[Deck] Solidarity

[Ralf]

I think Ralf was explaining why he prefers Hurkyl to Rebuild in this quote:

Another reason Rebuild was played over Hurkyll's Recall, aside from the Chalice @ 2 problem, is that it doesn't target. But I guess decks that play both artifact hate and Leyline of Sanctity / Misdirection are pretty rare...

Fixed that for you.

Well, tbh, I lost a game because my "rebuild" was not a "hurkyl".

That 1 more CMC can be a matter of life or death... more than the chalice @ 2 issue...

[eostby]

-I also like Rebuild being able to Cycle, because sometimes when you USZ yourself for a number less than your whole library, you need to draw exactly one more card (that being the Zenith itself) and don't have an Opt available. (Note: this happened to me while goldfishing once.)

-As far as fetchlands go, I'm currently playing 6 of the 8 total blue fetches I own in my current build. (The other two are the 4th Delta and Strand.) While picking up Mistys and Tarns is certainly in my future, that's probably not happening before October at the earliest, given speculation about their return in Battle for Zendikar. Going 10 Islands/8 fetches might be an option worth trying, though.

-While I agree that trying to hit 5 lands is the goal, most of the games I played on Sunday never saw me get past 4 lands for a variety of reasons (mull to 5 game 1 against D&T, Pox doing Pox things, ANT going off early), so jamming a bunch of non-free countermagic seems suboptimal to me. I actually am considering dropping a Stifle into the board, since that might have been useful in a few games. Or am I just not understanding what I'm supposed to be doing with the deck in the setup turns?

[Ralf]

-I also like Rebuild being able to Cycle, because sometimes when you USZ yourself for a number less than your whole library, you need to draw exactly one more card (that being the Zenith itself) and don't have an Opt available. (Note: this happened to me while goldfishing once.)

-As far as fetchlands go, I'm currently playing 6 of the 8 total blue fetches I own in my current build. (The other two are the 4th Delta and Strand.) While picking up Mistys and Tarns is certainly in my future, that's probably not happening before October at the earliest, given speculation about their return in Battle for Zendikar. Going 10 Islands/8 fetches might be an option worth trying, though.

-While I agree that trying to hit 5 lands is the goal, most of the games I played on Sunday never saw me get past 4 lands for a variety of reasons (mull to 5 game 1 against D&T, Pox doing Pox things, ANT going off early), so jamming a bunch of non-free countermagic seems suboptimal to me. I actually am considering dropping a Stifle into the board, since that might have been useful in a few games. Or am I just not understanding what I'm supposed to be doing with the deck in the setup turns?

1) If you have drawn your entire library, then you should have seen all your 4 "opt". Having played every last one of them is either "unlucky"or a misplay on your side knowing that you were going for the USZ route. This corner case can happen but less likely than being dead because rebuild cost 1 more mana to play when you need to make a combo attempt facing taxes...
Not to mention that "impulse" is another out to draw your USZ...

2) Proxy some fetches until then and see how it goes. the 10/8 split might be better with your configuration, though.

3) What I have suggested are only basic options for current metagame (even if I wouldn't play Blue blast in the side atm):

a) Pox is somehow a bad MU. I doubt you really want to commit yourself unless your LGS is seeing lots of these kind of decks.

b) ANT is pretty common and with my config you should have more games G1:

Preboard => -1 fluster +2 remand -> you have 1 more way to interact with their combo engine. Even if remand is less powerful than fluster, remand could be a very powerful tool against any storm strategy because you are messing big time with their floating mana. Remanding their tutored card is usually game. Not to mention that having different type of interacting spells (FOW, remand, fluster) is usually better when you have to deal with cabal therapy...

Postboard => you become a pure nightmare for any storm strategy as you gain +1 fluster + 2 MBT + surgical + ravenous trap. No need to say that the odds are much likely in your favor (at least 65 % if not more)

The last time I have play-tested against a friend playing storm, I was something like 9 wins - 1 loss in 10 matches (involving 2 or 3 games per match pre and post side). Obviously my list is a bit different than yours but with the suggestions I gave you I would feel confident against storm.


c) D&T is also pretty common. Playing 3 snap MD might get you there by giving you the ability to delay their race by a whole turn if not more. 5 lands is very very likely to happen in such configuration. The fundamental part here is:
- pay extra care to the board state (vial and counters on it ? Thalia ? Mom ?).
- a competent D&T player will usually leave vial@2 against you to mess with your bouncing effect. Hurkyl/rebuild is your only out if his board includes a vial@2 because even if you bounce canonist/thalia with your wipe away, your opponent can always flash back it again with the vial.


If you really want to improve Pox & D&T MUs, you should consider cutting 3 cards in the side and put 2/3 spell snare as it is undoubtely the best counter against these decks (deals with Smallpox, Hymn, Sinkhole, Thalia, Canonist, Spirit of the... etc...)
Btw, it also improves your storm MU as being also a pure counter to IT, BW, Cabal ritual etc...

[eostby]

1) I don't recall exactly how I got to that point, but I was mostly suggesting that if I'm going to have one of Rebuild or Hurkyl's, I'll take the one with a second functionality besides just bouncing artifacts.

2) I've definitely got the time to wait and figure this out. I don't think the difference between 10 and 12 mana producing lands should be that big a difference, but I'll try proxying it for the next week or so to see how playing the deck feels different (if it does at all).

3) Since it was actually my first time playing at the store, I have no idea if that's the regular meta. Since the lone Pox player seemed pretty new to Legacy in general, I doubt that deck will be a huge problem to plan for. Funnily enough, the ANT player was also pretty new to the deck, it seemed. I do like the Flusterstorm/Remand swap at a minimum, and I'll look into getting a MBT or two. For D&T, I think I was playing fine, I just messed up an interaction because I didn't take the time to think it out all the way, and it cost me. The game where I mulled to 5, I just didn't draw useful things, and he did (he also mulled to 5, I believe). Might still get a Snare or two, since there's so much overlap for it.

All the feedback is really helpful, thanks. :)

[kombatkiwi]

Misty rainforest is usually played in Tempo strategies and does not fulfil the above mentioned "try to guess who am I" plan.

If your opponent makes the read that you're playing a tempo deck they will sometimes use their fetchlands awkwardly in an attempt to play around Stifle.

[Ralf]

If your opponent makes the read that you're playing a tempo deck they will sometimes use their fetchlands awkwardly in an attempt to play around Stifle.

If you are on the play, I think you will directly fetch for an island and won't try to mindtrick your opponent.
Once you have shown your opponent that you are playing basic island, the odds that you are also playing "stifle" is rather minimal.

All in all, I won't pretend playing a tempo strategy with solidarity.

Anyway do as it suits you !

[saidthefox]

So I've been messing around with this deck for a bit now. It's very fun to play and can leave your oponents wondering where it all went wrong.
However, it's slower and more play intensive than other combo decks and can be very punishing for a slight stumble - even with the deck being as redundant as it is.

I've seen a lot of lists going around adding Thought Scour's and Mental Note's in some number to the main. I don't really agree with this - the deck is slow. You optimally need 4 lands in play to go off - sure, you can do it with 3, but we all know it's difficult. The only thing that Thought Scour does is feed Dig Through Time...this deck already feeds Dig very well with all the fetchlands and cycling spells we run. I really think that there's just other, better, spells you can run in those slots. It also doesn't speed the actual combo up at all. It just plops two cards in the yard and doesn't have the added bonus of selection. If you think you can change my mind in this, please do so!

I had been running Disrupt for a bit as a two of but recently cut them both and an Opt for 3 Remand's in the main. Remand is insane in this deck! For a deck that is mainly just trying to survive for as long as possible, Remand buys turns exceedingly well. Also, have you ever Remanded a Force of Will? Disrupt was really cool when it worked, and sure, it always cycled itself. But having Disrupt in hand while their Counterbalance or Goyf resolved always, always felt bad. With Remand, at least you hit everything. And sure, whatever spell you remanded is almost certainly going to be played the following turn, more often than not that one turn, that one extra land, that one combat step, will make all the difference. 10/10 will keep playing Remand and highly suggest it to anyone else.

Speaking of counterspells, Flusterstorm is a great card! I love having it in my mainboard. I was running 3 for a while, but cut two and added 2 Swan Songs in their place. Why? Because I'm absolutely terrified of the oppressive lock that is CounterTop. Sometimes I want to splash black and green for Abrupt Decay is how bad it feels when they have it out. A good CounterTop player knows which cmc's to juggle around and to always keep a 3 handy for our Cunning Wish's. I feel like we have to be extremely, extremely lucky to get through it. If anyone has any insight or advice towards beating it I would love to hear from you!

Peek/Opt - I've never actually ran Peek - I saw someone write that it was like using training wheels so I just opted to act like it didn't exist. I absolutely love Opt though. That scry 1 is so relevant 90% of the time. I'm actually considering cutting Opt for Anticipate though. I'll probably start testing it within a few days. Card selection has always felt extremely important in this deck and while Anticipate is one more mana (trust me, I know how relevant that can be sometimes!) the bonus of looking at 3 cards might just outweigh it. Let me know what you guys think.

My sideboard is a whole lot of wish targets right now. I've considered cutting some down and just doing something like 3 - 4 Spell Snares in the side (Counterbalance, Goyf, Hymn). I don't feel like it's correct to do though so I haven't pulled the trigger. All stars for me have been Dig, Turnabout, Surgical Extraction (screw Iona), and Pact of Negation. Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's get an honorable mention

I appreciate any and all feedback - here's the list I've been running.

Deck: Solidarity!

Counts : 60 Main / 15 Sideboard

Creatures:3
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:39
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
3 Opt
2 Swan Song
3 Impulse
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time

Lands:18
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:15
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Repeal
1 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Rebuild
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time

[Oldsrocket_27]

11 fetches with 7 islands seems impractically aggressive.

[saidthefox]

11 fetches with 7 islands seems impractically aggressive.

At what point do you need more? At 5 lands I typically feel more than comfortable going off. At 7 in most cases you have an excessive amount of mana and can typically just Blue Sun them out of the game.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

[kombatkiwi]

Previously in the thread people have brought up the idea of playing Merchant Scroll, even though it isn't an instant and can't be played in the combo turn. Sometimes Quicken is suggested alongside it in order to enable mid-combo tutoring. Most people don't seem to think that this is worth doing however.

With Magic Origins we have a potentially even more powerful blue sorcery than scroll;

Day's Undoing 2U
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. If it's your turn, end the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)

Solidarity is already uniquely positioned to use this card, even without a Quicken effect. While other combo decks would have to cast Day's Undoing, pass the turn, give the opponent an entire turn to cast whatever they draw (discard spells, permanent hate, Lava Spike to the face) and have a combat phase, with Solidarity you could cast this in your own mainphase and then win in response to whatever they try to do in their turn.

With Quicken in the deck the card potentially becomes mid-combo Timetwister which is pretty absurd. You can even Quicken into Day's Undoing in your own turn in response to something (We both Draw 7? Exile your end-of-turn Entreat).

The cons are that using it as a setup spell can be pretty meh against counterspells (giving your opponent a fresh hand obviously sucks), casting it on your turn and then passing into an immediate win (mentioned above) requires 5 lands (and you need to be lucky enough to hit High Tide + Reset in the 7), and the fact that it shuffles your graveyard back in is a huge nonbo with current builds of the deck that rely on Dig Through Time and Snapcaster Mage. If you could successfully make a build utilizing Day's Undoing then the non-reliance on the graveyard would be a benefit but as with previous attempts at a Quicken version of the deck it seems like it might not be good enough.

Another less wacky suggestion from the new set:
Psychic Rebuttal 1U
Counter target instant or sorcery spell that targets you.
Spell mastery — If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, you may copy the spell countered this way. You may choose new targets for the copy.

Potentially a sideboard card? Compared with Misdirection/Redirect/Divert the effect is the same if used against Hymn to Tourach. With those two cards you can target yourself with your opponent's Ancestral Visions though which is pretty huge (against one of the main Hymn to Tourach decks where you would potentially want this kind of effect). On the other hand, this card is better against Thoughtseize and Therapy than Redirect, because you control the copy created and therefore you get to choose what your opponent discards from their hand. There is also marginal use for this new card in the remand-your-own spell situations (E.g. you target yourself with a large Blue Sun's Zenith, they Force of Will it, you respond with Psychic Rebuttal on your Blue Sun's Zenith). Right now I don't think there is any huge demand for this card but it is playable against the right opponents. (Although why you would want to play Solidarity in a Thoughtseize/Hymn metagame is another question entirely).

[fuga]

Previously in the thread people have brought up the idea of playing Merchant Scroll, even though it isn't an instant and can't be played in the combo turn. Sometimes Quicken is suggested alongside it in order to enable mid-combo tutoring. Most people don't seem to think that this is worth doing however.

With Magic Origins we have a potentially even more powerful blue sorcery than scroll;

Day's Undoing 2U
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. If it's your turn, end the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)

Solidarity is already uniquely positioned to use this card, even without a Quicken effect. While other combo decks would have to cast Day's Undoing, pass the turn, give the opponent an entire turn to cast whatever they draw (discard spells, permanent hate, Lava Spike to the face) and have a combat phase, with Solidarity you could cast this in your own mainphase and then win in response to whatever they try to do in their turn.

With Quicken in the deck the card potentially becomes mid-combo Timetwister which is pretty absurd. You can even Quicken into Day's Undoing in your own turn in response to something (We both Draw 7? Exile your end-of-turn Entreat).

The cons are that using it as a setup spell can be pretty meh against counterspells (giving your opponent a fresh hand obviously sucks), casting it on your turn and then passing into an immediate win (mentioned above) requires 5 lands (and you need to be lucky enough to hit High Tide + Reset in the 7), and the fact that it shuffles your graveyard back in is a huge nonbo with current builds of the deck that rely on Dig Through Time and Snapcaster Mage. If you could successfully make a build utilizing Day's Undoing then the non-reliance on the graveyard would be a benefit but as with previous attempts at a Quicken version of the deck it seems like it might not be good enough.

Sorry, but why don't use Time Spiral at this point? It 6 cc but it allows to untap 6 lands and no end of the turn also...
By the way it's not a great idea use sorceries.

[feline]

You could do Quicken and Day's Undoing.

You could do Quicken and Time Spiral but noone has done that.

You could do Meditate as it doesn't require Quicken, and they don't get any cards, you don't need a second card, meditate is already an instant, and the only drawback is you only get half as many cards, 4.

Really with Meditate & Dig through Time it's rare to have an issue drawing the entire deck once the combo starts going.

[jdc5011]

Evening. So I am relatively new to the solidarity thread and I stumbled on this list:

4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Opt
1 Repeal
2 Spell Snare
1 Brain Freeze
4 Impulse
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time

10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
1 Spell Snare
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

So I sleeved up a bunch of proxies and have been goldfishing with it a bit. Planning to actually start testing it (with proxies) this week. I was curious though as I've been doing some research and I noticed that this list does not run remand (this could be an old line, but I thought that a good way of getting around a countered combo was to remand your own BF and start over). Does snapcaster/snap replace that? Also if I wanted to fit remand in would it be a valid option to cut the spellsnares? I also am not sure that I want to limit the CW to 2 as I've found myself wanting to CW early in the combo but not wanting to leave myself out of gas with no option to win. Of course I've only been messing around with it for a few days so I'm sure that I'm not playing it correctly. Anyways, I think I just like to pick up difficult decks (been playing Grixis Control after stints on both D&T and lands but being paired against lands 3 times in a row in DC has got me looking at something a bit different).

Finally, is there any good suggestions for reading material that may help me identify wishboard cards vs actual sideboard options? Do you actually put SE in for G2/3 against Emrakul decks? It seems very reliant on resolving CW to actually have a shot of winning. Again, these are observations after only a few days of goldfishing. Sorry if I'm being ignorant.

[GoldenCid]

You could do Quicken and Day's Undoing.

You could do Quicken and Time Spiral but noone has done that.

You could do Meditate as it doesn't require Quicken, and they don't get any cards, you don't need a second card, meditate is already an instant, and the only drawback is you only get half as many cards, 4.

Really with Meditate & Dig through Time it's rare to have an issue drawing the entire deck once the combo starts going.

This is actually right. Meditate and Dtt are an explosive combiation. Instant speed. 11 cards from the top, for 5-7 mana total.

[grokh]

A new card spoiled today :



Is it playable in High Tide ?

[Ralf]

A new card spoiled today :



Is it playable in High Tide ?

Sorcery speed in an "instant" only deck...

[JDK]

Is it playable in High Tide ?

Is this even remotely a serious question?

[lexluthor]

Dig Through Time is banned !!!! Oh shit, and now?

Will be worthwhile to make a splash this deck?

[ExpiredRascals]

Dig Through Time is banned !!!! Oh shit, and now?

Will be worthwhile to make a splash this deck?

Unfortunately, I think DTT's departure means that Solidarity is dead once again. DTT was the huge power bump that the deck needed to become competitive again.

If you're committed to sticking with it, I suppose the fallback is [card]Three Wishes[/card], akin to this list from 2012 (which is the most recent non-DTT list that I could)

[bjholmes3]

Part the Waterveil not looking too shabby any more ;D