It's your copy. You draw...
With Burn and UR Delver seeing such a surge in popularity, could it be correct to start sideboarding Hydroblast?
I've goldfished with 3 DTT maindeck, and it's insane how much gas and consistency it gives us. Due to the number of cantrips and fetches in this deck, you can usually cast it on turn 3 to find the missing combo pieces before going off on turn 4. During the combo turn, it's often better than Meditate, since it lets you find exactly what you need to continue your combo.
In this version of the deck, I decided not to play Snapcaster Mage / Snap. That way, I blank my opponent's removal and DRS. My graveyard is only used for DTT, which means I don't have to keep track of its exact contents, just the number of cards. If I were to play Snapcaster Mage, I'd have to keep track of which spells I want to exile for DTT and which ones I want to keep for SCM, which is mentally taxing. With no SCM in the deck, I can just take the top 6 cards in the GY and exile them, no need to choose the "worst" ones.
I think I want to go up to 4 DTT, not sure if I want the 4th one in the board or maindeck. If I add it in the board, I might want to move the 4th Meditate maindeck. Or maybe play 4 DTT / 3 Meditate maindeck, then exchange a DTT for a Meditate in sideboard games, when my opponent brings GY hate?
11 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brain Freeze
// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
1 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Misdirection
I'm currently testing 2 MD & 1 SB, without touching the number of Meditates though. Meditate is just too strong in this deck.
Will post my list once I have more results.
+1Originally Posted by JDK
I feel DTT should be a 1-2x main deck and 1x sideboard card.
This helps us to play 4x Meditate main (sucks to Wish for it...).
I am not sure we should cut the Snapcasters though.
3x main plus 2x Snap should still be very useful most of the time.
Here is my take.
I have tested 3 configurations, right now. And I cannot say which one is the better.
1) DTT over Snapcaster
2) Mix of DTT & Snapcaster
3) Snapcaster over DTT
The first conclusions I can draw from these configurations are the following:
- When only playing DTT, your main kill condition is BF as we no longer can consistently generate HUGE amount of mana through SCM shenanigans.
- When playing a mix, one has to pay attention at the killing condition you wanna/are forced to use (BF or BSZ) because your choice are really really bound to it and I failed sometimes because I incorrectly picked up some cards instead of others. Decision tree is wider.
- For now, DTT will at least be a 1-of in the side as wishing for it has been particularly strong (in every configuration). So it took the Medidate/Impulse slot in the side.
This is rather interesting and raises some other assessments about how do we like to kill ?
A) During the combo turn -> BSZ kill
B) BFeezing & Tapping opponent's creature to watch him die the very next turn
For me, the sooner, the better = during the combo kill.
No SCM / X DDT
You need to BF and BSZ to kill on the combo turn with configuration 1. So either you play BF main or you have to play 2 C.wish to get a BF & a BSZ to actually kill your opponent. Not that it is not possible but I found it rather meh. SirTylerGalt has chosen to play BF main deck along with 3 C.Wish which is certainly the way to go if you are interested in playing only DTT and 0 SCM. 6 to 7 untappers are mandatory in this version.
The main problem with this configuration is that you have to properly evaluate the "BIG" turn.
If you fail to get the BF & BSZ kill you might have to go for BF & Turnabout kill and if you fail, you have to go for the BF kill and hope you won't get kill in between the combat phase and the next upkeep phase just before your opponent dies.
The main advantage with this configuration is that you can more consistently kill by T4. No joke. You don't have to wait til the very last moment to go-off.
Don't get me wrong but as much as I do like killing by T4, it does not suit my playstyle. I like being re-active and not pro-active with this deck. But I might be wrong.
And "Oh boyz, I hate playing BF main deck"...
X SCM / X DDT
A mix between both.
As already stated by other people, you have to pay attention at what card you are removing when playing DTT. At first, I thought DTT & SCM could not cohabit in the same deck. But fortunately, if you play tight you may end up having access to both world.
I would even argue that on paper, DTT into a SCM + whatever combo piece you need is not far a 100 % win rate. It pushes consistency far beyond imagining.
What you lose from previous configuration is speed as you will likely cut into turnabout/BF main deck to play some SCM.
Blanking removal & dodging gravehate, are they reasons to stay away from this build ?
At first sight, maybe. After testing a mix of both is particularly tricky for opponent to play against, why ?
- activated ability of DRS must be played each turn if your opponent wants to put pressure on DTT. But doing so, it exposes himself to "in response to DRS activated ability, I flash in SCM, blabla screw you"
- if your opponent fears SCM's shenanigans, there will be less to no pressure on your grave and playing DTT will be easier.
Honestly, I prefer this configuration. SCM is just too good to be excluded.
Happy testing everyone.
Really interesting post Ralf, you gave me some food for thoughts. I think I'll go with 4 Meditate 3 DTT 2 SCM MD, and remove 1 Twincast, 1 Turnabout , 1 BF. I also need to try Repeal / Flusterstorm.
The problem with DRS is that they can often use it at the end of your turn, where it is harder for you to combo off, because Reset doesn't work. This means they can slowly eat your GY, while having DRS untapped on their turn. I guess Repeal solves this in your build.
For DRS:
- Before combo turn, you are digging -> if DRS is used at your end of turn, nothing prevent you from using your snapcaster in response to dig even more (opt, brainstorm, impulse are sometimes the way I cycle my snapcaster).
- During combo turn -> you cannot really avoid an active DRS, you will likely walk into one activation. Baiting your opponent is the best you can do.
For my build
While testing the 3 DDT MD I was playing 10 island 8 fetchs but more often than not I stumble on not finding the 4th land.
I have gone back to my personal build which I am more used because of all the intrigacies I've put in it.
Lands
18 island
Usual Suspects
4 tide
4 reset
4 repeal
2 impulse
2 DDT
3 Meditate
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
Kill condition
3 Cunning wish
3 SCM
Slow the game down
4 FOW
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan song
2 Remand
So few changes from the initial list:
The counter suite has evolved to include 2 SS instead of 1 remand & 1 fluster.
2 DDT came in to replace 1 Meditate & 1 Impulse.
Interesting.
While I understand the reasoning behind not playing fetches in your pre-KTK build (easier to find lands, no shuffle so easier to stack your deck with Impulse / Opt), I think Delve makes fetches necessary. Fetches let you cast DTT on turn 3 to setup the T4 kill. If you don't find lands reliably when playing 6 fetches, I would play 4 Impulse and possibly more cantrips (4 BS + 4 Opt + 1 Peek) to increase early turn velocity, and feed the GY for DTT / SCM. T3 DTT will often find the 4th land and missing combo piece.
Why not play Twincast instead of Flusterstorm / Swan Song? It's insane against counterspells (you just copy the spell they tried to counter and continue the combo chain until you can Remand/replay the original spell or counter their counterspell), and insane against opposing Treasure Cruise / DTT. You can also copy your own Meditate / DTT in matchups where they don't have stack interaction to punish you (risky against counter spells).
I'm not looking for T4 kill nor playing DDT absolutely on T4.
I'm more on the controlish side of solidarity than on the fast combo side of it.
Usually I'm fine with at least 5 islands into play.
DTT is a card that can be used as a setup engine but I do prefer it during the combo turn. It is far more powerful.
Impulse is a setup card rather than an engine because you don't make any card advantage
Meditate is used as a combo engine card rather than a setup one. I do use it as a setup card a lot but this is often when the game went pretty well and I have managed to prevent my opponent from putting any threat into play and I need to refill my hand to prepare the combo turn.
I might be wrong on numbers though. X impulse Y DTT and Z Meditate are factors to be found if you want to solve the solidarity big equation.
I've been gone for a while, but I'm going to be building this deck come December on MTGO. Would be willing to share videos once I get used to the deck again.
L2 Judge
I didn't explain myself correctly in my previous post. I was not arguing that you should always use DTT as a setup spell. I'm just saying it's helpful when you can play it as a "tutor" for the missing combo pieces the turn before going off. Playing fetchlands increases the odds of doing so.
Also, I'm not arguing that you should replace DTT and Meditate with Impulse. I was saying that if you have trouble making land drops, you should consider playing the full amount of Impulse, and increasing the Peek/Opt count, before considering the impact of fetches thinning lands from your deck.
Instead of cutting business spells like DTT / Meditate, I would remove a few controllish cards and go back to 4 Impulse. Consistency is more important than conditional counterspells and bounce spells.
Nice write up Ralf. I agree that having access to Snapcaster is still worth it, though I'm only sticking with one for now.
This is the list I'm thinking about running at the an upcoming SCG open:
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Peek
2 Opt
2 Dig Through Time
2 Cunning Wish
1 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstrorm
2 Remand
6 Fetch
12 Island
SB:
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Swan Song
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Twincast
1 Flusterstorm
I'm heavier on Peek simply because I'm not as confident as I want to be yet, so I value the hand information more highly than maybe I should. Otherwise I'd probably bump up the Opts, maybe play a third Dig Through Time, though two has felt about right for me so far. Still considering Hydroblast for the SB, I'd probably look at cutting one or two total of the following: Wipe Away, Twincast, Flusterstorm, Swan Song.
Snapcaster Mages and Dig Through Time can be played in the same list in my opinion. You only have to find the right amount of both.
I personally prefer running no Mages to leave my opponent with more dead cards in Game 1, which is supposingly the most important one.
But my testings make me feel, that without Mages consistency decreases, but yet Twincast does a really good job.
As I wrote before, I also don't run Cunning Wishes and I think with DTT it is even smarter to do so.
My current list looks like:
// Lands
11 Islands
04 Misty Rainforest
02 Flooded Strand
01 Polluted Delta
// Instants
04 High Tide
04 Reset
04 Meditate
04 Impulse
04 Brainstorm
04 Force of Will
02 Dig Through Time
02 Turnabout
02 Twincast
02 Brain Freeze
02 Opt
02 Peek
02 Remand
01 Blue Sun's Zenith
01 Snap
01 Repeal
01 Flusterstorm
// Sideboard
02 Rebuild
02 Wipe Away
02 Surgical Extraction
02 Polymorphist's Jest
01 Ravenous Trap
01 Dismember
01 Piracy Charm
01 Slaughter Pact
01 Pact of Negation
02 Mindbreak Trap
2 BF strictly better than 1 BF + 1 Noxious Revival
2 MBT in Sb are replacable by more Pacts, Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or even Envelop.
I'm pondering about a third DTT, but I'm not sure, if I really want it in my opening hand. And it's hard to find the place.
It doesn't help with landdrops, so maybe with 2 the right nummer is certain.
It is the best card, that helps regenerating after discard, so I don't want it to be discarded.
Discarding one combo-piece is better, because DTT usually nets you two of them.
It's good that the deck developes and there are many possibilities to run it. This makes it harder for the opponents to know what cards to expect.
I also agree that with a list like this you don't necessarily have to wait until the very last moment to go off, but that also extends our options.
Finally I want to mention that it feels absolutely great to win Game 3 against OmniTell through 2 resolved Defense Grid and 1 Leyline of Sanctity played through Show and Tell on my own turn thanks to Turnabout and Twincast. :)
Would you guys ever, at any point, consider playing Noxious Revival in a Solidarity list?
And for the Wishless builds, why is there a lack of USZs? (Edit: what I mean is, "is only a singleton USZ enough?")
I've found that 2 Blue Sun's is usually the best, one main one side.
I wasn't the first to consider playing it, but it was said that it is not strong enough.
Still it has some benefits, I just wanted to test, because I completely cutted Snapcaster Mages.
So if my opponent forced me to discard my two win-conditions, what rarely happens, it was an auto-loss without it.
Milling your own deck to thin it and/or to find a essential card with Revival and at least a cantrip in hand was also a smart play. It's even less mana-intensive as SCM.
Also returning some of the powerful cards during combo with Revival after playing a cantrip is way better than drawing an unknown card from the top.
So I think it's worth considering, but still not strong enough for an 1-of. So there are only few situations, where you entirely need it, but to make sure to have it, then you should probably run more.
My matches and testings never made me feel that I need more than one.
Making your opponent draw card(s) instantly is one way of winning vs. lethal on the stack or playing around cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
As I said you don't really need to wait for the very last moment to go off, you certainly can win games by only brainfreezing.
[cards]Turnabout[/cards) for tapping enemy creatures or postboard Polymorphist's Jest to reduce the amount of damage for winning with Brain Freeze.
Jest can also be used against multiple resolved hatebears before going off, but then you need at least 5 lands, what isn't impossible, because the clocks usually aren't that fast then.
Here are the two versions I'm considering:
1) Snapcaster version:
// Land [18]
12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
// Business
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
4 Meditate
2 Dig Through Time
2 Snapcaster Mage
// Cantrips
1 Peek
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
// Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Remand
2 Repeal
// Kill / Toolbox
3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze
// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
2 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap
2) Snapcaster-less version:
// Land [18]
12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
// Business
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Meditate
3 Dig Through Time
// Cantrips
2 Peek
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
// Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
// Kill / Toolbox
3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze
// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
2 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap
(It's -2 SCM -2 Repeal +1 Turnabout +1 DTT + 1 Remand + 1 Peek)
Things I'm debating:
- island/fetchland ratio: 10/8 vs 11/7 vs 12/6. Fetches synergize with brainstorm and DTT, but too many fetches means you will have a harder time finding your 4th and 5th lands... We must also consider life-loss and Stifle
- I don't know if we should use Repeal in the Snapcaster-less build, since it might be useless during the combo chain? But it's just so good to bounce a flipped Delver / Batterskull and cantrip for U! Or bounce a chrome mox in response to Infernal Tutor...
- In the Snapcaster-less version, should we play 4 DTT 3 Meditate main, and exchange the 4th DTT with the sideboarded Meditate post-board (in anticipation of GY hate)?
Last edited by SirTylerGalt; 10-17-2014 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Fix typo
Repeal can also be used during the combo chain. I cannot count how many times I used it on a snapcaster...
I would not overload the deck with DTT. The card is good, but multiple will stick in your hand. Meditate will always be castable on 3 mana.
Sidenotes:
1) without snapcaster, you'll lose more games against Temur Delver (canadian *****).
2) Repeal is MVP against any tempo.
My two cents.
Yes I know you can use it on a Snapcaster. That's why I wrote that I was wondering if we want it in the Snapcaster-less version. In the lists I posted, I put 2 Repeal in the Snapcaster build, and none in the other build. I was wondering if it's still worth it without Snapcaster.
I think you are right, I'll go with 4 Meditate MD and a DTT in the sideboard to wish for when the GY has enough food for Delve.
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