wait and get it later. But the point is that all of those cards are diverse enough that I need a flexible answer and are devastating enough that I don't mind spending two cards and a point of life to answer them. Force of Will is terrible against tempo decks or fair decks that don't have bombs that you need to stop, but that's exactly why you have cards like Twincast and Flusterstorm and Snap, so that you don't have to be playing Force of Will in sideboarded games if you don't want to.

I guess my main point is, all of those cards that I said you'd want to Force of Will are so bad for us that having a (really expensive) answer to them outweighs having 4 dead cards in the other easier matchups, at least for me. Those are the reasons why Force of Will has always been run in the deck and why it's probably still just correct to keep running it, even if you can get some percentage points in some matchups by running some number of Flusterstorms instead. Flusterstorm doesn't answer any of the hate cards that I mentioned, and those are really the only ones that really really (really) need to be countered. I do find the idea of a 5th Force of Will in the form of a Flusterstorm intriguing simply because 5 seems like a great number, but I'm unsure that there would be a whole lot of situations where it wouldn't just be more flexible as another combo piece like a Snap or a cantrip.

[Feather]

@diego:
Hey, what do you think about removing one Brainfreeze from the main deck and 1 Pact of Negation, 1 Tolarian Winds and 1 Chain of Vapor from your sideboard?

I'll try to explain:
Multiple Brain Freezes are best when you are fighting Control decks (as you can then win 'dirty' with lots of small Brain Freezes after counterwars). But with multiple Remands + Snapcaster Mage + Cunning Wish + Flusterstorm, I think you'll have the upper hand in counterwars anyway. Another reason to run multiple Brain Freezes is a main deck Flash of Insight, which you don't use.
So I think you can savely cut one (or move one to the sideboard, although I think adding another Flusterstorm helps more there).
Do you think you'll have problems finding a Brain Freeze with only one main deck and 3 Cunning Wishes? For me 1 has been enough (plus I hate drawing one early :P)

I don't think you need three bounce spells at different mana costs. 2 should be enough - for these two spots I prefer Echoing Truth (as it's versatile and helps against tokens and because CMC 1 will likely be blocked by Chalice). The other slot I like is Wipe Away, because if you can cast Cunning Wish, you will likely be able to cast Wipe Away, too. It also helps against Counterbalance. But those are my choices. If you need cheaper solutions stay with Chain of Vapor. But maybe here you can free one slot by cutting one of the three.

I don't really like Tolarian Winds, because most of the time a Wish for Meditate or BSZ will do the same/a better job. I think it's an other slot that can be freed up because it's role overlaps with other slots you already have.

Same is the case for Pact of Negation. I think, midcombo wishing for Force of Will has no relevant drawback against Pact of Negation and Flusterstorm can be even better sometimes. I think in that slot I'd add another Flusterstorm, because it can be used defensively, too against discard, can win counterwars and is the more flexible card.

So, for the three freed up slots I'd consider either more Flusterstorms, Piracy Charm, 4th Surgical Extraction or Snaps. What do you think?
If you don't like my changes please add why you prefer your slots as that'll help me, too :)

[benthetenor]

@Ben
History is valuable. But telling someone to spend 20-40 hours (10-25 minutes per game for 100 games) on a gimped deck with bad rules is overkill (and probably a mistake.) This deck really needs an opponent to push you into other lines of play. Will your students play with 10E rules against current lists? Should they be testing against the lists that were prevalent in the old days?

I don't know how to bridge the gap to you about this 600 games to "competency" comment. After ~20 matches over here, I see more room to learn... but I don't see enough unexplored areas of play left to justify ~200 more matches to be "competent."

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. If you don't want to put in the work to actually learn how the deck works, that's fine. I didn't realize that the rules were "bad" before an exile zone was a thing. It's a good thing they fixed that for us. Nor did I realize that the deck as it came before was "gimped", given that at that point in history (circa 2006), Solidarity had had as much success as it has ever had. Pretty much by the strictest definition, our versions are almost certainly worse. I really couldn't care less about what you do, but if you're going to try and jam Blue Sun's Zenith into the maindeck at the expense of Brain Freeze, then it's clear you don't know how to a) win small or b) use Brain Freeze to prevent fizzling. Any monkey can cast a Blue Sun's Zenith for 30 and win from that position, but it takes a lot of things going right for that plan to work, which makes it a bad plan. If you take the list I posted and run through 100 test games (minimum), you will learn each of those things. You can't not learn them. Or, I guess, don't. There's no shortcut to getting good with this deck. You can either learn how to use the cards, or not. It's up to you.

I think it is precisely because you don't see unexplored areas of play to learn that you won't get better without a little help. I'm telling you the things that you need to learn to get good at this deck. You can either listen to me or you can keep assuming that ~20 matches is enough.

[notap123]

On a lighter note I think I am going to start hitting up some midwest tournaments starting with SCG cincinnati at the end of the month. What other big events make their way around the US that I can look into?

[diego1985]

@diego:
Hey, what do you think about removing one Brainfreeze from the main deck and 1 Pact of Negation, 1 Tolarian Winds and 1 Chain of Vapor from your sideboard?

I'll try to explain:
Multiple Brain Freezes are best when you are fighting Control decks (as you can then win 'dirty' with lots of small Brain Freezes after counterwars). But with multiple Remands + Snapcaster Mage + Cunning Wish + Flusterstorm, I think you'll have the upper hand in counterwars anyway. Another reason to run multiple Brain Freezes is a main deck Flash of Insight, which you don't use.
So I think you can savely cut one (or move one to the sideboard, although I think adding another Flusterstorm helps more there).
Do you think you'll have problems finding a Brain Freeze with only one main deck and 3 Cunning Wishes? For me 1 has been enough (plus I hate drawing one early :P)

I don't think you need three bounce spells at different mana costs. 2 should be enough - for these two spots I prefer Echoing Truth (as it's versatile and helps against tokens and because CMC 1 will likely be blocked by Chalice). The other slot I like is Wipe Away, because if you can cast Cunning Wish, you will likely be able to cast Wipe Away, too. It also helps against Counterbalance. But those are my choices. If you need cheaper solutions stay with Chain of Vapor. But maybe here you can free one slot by cutting one of the three.

I don't really like Tolarian Winds, because most of the time a Wish for Meditate or BSZ will do the same/a better job. I think it's an other slot that can be freed up because it's role overlaps with other slots you already have.

Same is the case for Pact of Negation. I think, midcombo wishing for Force of Will has no relevant drawback against Pact of Negation and Flusterstorm can be even better sometimes. I think in that slot I'd add another Flusterstorm, because it can be used defensively, too against discard, can win counterwars and is the more flexible card.

So, for the three freed up slots I'd consider either more Flusterstorms, Piracy Charm, 4th Surgical Extraction or Snaps. What do you think?
If you don't like my changes please add why you prefer your slots as that'll help me, too :)

About a md i consider x1 a randomic solution... Im not a brave player :-)

I agree with you for a sb but i dont like piracy charm and i prefere 2xsnap for a combo with a mage.

[SirTylerGalt]

I played Solidarity for the first time IRL at a local tournament yesterday. I went 2-2, and finished 9th out of 23-24 people.

12 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

4 High Tide
4 Reset

2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Peek
2 Visions of Beyond

4 Force of Will
2 Remand
2 Snap

4 Snapcaster Mage


1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freez
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Twincast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap

I wanted to play 3 Peek / 1 VoB, but didn't have the 3rd Peek or even an Opt...

Match 1: U/G Enchantress 2-0
He was playing a weird version of the deck, which he calls the "storm" version. It drops GSZ / Words of Wind for 4 Abundant Growth, 1 Cloudstone Curio, 1 Wall of Flower, 1 Emrakul, and 1 Tendril... Supposedly, this version is faster (T2 kill), and can combo without an Enchantress effect in play, which is why GSZ is not needed.
Either way, I think it is a great matchup for Solidarity.

G1: he durdles, and I start the combo in response to an Enchantress draw effect. I Brain Freeze, and realize he plays Emrakul... I'm lucky, because I still have some business in hand, so I respond to the trigger by continuing the combo, remanding Brain Freeze, replaying it, then wishing for Stroke of Genius to make him draw.

G2: he is land flooded and I kill him like in G1

Match 2: U/G Enchantress 2-1
Exact same deck, they are friends. I had lucky pairings hehe :)

G1: he kills me T2 :( Didn't have the FoW to stop his combo

G2: He mulligans to 5 cards and plays T0 Leyline of Sanctity. It's ok, I combo him easily and bounce it with a Chain of Vapor before killing him.

G3: we have 7 minute left. I setup in the first few turns. An earlier Peek has shown 2 Flusterstorms and 2 Leyline of Sanctity. He has 2-3 lands, including a Tropical Island and a Forest enchanted with Abundant Growth, which means he has UU available for his flusterstorms. He uses a Cloud of Faeries to generate 2WW and play a Leyline of Sanctity. I have only 2 Islands in play at this point and don't have enough business spells to go off yet.
He has a lot of hate, but no Enchantress Effects, so we spend a few turns, me searching for a third Island and High Tide, him playing Enchantress Presence.
At this point, I have 3 untapped Islands, and he tries to play the second Leyline of Sanctity (to draw?), tapping one of his blue-producing lands... (misplay IMO) I decide to go off in response, since he can only play 1 flusterstorm, and I have 2 High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap, Snap, Meditate.
Tap first island and cast High Tide #1 --> resolves
Tap second island, cast High Tide #2, floating U --> he flusterstorms
In response, I tap my third island, and play a Snap on his Cloud of Faeries, untapping two lands.
I tap one of those lands, and have UUU in pool.
I play Snapcaster Mage, then flashback High Tide.
I tap my last land for UUU. Snap my Snapcaster Mage, Snapcaster Mage my Snap, Snap my Snapcaster Mage, Snapcaster Mage my other Snap, Snap my Snapcaster Mage, play Meditate, generate 26 mana, Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius, Stroke myself for 15 (floating 5), play High Tide, Reset, Snapcaster, Reset, Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth, bounce my 3 Snapcasters, replay them, generating even more mana, flashback Echoing Truth, replay my 3 Snapcasters again... I try to go for Brain Freeze and to my horror, I realize I forgot about his Leylines... I look at my exile zone: only played 2 Cunning Wish! I Impulse, find my last Cunning Wish, get Chain of Vapor, cast it on a Snapcaster, sacrifice a land to bounce Leyline #1, replay Snapcaster, flashback Chain of Vapor, cast it on Snapcaster, sacrifice another land to bounce Leyline #2, Brain Freeze, Remand Brain Freeze in response to Emrakul trigger, Brain Freeze again, Flashback Stroke of Genius for X = 1..

My additional turn ended up taking 15 additional minutes, since he didn't want to concede until I really had the kill...


Match 3: Maverick 0-2
G1: He plays Thalia with Cavern of Souls, which slows me down too much. I durdle with Snapcaster Mage + Snap to slow him down / bounce his Thalia / block his Knight... But I'm unable to find High Tide in time...
G2: He plays a few dudes, I try to setup... On T5, I have 4 Islands and 1 Fetch in play. He has a Sylvan Safekeeper and a Scryb Ranger, and casts Thalia... I Remand. Instead of replaying it, he plays Canonist... I fetch to play Cunning Wish in response, hoping to get a bounce spell (no FoW in my side...). My fetchlands was close to my GY, and he starts arguing that I used it on T1 and it should not be in play... I know I didn't want to crack it until I found a Brainstorm, so we start counting life scores and drawn cards to see if I have indeed cheated... I didn't... But this broke my concentration. I go to resolve my Cunning Wish, look at his board, and think "OMG, I can't bounce Canonist with Sylvan Safekeeper in play! I don't play Wipe Away in my SB...". I was too angry, and totally forgot that I can use Rebuild in this situation... So I concede on the spot, thinking I'm locked out of the game.

Match 4: UWR Delver 0-2

G1:
I knew what he played because he sat next to me the previous round. I win the die roll.

Me: Island, go
Him: Tundra, Delver

@benthetenor: would you FoW here, or would you let his clock resolve?
I chose to FoW, to buy myself some time to find the High Tide, and slow him down. I had 1 mana open so he couldn't blow me out with Daze anyway. I guess 1-2 Repeal MD would have helped in this case.

Sadly, I didn't find enough lands and High Tide in time, and he kills me with Geist.

G2:
I peek EOT and see REB, Flusterstorm, Fow, Ponder, Stifle.
Next turn, I play a fetch. I have 3 Island and 1 Fetch in play, with High Tide, Remand, Snapcaster Mage, Twincast, FoW, Reset, Reset.
At the end of his next turn, I try to fake a combo, to remove some of his counters... I play High Tide, hoping he counters, so I can Remand it... He lets it resolve. He then plays Surgical Extraction on my High Tide (not sure he had priority but that's ok). I am now forced to combo, since I'm at 7 life, he has a Delver, and I will have a hard time comboing without High Tide in the next 2 turns... My only hope is to generate mana, then flashback the Impulse in my GY with Snapcaster to try to find more Business...
I respond by cracking my fetch. He stifles.
I respond by playing Reset, he REBs.
I FoW the REB.
He flusterstorms the FoW.
He is now full tapped, but still has FoW + Ponder in hand... I decide to play a mind trick, and Twincast his Flusterstorm, targeting Stifle. I don't mention any Storm Trigger (because Twincast does not trigger Storm), and hope he won't realize he can FoW the single copy. Not sure I should have targeted the Stifle here... but I end up with one untapped Island, with a hand of Reset + Snapcaster. I cast Reset, he FoWs...

I end up with only Snapcaster Mage in hand, with no High Tide in my deck... And die 2 turns after.

Also, @benthetenor, reading your post about FoW, I think I sided wrong, since I kept the FoW, and added 2 Twincast / 2 Flusterstorm in place of 1 Remand / 2 Snap / 1 Brain Freeze. My reasoning was that he would be able to answer Snap with Bolt / StP, and Remand is not very good against tempo (but still nice against Geist, or for fake combo). Reading your post, I think I should have gone -4 FoW + 2 Twincast + 2 Flusterstorm

[JDK]

Why would you FoW a six-turn (in the worst case!) clock? There should be enough time to find what you need.