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Thread: [Deck] Solidarity

  1. #3961
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Infect can semi-regularly swing for lethal on turn 2.

    I think that black has a number of cards that Solidarity could reasonably use, but I always felt that if I was in U/B, a Tendrils deck was probably just better. Don't let that stop you from experimenting, though. If Solidarity is to ever be viable again it will be because someone thought way, way outside the box.

  2. #3962
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Requiem View Post
    I've not played Solidarity in ages. In fact, I ended up breaking up my deck and selling the pieces. But a consistent turn 3 win is a bare minimum for Solidarity to be competitive these days.

    The meta has changed in the decade or so since the deck was invented. There are aggro decks that can win on turn 2, which is the same turn the all main-decked hatebears land. Being a turn 4 combo deck is no longer a thing.

    That's why I used to play the green splash, as Hunting Pack enabled a lot of turn 3 wins. It wasn't enough, though, and at this point I'm not sure that even the unbanning of Frantic Search would be enough. Having to find High Tide on turns 1 or 2 (in order to combo on turn 3) is a tall order without Merchant Scroll.
    I beg to differ.

    Could you be more specific ?
    Aggro decks that can win by T2 ?
    All main-decked hatebears ?

    Looking at DTB and the meta in general, Legacy is more "midrangey" than ever, which actually, is not so bad for Solidarity.
    You don't need to win by T3.

    And if you are afraid from Leovold/Prelate, you should not. G1s are still very winnable.

    Nevertheless, I do recognize that postboard games are a "nightmare" and that's why I'm testing a completely new approach for G2 and G3.

    Regards,

    Ralf

  3. #3963
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Could you be more specific ?
    Aggro decks that can win by T2 ?
    All main-decked hatebears ?

    Looking at DTB and the meta in general, Legacy is more "midrangey" than ever, which actually, is not so bad for Solidarity.
    You don't need to win by T3.

    And if you are afraid from Leovold/Prelate, you should not. G1s are still very winnable.

    Nevertheless, I do recognize that postboard games are a "nightmare" and that's why I'm testing a completely new approach for G2 and G3.

    Regards,

    Ralf
    I already explained that I was referring to Infect, which was a DTB about a month back, so something that you can reasonably expect to face in a large tournament. My hatebear reference should have read 'all the maindecked hatebears'; I was referrng to the fact that there are decks, such as D&T - another DTB that you can expect to face - run hatebears (like Thalia) in their maindeck.

    I would say that a consistent t3 win is absolutely necessary for a combo deck. Burn can often kill you on turn 3. Turn 4 kills are no longer good enough.

    Feel free to disagree. But I put down the deck after years of reasonable success once I felt like WotC's efforts to improve creature based strategies had reached a tipping point at which Solidarity was no longer viable.

  4. #3964
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Requiem View Post
    I already explained that I was referring to Infect, which was a DTB about a month back, so something that you can reasonably expect to face in a large tournament. My hatebear reference should have read 'all the maindecked hatebears'; I was referrng to the fact that there are decks, such as D&T - another DTB that you can expect to face - run hatebears (like Thalia) in their maindeck.

    I would say that a consistent t3 win is absolutely necessary for a combo deck. Burn can often kill you on turn 3. Turn 4 kills are no longer good enough.

    Feel free to disagree. But I put down the deck after years of reasonable success once I felt like WotC's efforts to improve creature based strategies had reached a tipping point at which Solidarity was no longer viable.
    Both of them only represents 10 % of the meta (last two weeks) and 7 % (last two months) according to MTG top 8.

    I won't enter in any pissing contest, here; we all agree that Solidarity in its current form is no longer competitive.

    Nevertheless, my approach is different as I've duly noted that my G1s' win rate is really high. G2 & G3 are a complete different story, so is my matchs' win rate.

    So, I'll reformulate: Solidarity has reached a tipping point at which a pure combo strategy is no longer viable.

    Based on this "postulate", I've tried to make some evolutions, to the deck, postboard.

    The initial idea came, as aforementioned, from some previous success (other decks) with switching "roles" during postboard games:
    1) You take to counter the postboard plan of your opponent
    2) you drastically improve your matchs' win rate

    So I tried to come up with 15 sideboard cards not only to help beating those decks against which Solidarity struggles in the first place but also to provide another attack's angle.

    I do believe this idea has a lot of merits and that's why I'm sharing it with you. My play time is not very good but I've noneless properly tested what I'm suggesting.
    With some help (meaning some people buying into this idea) I'm pretty sure we could come close to something competitive.

    Cheers,

    Ralf

  5. #3965
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    What about adding a color or transformational sideboard?

    evolution is how we need to adapt
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  6. #3966
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardio View Post
    What about adding a color or transformational sideboard?

    evolution is how we need to adapt
    Solidarity, irrespective of colour or transformational sideboard, is at it's heart a deck that combos out by casting a specific card - High Tide - followed by a bunch of other stuff. That means the deck must find High Tide before it can combo out in almost all cases.

    Originally, when the deck was looking to combo on turn 4+, and Mystical Tutor was legal, this was not a big deal. You had up to 8 virtual copies of your key card, and four turns to find it. No bother. Now, however, you need to combo out on turn 3, and Mystical Tutor is banned. So you have less time to find one of half the number of copies.

    This is hard to do, especially when you need to make consistent land drops and assemble other combo pieces at the same time. It also makes you very vulnerable to various kinds of disruption, whether discard or counter-magic.

    High Tide (the deck) solves that problem with Merchant Scroll, which functions as High Tide (the card) copies 4-8. Unless and until Solidarity gets another instant-speed way of finding High Tide in the first two turns, the deck just can't get consistently faster.

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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    I understand what you are saying and feel that what we need is something to elongate the game a bit to get our pieces to go off
    I skimmed through instants and came to a bit of a list

    glorious end - the most extreme but ideally buying that one last turn we need
    angel's grace - not at its best against decks with reach like DRS
    fog - obviously the floor for timewalks
    commandeer - mostly for shock, only ideal in ultra niche situations
    epiphany at the drownyard - has this card been tested yet?
    mana short - seems like most nearly a 3 cmc timewalk
    render silent - i will admit i am reaching with this one
    teferi's protection - white timewalk cant be bad

    I understand finding combo pieces is key but buying time to do that is just as important.
    I am merely attempting to give an outsider/novice look at what may be the bandage for this decks wound.
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  8. #3968

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    One day maybe Dig through Time or Frantic Search will get unbanned. We can only wish. Or at least some better instant speed cantrips, that maybe could be reduced with Sapphire Medallion similar to that Ruby Storm I've read about. Impulse, some other instant search and cunning wish might be enough utilizing some Sapphire Medallions. Sounds janky.

  9. #3969
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardio View Post
    I understand what you are saying and feel that what we need is something to elongate the game a bit to get our pieces to go off
    I skimmed through instants and came to a bit of a list

    glorious end - the most extreme but ideally buying that one last turn we need
    angel's grace - not at its best against decks with reach like DRS
    fog - obviously the floor for timewalks
    commandeer - mostly for shock, only ideal in ultra niche situations
    epiphany at the drownyard - has this card been tested yet?
    mana short - seems like most nearly a 3 cmc timewalk
    render silent - i will admit i am reaching with this one
    teferi's protection - white timewalk cant be bad

    I understand finding combo pieces is key but buying time to do that is just as important.
    I am merely attempting to give an outsider/novice look at what may be the bandage for this decks wound.
    The trouble with this approach is that Solidarity is an open ended draw engine that relies on a combination of card advantage (Meditate) and card filtering (Brainstorm) to continually find more combo pieces while it generates enough storm to win the game. In this regard it is very much like Spanish Inquisition.

    What this means is that every card you add that is not contributing to the combo (ie, Fog, etc) is a card that is clogging up your hand on the combo turn, driving up your fizzle rate. People already find Solidarity to be less than consistent; what you are proposing would weaken the combo engine further.

    This is a very, very complicated deck. I would suggest playing a few hundred games before 'helpfully' suggesting radical 'improvements' to those that have dedicated years to learning how the deck works.

  10. #3970
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    @ Ricardio: I'm afraid Silent Requiem is totally correct. The more "tanking" pieces you add, the more you'll drive up your fizzle rate. Which is kind of really sad.

    This is why I'm not suggesting to change the MD (which is settled down for me at the moment).

    I did a lot of testing against the meta last christmas and here is where I am.
    Sideboard is still under brewing as unfortunately I didn't find the correct 15 to be able to fight back G2 or G3.

    My G1 win rate is still very good, though (except against tempo decks where it is pretty even).

    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    11 Island

    3 Snapcaster Mage

    1 Blue Sun's Zenith
    1 Brain Freeze
    2 Snap
    2 Remand
    2 Repeal
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 High Tide
    4 Impulse
    4 Meditate
    4 Opt
    4 Reset

    SB: 1 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Vedalken Shackles
    SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
    SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 4 Daze
    SB: 4 Thing in the Ice


    The major 2 changes MD were cutting 2 flusterstorm and turnabout for 3 spell pierce. I also cut an Island for another fetch.
    There are too many cards not hit by fluster right now, whereas spell pierce is a real contender.
    Eventually, playing 3 spell pierce helped me to delay the combo turn even further so that turnabout is no longer needed.

    G2 and G3 the plan is to cut the following (depending on the MU):

    - 4 High Tide
    - 4 Reset
    - 1 Brain Freeze
    - 1 BSZ
    - 0/2 Remand
    - 2/3 Meditate
    - 1/2 Impulse

    So you take out 15 cards for 15 cards in.

    I'm not totally happy with the sideboard. Titi is amazing but gets hit by REB, Decay (G3) and very often surgical extracted (G2/G3) which leaves me with very few wincons.
    If I play less than 4 you'll end up not having enough spells to play sometimes to transform him in a timely fashion.

    My next step is to try to include 4 Delver along with Titi.

    Regards,

    Ralf

  11. #3971
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Requiem View Post
    This is a very, very complicated deck. I would suggest playing a few hundred games before 'helpfully' suggesting radical 'improvements' to those that have dedicated years to learning how the deck works.
    This condescending, elitist speak makes no one want to bother. I was very explicit that i know little of the deck and nothing i would say had much of a foundation. i only wished to get a bit of insight into the current situation of the deck. good luck with your dead deck
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  12. #3972
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardio View Post
    This condescending, elitist speak makes no one want to bother. I was very explicit that i know little of the deck and nothing i would say had much of a foundation. i only wished to get a bit of insight into the current situation of the deck. good luck with your dead deck
    Do not try changing your story - you were not looking for insight, but 'to give an outsider/novice look at what may be the bandage for this decks wound.' You explicitly claimed your lack of knowledge as a virtue that allowed you to find a solution to which more experienced pilots of the deck were blind.

    That is condescending; my pointing out that the deck, and the issue it faces, were more complicated than you seemed to understand, is just plain common sense. I also went the extra mile and gave you a rough idea of the level of experience necessary to have a good understanding of the deck; a few hundred hands would seem extreme for most decks, but is about right for Solidarity, Doomsday, and Spanish Inquisition.

  13. #3973

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    And a few hundred hands is generous. There are issues with this deck, and with getting the most efficiency out of certain lines or certain card choices, that take more than a thousand games to clarify. If you thought Silent Requiem was being condescending, you really haven't read through this thread.

    There is no bandage for this deck. It's weakness is that it must play at instant speed, and Wizards has been intentionally not printed busted instants since the early 2000s. There are ways to build and to play the deck that make it a functional deck, but it will never be as good as a deck that is free to use more powerful cards. When Dig Through Time was legal, for instance, this was still maybe the fourth or fifth best deck with Dig Through Time in it. If this deck were ever going to be tier one, it would need a lot of cards, and more importantly, it would need a lot of cards that are better in this deck than they are in any other deck. We're talking like, blue instant Rampant Growth, unbanned Frantic Search, plus a functional reprint of High Tide or an instant-speed Merchant Scroll, just for starters. And even if all of that happened, the sorcery-speed High Tide deck would probably use those cards better, and even in that universe, that deck would still probably just be worse than Storm or Reanimator.

    This deck is sweet, and when you win it makes you feel like a genius, but it is severely under-powered. Adding Fog to the deck is not going to change that.

  14. #3974

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Just give me DTT back please. To hell with the format, I want to PEW-PEW people at instant speed. The least they could do is give us some busted UUU card. The biggest problem I find with this deck is that Meditate is your only source of CA, and you pretty much can't cast those until you combo off. If this deck had a simple 3cc spell that could actually generate some meaningful CA, then it would be a little better imo. Still shit, but a little better. I miss DTT so much.

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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    Just give me DTT back please. To hell with the format, I want to PEW-PEW people at instant speed. The least they could do is give us some busted UUU card. The biggest problem I find with this deck is that Meditate is your only source of CA, and you pretty much can't cast those until you combo off. If this deck had a simple 3cc spell that could actually generate some meaningful CA, then it would be a little better imo. Still shit, but a little better. I miss DTT so much.
    I would disagree here.
    This is more a YES and NO.

    Meditate can be cast when you have properly assessed that you won't be dead by the very next turn of your opponent. And that happens quite a non 0 amount of time (and even against tempo deck) to be fair:

    1) Am I dead if my oppo takes another turn ?
    2) YES or NO ?
    3) If no, cast medidate end of his turn.

    I would even state that if, in this very case, meditate resolves, I have likely win the game.


    Meditate is even more powerful the more cards you have to delay your opponent's lethal turn. Still as explained by Silent, you have to find a balance.

    You can easily throw your FOW/Snap early game to delay your opponent's beaters and cast a game breaking meditate to refill, depending on the matchup.

    I have also cast meditate to find a FOW in some MU where everything was lost except if I drew FOW off the meditate.

    This card really is busted...

  16. #3976

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    As much as I love the deck, I don't think the tools exist right now for it to be playable in the current metagame, or in the foreseeable future. Other decks have better disruption than before and faster clocks than before and we haven't gotten any new tools. DTT was what the deck needed to come back even a little, but as mentioned Solidarity wasn't nearly the best DTT deck, and the better decks lost us that tool.

    Card disadvantage options that give selection like Lim-Dul's vault don't work here as they can in omnitell because we require a critical mass of cards, not just A+B. This was why mystical tutor wasn't even all that good for the deck back in its heyday, and wasn't often played by those who put up the best results with it. There are pages of arguments over this point in the old archived thread. Besides, given a long enough game/enough land drops high tide isn't even always necessary to win, and can become a bait spell before starting a combo that could include a high tide later on or could simply tap/untap enough islands at the usual rate to get there anyway.

    That being said, if you want to play the deck anyway simply because you enjoy playing it, I think you have to pick an axis of interaction and go all in on it to keep the deck somewhat streamlined. On option go with a snap/snapcaster build possibly including repeal and try to use these tools to stave off creature offensives as long as possible before going off. This is a build that could consider trimming of FoW as well in my mind. Bear in mind that this keeps your opponent's creature interaction spells live. Another option is to trim on snapcasters and even moreso on snap, and play more cantrips and countermagic to keep the entire game on the stack and ignore the board as much as possible. This cuts back on how many decks will have multiple ways to interact with you, but it also restricts your play in that it forces you to be more defensive with your mana and cantrip usage, and makes a resolved threat that much more problematic for you. I think that trying to do too much of both leads down the road of trying to be a control deck that can't reliably combo off and win. In any case, this is a deck you play because it's ridiculous and challenging, not because you expect to take down a tournament.

  17. #3977

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity



    Make Solidarity great again

    Resets 5-8 have arrived

    instead of paying 2 to untap 4-5 lands, pay 3 to untap 3 lands and counter stuff

  18. #3978
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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post

    Make Solidarity great again

    Resets 5-8 have arrived

    instead of paying 2 to untap 4-5 lands, pay 3 to untap 3 lands and counter stuff
    Not tested yet but from a pure theorical point of view I doubt this is going to be the Trump card...

  19. #3979

    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Not tested yet but from a pure theorical point of view I doubt this is going to be the Trump card...
    It would have been if it had a built in cantrip. This way it’s just not playable with Flusterstorm around

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    Re: [Deck] Solidarity

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    It would have been if it had a built in cantrip. This way it’s just not playable with Flusterstorm around
    Frantic search would have been better but is also impacted by fluster.

    CMC 3 for non creature spells is a bummer.
    The lack of built-in cantrip might be the "no go" but only tests will tell (fizzling during the ombo turn as the card cannot be recycled).

    However it adds a line of play against opposite counter decks if you have at least 4 islands in play:

    1) Play HT. Tap all your mana. (6 mana in pool)
    2) Play Reset -> this is the first counter attempt (4 mana in pool)
    3) Play Unwind to counter (1 mana in pool tap again all the untapped island before resolving Reset -> 9 mana in pool) then play Meditate
    or
    3) Reset was not countered -> Play Meditate (1 mana in pool 4 island untapped)-> this is usually another counter attempt
    4) Play Unwind to protect your Meditate


    If someone wants to include this card, I think he has to get rid of the Snapcaster engine but I might be wrong at this point.

    Here again this is pure theory crafting...

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