[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[Di]

Can start off by cutting those useless Squee and Wood Elves in my opinion.


Or any card that is only there because you happen to have Survivals. No deck should ever be built to revolve around 4 cards. It should be the opposite, the 4 Survivals should revolve around the deck, and just "happen" to fit in. That's maximal efficiency.

Squee is the weakest maindeck slot right now, so that's the best possibility. I'm personally just a little uncomfortable removing him, because I've won a handful of games because of it. There's been more than enough times where having him (being another creature in my hand by dumping him the previous turn) has allowed me to do a lot more stuff. It doesn't force you to rely on Messenger for CA, which can be slow seeing how it costs 3G.

Wood Elves is very dependant on your playstyle with the deck. A majority of the time if I have Survival I will go to the throat with the Mirror Entity kill. If it requires Wood Elves, then I'll take the shot. Even without that, I haven't minded drawing it or anything.


Otherwise I'm unsure atm. The only other slot I'd look at is the 4th Perfect, which I'm almost ok with doing.

[georgjorge]

I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.


Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

[rsaunder]

Land, Queer ranger.
Land, Priest
Land, entity, Symbiote via priest for two, use priest's remaining floating mana to entity for 1. Then just do broken things with ranger then combo off.

[Di]

I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.

This requires a lot more effort and luck as well. Prior to me adding Mirror Entity that scenario you described was my main means of winning. It's much harder to do and is a lot more mana intensive. Plus there'd be times when I'd either wiff completely on Messenger or hit only one elf. At that point it's wasteful. Mirror Entity on its own, not even with the Symbiote combo, provides massive beats and allows you to go over the top compared to other aggro decks.

Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

Third turn kills are difficult, and can greatly differ on how they're played on depending on your draws, land drops, and non-creatures in the opening hand. Often times it will involve using multiple Wirewood Symbiotes to build mana and return creatures to pitch away. With Survival the most common way to do it is through opening a mana elf and at least one combo piece. After a couple games just played, I opened up the following hand:

Windswept Heath
Llanowar Elves
Taiga
Survival of the Fittest
Elvish Champion
Wren's Run Vanquisher
Wirewood Symbiote

For the sake of simplicity, let's just assume this is a goldfish so you know how to do it. I was also on the play here.

Turn 1: Windswept Heath -> Savannah, Llanowar Elves.

Turn 2: Draw Llanowar Elves. Play Taiga, Survival of the Fittest. Eot, Survival Wren's Run Vanquisher for Anger.

Turn 3: Draw Sylvan Messenger. We drew a creature so it's possible to win:
Survival Anger for Priest of Titania.
Play Llanowar Elves.
Tap both Elves to cast Priest.
(At this point, all lands and Elves are tapped, and have Elvish Champion, Wirewood Symbiote, and Sylvan Messenger in hand).
Tap Priest of Titania for GGG.
Survival Elvish Champion for Quirion Ranger, cast Quirion Ranger (G floating).
Activate Quirion Ranger returning Savannah and untap Priest of Titania.
Play Savannah.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG, Survival Sylvan Messenger for Mirror Entity. Tap the Savannah, cast Mirror Entity (G floating)
Cast Wirewood Symbiote
Activate Wirewood Symbiote, returning Llanowar Elves to untap Priest of Titania.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG (Llanowar, itself, Quirion, Entity), Survival the Llanowar Elves just returned to hand for Wirewood Symbiote.
Cast Wirewood Symbiote (GG floating).
Activate Mirror Entity for 1, return Symbiote, Tap Priest, repeat. Infinate mana, untap all creatures, do whatever, win.


Clearly it can be vulnerable as creature removal can stop that, but you aren't just going to go for it if the possibilities are slim, but the point is you can clearly achieve it. It takes a bit to pull off, but I've done the turn 3 kill in over a dozen different fashions.


Also on an unrelated note, I've cut Squee from the deck. Randomly drawing it and flipping it on Messenger came to the point where I'd get angry. My list isn't final yet, but I'll update it soon enough.

[georgjorge]

Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

[Di]

Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

Part of the reason I run multiples of Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote, in addition to them being very good by themselves, is to raise the possibility of doing the combo outside Survival. It doesn't happen too often, but I've done it a few times.

Also, I realize the high number of creatures needed for the turn 3 win, but also remember that there are only 22 cards in the deck (4 Survival + 22 land) that aren't creatures, so you already have a very high chance of drawing a lot of them. Turn 3 is slightly hard as they are all similar to the scenario I posted above, but turn 4 is much easier. Either you have an extra land or an extra creature, but either way it adds a lot more to it.

[Xenos]

The third turn kill can be delayed very easily that's true. Turn three wins happen all the time in Goldfishing but in real games it usually takes on average 3-7 (or more) turns depending on how much they are disrupting you.

But you're constantly making that threat to combo off and it keeps your opponent busy trying to stop it, so it does its job whether or not you actually pull it off.

As for the 6 creatures needed to combo, that's not necessarily true. The process of the combo itself is building up your creature count to the point of which you win. I don't know if that is what you meant or if you were saying you need 6 creatures to begin this process. I've often started with 1 or 2 Elves on the board and suddenly had my whole deck layed out on that same turn. I haven't determined the exact "rule" of how much mana/cards you need but often if you can get a Priest + 1 elf or more, and can manage to play a Messenger, there's a big chance that you can win on that turn, if undisrupted of course.

Anyways, with Savannahs, 4 Absolute Law should be considered for sideboard to swap for the Survivals in some matchups.

[Atwa]

At the moment I'm testing this build, if it works out well I might even play it in the dutch tournament to win a planeticket and hotel to the GP:

4 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priestof Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

SB:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

I really like the singleton Cradle in here, you almost never have in in your opening hand as your only land and it's pretty good when you draw it when builing up. The only problem I have with it is that it's vunrable against Wasteland.

Other than that, I guess this is pretty much a basic list. Are there any updates on the deck other should know about? I'm really tempted to include at least 1 Eternal Witness to the list.

[Di]

I'm going to assume Anger and Sylvan Messenger are supposed to be in there somewhere? Your list is only 54 cards, so I imagine you just forgot them, along with something else, which in my list would be Wren's Run Packmaster (your list also runs Squee over my 18th land). Packmaster has been very good for me, I'm really impressed with it. I've never been unhappy drawing it, as it provides a great role as a beater and make a lot of additional beaters. It's certainly better than Chameleon Colossus.

3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

My test board is looking very similar to this. Currently, it looks like this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw


This is pretty much solely focusing on the deck's worst matchups, being combo and dedicated board control. Landstill-esque decks might be the hardest matchup, but I've found them quite winnable too. I doubt that board is finalized for me, though.


On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

[Atwa]

You were right, I forgot the Anger and Messengers.

On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

I found a solution in this by playing a single Gaea's Cradle. This gives you the mana you need most of the time and keeps your land around 2/3, which is enough when playing so many mana-elves.

I need to test out Packmaster, I had it in the board for a while, but never actually sided it in.

About the sideboard, I really don't know yet. I'm planning on ging to this turnament after a brake of 1.5 year of tournament play, so I have no idea what to expect at the moment.

[Di]

Here is my report on my top8 finish with the deck. It was my first tournament with the deck, so I played a bit sloppy and even though I've been testing it and working for a couple months, was picking up things throughout the day. The list and sideboard are both a bit different than what I've been running, but it was a metagame decision.


Some thoughts on the deck itself though:

- My initial thoughts regarding the lords are correct. I wouldn't run any less than 8. Very rarely you can get stuck with under 3 mana and could have them clogged in hand, but otherwise they are straight gold. Either Perfect or Champion won me a majority of my games, and I always wanted to see more of them.

- Wren's Run Vanquisher is ridiculous. I don't know how I went down to two. Those will be going up. Packmaster will most likely be cut for another. Packmaster is good, but Vanquisher only costs 1G, so that can matter.

- 3 Symbiote is the correct number. I wouldn't run any more or less.

- Wood Elves needs to stay in the deck. There were a few games I couldn't have won without it, and it was always decent when I saw it otherwise.

- The deck's best matchups are blue, but there still should be sideboard geared towards them given how popular blue decks are. I only ran two Choke and I wanted more, they were gold whenever they stuck.

- Combo still sucks, but I don't know if it's worth putting so much effort in to fix. Even with all that hate it's still a miserable matchup.


Things I want to get around to testing:

- Wasteland. This deck is always ahead early game. It will always have more mana and more permanents. But sometimes I want another push so the opponent can't come back and stabilize. I was wishing Wasteland was in my deck all day because if I hit an opponent's land on turn 1-3 half the time they would've been so far behind it'd be difficult to catch up.

- Sideboard Price of Progress. A big issue this deck has is finishing once the opponent begins to stabilize. Often times you'll rush early and put them down really low on life, but need to work really hard for the last ~5 damage or so. Price is awesome against nearly the entire format, so it'd be dealing roughly 6-10 damage on average.

Otherwise everything was really good. I'm unsure as to what I'm going to do about my next list, I suppose only testing will figure that out for me.

[Atwa]

Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.

[Di]

Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.

Yeah the ESG thing is hit or miss, I dunno. I really love it sometimes, but then sometimes I wish it was a land. I had to throw away an AMAZING hand of ESG, Llanowar, Quirion Ranger, Priest of Titania, Survival, Elvish Champion, Sylvan Messenger because the ESG wasn't a land. I was very close to keeping that but didn't want to risk it. On the other hand, ESG was awesome against Daze. Against 4c Counterbalance my opponent tried to Daze my Survival then I pitched ESG, and he had to Force pitching Counterbalance. That was incredible. More testing will let me know, but I'm really tempted to adjust the deck a bit and put Wasteland in that slot.

1. I didn't miss the Archer, but then again, I never saw any flyers. I'm sure my stance would've changed a bit if I sat across from Tombstalkers and such, but I think if I went back to that slot it'd be another Vanquisher. The fact it's a 3/3 is huge. I won a few games on his back alone.

2. I probably won't go back to using Squee. The only time I wanted it throughout the day was when I was in topdeck mode with a Survival in play against Dreadstill, but at that point I was so far behind it wouldn't have mattered if I had Squee or not.

3. Being a mana sink is one of the best benefits for Packmaster. I'm not sure I'd cut it outright because it can be very good, but I'm just not sure. I need to find room for another Vanquisher somewhere, and that's the most flexible slot.

4. I admittedly don't know how to sideboard well with this deck; it's very hard. Throughout the day I was boarding very weird. If I was adding in 6+ cards, 1-2 Messengers would come out, along with stuff like Wood Elves, a Ranger, maybe a Symbiote, a lord, etc. If I was Bringing in Moon I'd take out 1 Entity. I didn't actually do this, but after talking about it with Birdman we think boarding out a Survival or two is the right call in a few cases. Post-board it can be rather weak in a lot of matchups as it's difficult to abuse outright, but is still strong enough to keep in the deck. It's something I'm hoping I can nail down by the time GP Chicago rolls around.

5. Eternal Witness is something I wanted a few times throughout the day, but so weak by itself in here that I can't justify running it.

[Atwa]

I am going to test this plan for a while:
Threshold (w Counterbalance):
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
-1 Survival of the Fittest
-1 Mirror Entity
+2 Choke
+2 Krosan Grip

Threshold (wo Counterbalance):
-1 Zealot
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
+2 Choke

Goblins:
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Symbiote
-1 Perfect/Champion (Perfect if he plays Rg)
+3 Pithing Needle

Dreadstill:
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Champion
-1 Llanowar
-1 Sylvan Messenger
+2 Choke
+3 Krosan Grip

Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus

Ichorid:
-1 Zealot
-1 Llanowar
-1 Elvish Champion
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm not sure at the moment what to use against Aggro Loam and Combo (Chants and Thorns mostly), but here is my take on some other matches for reference.

Especially Agrro Loam worries me. My sideboard is:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg.

I'm considering at the moment: Armageddon, Caller of the Claw, Vexen Susher.

[Nightmare]

I disagree with taking out Quirion Ranger vs. Landstill or Dreadstill. He's your best way to protect from Wasteland.

[FlavaSava]

Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus

I think boarding in Gaddock too is the right way (stops Humility,Wrath,EE,Elspeth,...).But I think adding 1-offs and removing Survivals which tutors for them isnt the right way.

[georgjorge]

Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

[Di]

Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

First off, thanks. :)

The Dreadstill matchup is highly dependent on the build they run. The list I lost to had maindeck Krosan Grips, Tarmogoyfs, and Fire/Ice, so that was much more difficult than traditional U/r builds. In the round I lost , game 2 he had a turn 2 Dreadnought with FoW backup and Wasteland to keep me off Grip mana (nuts), and game 3 he had triple FoW, double Fire/Ice, and a Firespout. I'd say a lot of luck was there as I ran over him game 1 and had a relatively easy time. And the other two times I played against it I won with relative ease but had to fight through Pyroclasm still. Even though they have a lot of bad stuff, at least post-board, I'd still say the matchup is in your favor. They have difficulty handling a lot of creatures and can get stuck with a Krosan Grip on their Dreadnought, and Counterbalance is rather weak against this deck as the bombs are all 3cc and 4cc.

Despite this, Pyroclasm/Firespout presents a huge problem for the deck. Any control deck with a red splash, whether it be Dreadstill, Threshold, Landstill, etc, will be running it. I like Caller of the Claw, but by itself I don't know if it can pull it's weight. This has been mentioned before, and I've looked at it as well but dismissed it, but I actually think something like Absolute Law needs to be re-examined as a sideboard possibility. Pyroclasm appears to be a lot more popular than Engineered Plague, and it's something this deck NEEDS to have an answer for. Unfortunately as much as I dislike Absolute Law I can't find a better answer really aside from additional Caller of the Claws. The only reason I consider Law over Caller (or rather additional Callers) is because Law is also very good against Goblins and Goyf Sligh.

I don't know if there's something that's gone over my head, but if anyone has any good ideas on how to fight Pyroclasm better please speak. Oh, and don't mention Bubble Matrix, card is worse than Absolute Law.

[anonymos]

Somewhat derailing the topic, but amusing people none the less.

So someone mentioned that Eladamri isn't an elf anymore. I was really confused to that change. Anyway, I found an error in gatherer when I was looking it up.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/Card....aspx?&id=4757

^^ Eladamri's Gatherer Result ^^

What does giving trample have to do with Eladamri? Shouldn't it be forestwalk?

[Swing4Five]

He is an elf, but they changed him to say "Other elves..."

The only time Trample has been mentioned in this thread is refering to pumping Sylvan Messenger.

'grats on the finish Di.