Hello all, a couple of months ago I made some changes on my Armageddon Stax deck, making it more suitable in a meta where Dreadstill and Team America (and other aggro in general) rule the scene. Originally I've posted the list in the Armageddon Stax thread, but since it acts differently in many ways, I was requested by a few people to start a new thread. So here goes :)
The major difference between Armageddon Stax and Dutch Stax is that Dutch Stax has a lower Armageddon count, no creatures and depends strongly on Moat and Humility.
Anyway, I'll give you my latest list:
Dutch Stax, by Team ADHD --aka $keg$tax, RichManStax. With red splash.
Sideboard Suggestion:Code:4 Moat 4 Humility 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 Armageddon 2 Ravages of War (running 3 Armageddon is also fine) 3 Smokestack 4 Chalice of the Void 2 Trinisphere 4 Mox Diamond 4 Crucible of Worlds 4 Oblivion Ring 1 Plateau 3 Ancient Tomb 3 City of Traitors 3 Mishra's Factory 3 Wasteland 9 Plains 3 Flagstones of Trokair
Mordel's list (no splash):Code:3 Boil 3 Sphere of Law 2 Wrath of God 2 Powder Keg 2 Trinisphere 3 Pithing Needle
Richpeoplestax.dec
Sideboard:Code:3 Mishra's Factory 3 Ancient Tomb 1 Kor Haven 3 Wasteland 4 City of Traitors 4 Flagstones of Trokair 8 Plains 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 4 Moat 4 Mox Diamond 3 Humility 3 Oblivion Ring 4 Chalice of the Void 3 Trinisphere 4 Crucible of Worlds 3 Armageddon 4 Smokestack
Update:Code:1 Oblivion Ring 3 Powder Keg 3 Sphere of Law 3 Defense Grid 2 Wrath of God 3 Tormod's Crypt
Another list, no splash:
Jedis Dutch Staxx by Christopher Johnsen
Sideboard:Code:3 Armageddon 4 Humility 4 Moat 3 Oblivion Ring 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 4 Chalice of the Void 3 Crucible of Worlds 4 Mox Diamond 3 Smokestack 4 Trinisphere 3 Ancient Tomb 3 City of Traitors 1 Dust Bowl 3 Flagstones of Trokair 2 Horizon Canopy 3 Mishra's Factory 8 Plains 2 Wasteland
Card choice explanation:Code:1 Wrath of God 1 Oblivion Ring 3 Runed Halo 1 Sphere of Law 4 Defense Grid 2 Powder Keg 3 Tormod's Crypt
Moat and Humility create in an aggro-match ups a soft-lock by themselves, and a hard lock when they are both on the table.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant has really great synergy with both Moat and Humility and is a good win-condition.
The low count on Trinispheres is because people can often play around it. It's actually only good against combo and therefor I only placed 2 maindeck. The reason that there are 2 maindeck is because it does create a hardlock with Smokestack out.
Only 6 double-mana lands and 9 Plains: this is largely a meta-choice. My meta has quite some Wasteland, Back to Basics and Blood Moon-effects. Also, Dutch Stax has alot of cards costing; so we're desperate for that second white mana.
Plateau and Boils: against stuff like MUC I would prefer Defense Grid, but MUC isn't the only deck that plays alot of islands: Dreadstill, Team America, Threshold, Landstill, Faeries, Merfolk; they all rely heavily on blue mana. And they don't always counter everything you cast, they also cast pretty big threats. Boil is often an unexpected surprise for them. I also used to play Red Elemental Blast, but that only turned out great once.
Wrath of God: Goblins, for instance, often play a green splash for Krosan Grip nowadays. When they can't attack you because you have Moat and Humility, they simply have to build up their army and Grip the Moat. The Goblins may only be 1/1 but a huge swarm of them pack quite a punch still.
Powder Keg: I used to use Engineered Explosives in this slot, to blow up stuff like a Dreadnought. But then I met Gaddock Teeg. This little guy really kills the deck and must be dealt with asap. Engineered Explosives can't, because it has X in it's cost. So in with the Powder Kegs. When you know you have a possible Gaddock Teeg against you, try and resolve a Humility asap because you have no chance for that once he hits the table. A resolved Teeg can be tackled with Oblivion Rings and Powder Kegs.
Current problems:
Dutch Stax basically has some problems which are also found in Armageddon Stax. Being a prison deck without draw or tutors, we're very topdeck dependant. That makes us vulnerable to heavy control like MUC and heavy discard like Eva Green or The Rock. Also, Stax needs alot of permanents on the board, so cards like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg really hurt us.
The main thing Dutch Stax is really aching for is carddraw. The best candidate so far to accomplish this is Horizon Canopy. 2 or 3 copies of Horizon Canopy would also allow a light green splash, allowing City of Solitude, Choke and Compost, which are good against decks Stax traditionally has a problem with (the red splash for Boil would be dropped ofcourse).
Update:
The 'Jedis Dutch Staxx' list by Christopher Johnsen runs 2 Horizon Canopy, purely for the draw.
Notable results:
- 2nd place in a 41-people tournament. List. (Black splash!)
- 2nd place in a 24-people tournament. List.
- Dutch Stax took 2nd place at a 70-person tourney in Germany...
- 3rd place at a 31-people tournament: Report
Last edited by Skeggi; 03-02-2009 at 06:52 AM. Reason: update :)
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Very nice, I hope to complete my playset of Moats, Humilities and Elspeths so I can play some tournaments with it.
With the foray into red, I'm wondering if Ajani Vengeant (or whatever his name is) wouldn't be worth looking into. Pinpoint removal is good, I hear, as is additional land destruction.
Skeggi, I like your deck a lot!
Nice to see someone promoting the Netherlands, haha.
A bold idea: Why not cut the Smokestacks (in a Dreadstill/TA meta)?
I would say: -3 Smokestack, +1 Armageddon, +2 Trinisphere
And maybe then you can go: -1 Land, +1 Ajani Vengeant?
Trinisphere is not only good against combo, it buys you time to drop humility/moat against aggro or to play an armageddon effect against control.
Btw.
I think I played against you at the LCQ Dutch Masters, you're Joost if I remember correctly, very kind player!
Richard ten Brink (MUC)
I've tested with Ajani. He was actually the primary reason to try a red splash. But the poor guy moved from maindeck to the sideboard to the collector's binder. There are simply better cards that fill his slot. He has been amazing occasionally, but it was very situational.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Smokestack is still a strong card that eventually grabs your opponent by his balls and tears them off. Especially with Elspeth and Crucible you can easy keep it at 2 and lock your opponent down. The replacements you mentioned are situationally better, but in general Smokestack still is an awesome card.
Yeah that was me. I totally failed there though :)
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
17 W sources are enough ? I mean that Threshold who plays 17/18 lands does not expect to find 2 lands without cantrips. The problem begin that you don't play cantrips.
I also think that you don't need 4*crucible. 2 or 3 should be enough. As said before I'm quite sure that 4*trinisphere is necessary. As you have a strategy a lot based on mana denial, don't you think that Moat would be nicely replaced (at least partially) with Ghostly Prison. I mean that Ghostly Prison + Humility is as much a combo as Moat + Humility. Or at least in SB, don't play WoG over GP. I will finish the MD by saying that your land repartition is a bit surprising (I would rather play 3*4 lands than 4*3).
About the SB, why red, why Boil ? Why not green and Tsunami and Quiet Disrepair (so good against burn, but bad against deed). Against black you could play Compost too. I guess that you don't want to rely too much on green, but anyway, I was wondering...
Yes they are...often enough.
I've been thinking of dropping the Crucible count too. But it's just too good with Mox, Smokestack, Wasteland and Armageddon. 3 may do it though, go ahead and try I'd say.
That depends on the meta I guess. Trinisphere really is something against combo in my opinion.
No I don't. I rely on the fact that creatures can't do anything anymore.
That would make the deck Armageddon-dependant. I've been there. The deck was called Armageddon Stax. It really gets pwned by Thoughtseize and Force of Will.
No it's not. Moat makes sure creatures cannot attack. Thefor Ghostly Prison is often payable. Given, most of the time with a Humility and a Ghostly Prison in play the damage won't be alot. But there will still be damage. It can take quite a while to draw Elspeth. Also, on its own Moat is better than Ghostly Prison. So is Humility.
WoG deals with swarms. Very nice. It also clears the board which is sitting ducks behind a Moat so your Smokestack can finally kick in.
So how would you do this?
Boil is instant, Tsunami isn't. The rest is sub-par. I may be inclined to actually go with a green splash instead of red, but then because of Choke, Exploration and Horizon Canopy. And yes, then I will probably also consider Compost.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Make a choice and know that you won't randomly encounter the card you've cut. I don't know which choice is the right one though (even if Mishra sounds poor).So how would you do this?
Reading your answers, it looks to me that your basic strategy is to land Moat and pray that your opponent does not have any solution. First I thought it was more subtile: prevent your opponent from playing any spell and THEN land a moat. In that case, I find Ghostly Prison far better. And you would not be dependant anymore on finding WW. You have 16 cards that make GP as good as Moat (if not better): crucible (+mishra or wasteland), smokestack (2 or 3 turns later), armageddon, Espeth and ... another GP. You also have 4 cards that deal with big attackers (Oblivion Ring). All that makes me think that GP is probably better, or at least that a split 2/2 or 2/3 would be smart.
About the SB, I think that against swarm, you should not try to play Stacks (+ WoG) anymore but maybe Magus (in SB) or additionnal GP (if you don't play 4 MD).
Mishra's and Wasteland are both very good and should certainly not be completely cut. Whether 3 is the right number for them is debatable. 3 Flagstones is the correct number in this deck: 2 or less is bad, 4 is too much. The double mana lands I've cut from the traditional 7/8 to six, because they don't produce white mana and have significant drawbacks.
No
Correct! However, this often results in Chalice@1, Chalice@2, Smokestack, or Recurring Wasteland to keep them off green.
It's not. Ghostly Prison requires Armageddon to function. Even with the Armageddon count at 5, you often only draw 1 which gets discarded or countered.
Anyway, all your suggestions lead to Armageddon Stax, a build that has proven itself to be quite good, but certainly has its flaws. Dutch Stax also has flaws, but in my meta they are fewer than Armageddon Stax's. I've explained in the Armageddon Stax thread that the deck is simply too Armageddon-dependant and thereby not consistent.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Also, keep in mind that Ghostly Prison doesn't stop creatures from attacking Elspeth. Ghostly Prisons say "can't attack you"
The ONLY situations where Prison would be better than Moat is a) against flyers b) when you don't have WW. In all other situations, it's worse or just as good (well, I guess it's also better against incompetent opponents who pay 2 to attack even when they should use their mana to play spells, but we can't count on meeting those except when testing on MWS).
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
It makes sense that this deck is in n&d right now, but it is a shame at the same time because the deck is fairly well-developed and tuned, but it has flown under a lot of peoples' radar due being discussed on the geddon stax thread...here come the same questions, suggestions and critiques all over again =/
I am going to have to disagree the muc having an advantage in a match up even against my build:
They have to try to counter virtually every single spell and that just isn't plausible sometimes. I have an extremely good record against muc right now. Maybe I have been playing terrible players though.
Richpeoplestax.dec
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)
// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
Either way, aside from individual metagame tweaks and tremendous sideboard tech this deck is pretty much done being developed imo...it just needs to start puting up results, which may take a while due to the four moats.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
Is this really true?
Yes'm.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
@ Mordel
RE: the MUC vs. Stax (Dutch or Armageddon), I think you've just been playing against bad MUC pilots. In no way do I, as the MUC player, want/need to counter EVERY single spell as you stated. In fact, half the spells in your deck don't matter to MUC. The only "must counter" spells you play are Armageddon, Smokestack, Humility (if MUC build is playing bounce, then not even this), Elsepth, and maybe Oblivion Ring (only in unique situations). Everything else isn't worth countering as (a.) it will not affect MUC in any relevant way (why would I counter Moat?), or (b.) I can simply reset the board if some of your permanents do resolve.
Back to Basics, run as a 4 of, shuts down 18 of your 26 lands, greatly impeding your ability to play your spells. From there, the MUC player should be countering the "must counter" spells you do try to play, and letting the rest resolve. MUC will bury you under actual card advantage as your virtual card advantage engine largely unaffects MUC.
Seriously, try to find better MUC pilots playing better builds, because it doesn't sound like your MUC pilots are doing things correctly. Either that, or you've gotten the god hand a lot of times. Meh, I don't agree with your assessment that MUC doesn't have an advantage over Stax.
I think you left 3sphere out of the must counters, which shuts off one of muc's best cards.
I should try to find better muc players, but luckily muc is about as poorly represented as stax. I am actually not really concerned about the dedicated permission match whatsoever.
I don't go to big events really, but if I did, I would be quite happy with beating the tar out the more popular decks in the format. The biggest problem presented is that the fundamental strategy of X stax is an inherently flawed strategy when it comes to facing muc aside from landing a turbo smoker, which I have done before and this has completely fucked them (resolving a second turn smoker against muc has always struck me as fluky).
Worrying about a match that my deck really has no business winning strikes me as very stupid. If I win it, that's awesome and sometimes amazing, if I don't, I am not very surprised.
In defense of muc, I tend to lump it in with more permission-based dreadstill decks, which is bad because these decks forgo hard counters and trappings of muc for CB/Top, stifles and other such stuff that improves its match against just about everything else, other than X stax. Which is sort of an ironic thing if you think about it.
With how extremely good some of this deck's matchups are, it would almost be a crime for it to perform similarly against storm combo and muc because you'd have a "best deck" on your hands quite possibly. I am sort of back peddling, but in my defense: I did point out that I have quite possibly been playing against terrible pilots.
Last edited by Mordel; 01-19-2009 at 04:29 PM. Reason: left thoughts out.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
Well, in the Dutch meta, we have a guy named Fahad Saleh. He may just be the best MUC player in the world, he was so good with the deck, that he inspired many other players to pick up MUC, and now MUC is in the Dutch meta a DTB. I can tell you, more and more players in the Netherlands have stepped up to play it. Only a handful are actually good with the deck, but when they are, they're almost impossible to beat (with Stax that is).
On to developping Dutch Stax. In the opening post I've dropped a few ideas about splashing green instead of red. I've come up with a list and am willing to test the following:
Dutch Stax, green splash, Team ADHD
Sideboard idea:Code:4 Moat 4 Humility 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 Armageddon 2 Ravages of War (running 3 Armageddon is also fine) 2 Smokestack 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Exploration 4 Mox Diamond 4 Crucible of Worlds 4 Oblivion Ring 4 Horizon Canopy 4 City of Traitors 3 Mishra's Factory 3 Wasteland 8 Plains 3 Flagstones of Trokair
I've dropped all the Trinispheres to the sideboard because it's really only good against combo. It's not good against MUC because they play 24 land and can simply pay the mana (that's also why they can recover pretty good after an Armageddon).Code:4 Trinisphere 3 Choke 2 Compost 3 Pithing Needle 3 City of Solitude
I've also dropped a maindeck Smokestack (I think we'll live), a Plains and the Ancient Tombs.
In return I get a draw engine named Horizon Canopy + Exploration + Crucible of Worlds. The working is obvious I guess...
Exploration is ofcourse not so good against a Chalice@1, but in my games I've noticed that I prefer Chalice@2 most of the time anyway.
I'm not sure if these are the correct numbers for everything, perhaps some 4-ofs can now be lowered because of the draw-engine, I don't know. I guess I'll first have to test and see if this won't be a total fiasco
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I think that you'll want at least 1 savannah that could be fetched with flagstone. I also think that you should stick with late game green spell (meaning no exploration) because you can't rely on having green mana and exploration at the same time in your opening hand.
The Savannah is a good idea, I'm inclined to try that. Exploration however, is the key to a working draw engine. It's something I was always aching for in Stax. Without Exploration, we may as well cut the entire green splash. 4 Horizon Canopy and 4 Mox Diamond (and perhaps that Savannah) may give enough green mana. You don't need it in your opening hand though; would be better if it could, but you can't expect to have Exploration in your opening hand anyway.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I've had Dutch Stax built since this thread was started oddly enough and I've been testing a build that was very close to the original posted build with minor splashes here and there. Though it's been a few weeks since you last posted Skeggi, I was wondering how the green splash for Exploration has turned out. I've been testing blue splashes mostly but the cards I've been testing have been fairly lack luster in effect. To name them, I've tried Intuition, Academy Ruins, Thirst For Knowledge and Jace Beleren. The only card I want to make work is Jace but the double blue is tremendously hard to cast unless the mana base is reworked with more than just a single Tundra that is fetched by Flagstones of Trokair.
In regards to the green splash, did you ever try running Sylvan Library? I noticed you said you tend to set Chalice@2 first instead of @1. Is this why you'd favor Exploration over it or is it simply the idea hadn't come to mind? All in all, I enjoy the deck thoroughly and look forward to any improvements it might have.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote