I own a playset of altered memnite (2 as finn and jake and 2 as random doodles), it is quite literally my favorite card, it is also the most useless card in the entire deck when you look at what rug delver brings to the table, but I still do enjoy having the card in order to help smooth draws. it is up to you on whether you want to shave the playset or just cut 2 but both worked for me.Originally Posted by Shawon
the game against storm ended with 14 goblins in play a whipflare in my hand and no way to cast it *shrug* I would bring in the second one over the 3rd RiP because they rely on both PiF and Emtpy as MD win cons so being able to beat both of those and cut dead cards is relevant.
Etched champion is not an aggrssive card, he's a hill giant with protection, he is purely an attrition card in my mind and combo decks and control decks that you can't interact with you don't need a 3 mana 2/2 that just gets wrathed or terminused off the board. i would rather spend 0 mana on a 1/1 then 3 mana on a 2/2
RiP is the best GY spell not close, the deck runs 13 sources of white mana and has the ability to cast it t1, against dredge we do not 100% need it on t1 and it is fine to play it t2, reanimator i will agree with is rough, and I did consider cage in the SB over a RiP to run a 1/2 split. but that is just preference.
Signal Pest is still one of the best cards in that it helps you run well and is better than some dead card in the deck, it makes your "kobolds" relevant and pressures the board, a lot of match-ups its just an innocuous 0/1 lord effect, in other match-ups it is a card I know I can take out to chalice my opponent, + when you have 2 of them in play the damage output is disgustingly good.
The best part of Bridge is that you can attack through it with thopters and pests, the general power of a creature in our deck is 1 so it's not hard to get bridge to be valuable.
:)
A 'hill giant with protection?' You can say the same thing about True-Name Nemesis. Both TNN and Etched Champion are cards no control decks ever want to see, Terminus or not, because they limit interaction with their removal without hindering your interactions with Equipment.
Also, don't you run Ravager? You can easily make Etched Champion bigger than a 2/2 if you want to apply more pressure.
The key to beating Miracles is to play your threats conservatively and forcing them to cast Terminus, all the while sticking important cards down on the battlefield, say Cranial Plating or Tezzeret. Resolving Cranial Plating is doable since you can cast it on turn 1, or if you're like me, you can resolve it safely through Stoneforge Mystic's activated ability. Resolving Tezzeret takes patience because you want to make sure you cast everything else first. You don't want to walk into a Spell Pierce, and because Tezzeret is your absolute best card against Miracles since it disregards Energy Field, you desperately want your Tezz to resolve no matter what. Once you resolve Tezz, it's pretty hard to lose since all of Tezzeret's abilities are useful against Miracles.
If I'm certain there is no Reanimator in my meta, then I see no point in running graveyard hate period (unless I know Storm = only ANT). LED Dredge might warrant gy-hate, but I've found Manaless Dredge really easy to beat without graveyard hate.RiP is the best GY spell not close, the deck runs 13 sources of white mana and has the ability to cast it t1, against dredge we do not 100% need it on t1 and it is fine to play it t2, reanimator i will agree with is rough, and I did consider cage in the SB over a RiP to run a 1/2 split. but that is just preference.
I kind myself falling in and out of love with Signal Pest, and I'm currently hating it again. The damage output is pretty good when you are left unchecked... but if your opponent has ways to interact with you, say through any of the means I listed in my earlier post, then Signal Pest just becomes depressingly bad. You make a good point about Bridge, though.Signal Pest is still one of the best cards in that it helps you run well and is better than some dead card in the deck, it makes your "kobolds" relevant and pressures the board, a lot of match-ups its just an innocuous 0/1 lord effect, in other match-ups it is a card I know I can take out to chalice my opponent, + when you have 2 of them in play the damage output is disgustingly good.
The best part of Bridge is that you can attack through it with thopters and pests, the general power of a creature in our deck is 1 so it's not hard to get bridge to be valuable.
RiP comes in against non reanimator/dredge decks, Jund, Shardless, Rug Delver, Aggro Loam, Lands, all of those decks utilize the graveyard, and while the cards I take out are different from match to match I will always want Rips against these decks.
Etched Champion does 0 things against miracles. for 3 mana you get a 2/2 that you spent 3 mana on, they have a low creature count and I would rather go under them, they also bring in ensnaring bridge out of the board which does little against an army of 0/x and 1/x creatures. cranial plating and tezz are great in the match up and so is ravager but im not going to keep playing etched champion because it makes my ravager better when it is already good on its own and champion isn't pulling his weight.
trust me I keep in champion in numerous match-ups where I need to get through creatures or attrition the game down with an unstoppable threat (for the most part) RUG, Shardless, Jund, D&T, Goblins, any deck that has creatures and that I need to get through. but he is not worth the investment in miracles especially when they can just get rid of him with little easy with their 4+ "wrath" effects.
Also Ravaging an Etched champion is not something I am going to do unless I absolutely have to or if the ravager get's removed, or if it will win the game and i know my opponent can't interfere with it happening, otherwise I am not just going to invest time and permanents into an unsure thing.
also a semantics thing but True-name nemesis can never be a hill giant, he has more base power :)
I still don't know why you think Etched Champion is useless against Miracles. If you have a resolved Champion with a Plating attached to it, they can Entreat for X = 12340, and all of those Angels still wouldn't be able to prevent you from attacking for lethal next turn. Nor can they rely on Snapcaster Mage to chump block and rebuy any STPs. They have few outs against Etched Champion. If they use what's likely to be their 2nd Terminus on a lone Champion, that is good news, because you can just reset your offense with more creatures you drew, or cast Tezzeret.
Etched Champion is most definitely not irrelevant against Miracles. If you land a Champ + Plating, they have to find (another) Terminus within 1-2 turns. This is another reason why I run Stoneforge Mystic. It increases your threat density by finding Platings (or Batterskull), and it can ignore the Miracles player's countermagic with its activated ability.
Cutting creatures against Miracles doesn't work like it would against RUG or other fair decks, because those other decks have adaptable roles. Miracles only has one role in this matchup: control. Trying to beat Miracles by out-controlling them is counterintuitive, because Affinity isn't built to play like control at all. It's easier and more effective to simply remain as the aggro deck. By cutting creatures, you make your deck less aggressive and thus worse, specifically because you are making Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager much less relevant since you have less interactions on the board.
What are your thoughts on running pithing needle in the side?
I was thinking of running something like this on the weekend
Creatures
4 Ravager
2 Etched Champion
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
Spells
4 Thought Cast
3 Dispatch
Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
4 plating
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Tezzeret
Land
4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
1 DarkSteel Citadel
1 GlimmerVoid
SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 RiP
Welcome to The Source, Dwell. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, including what I think about Pithing Needle; however, I highly recommend you elaborate on your own thoughts if you want to engage in healthy and productive discussion. For example, could you explain what experiences or thought processes lead you to question if Pithing Needle is good in the SB? Also, when you post a decklist, you might want to preemptively talk about card choices if you know people are going to ask questions about them, such as the 2/2 split between Vault of Whispers and Darksteel Citadel, or 3 MD Dispatch.
Re: Pithing Needle, I think it has lot of merit as a SB card, but I doubt its overall usefulness compared to Phyrexian Revoker. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down many of the same cards that Pithing Needle can shut down in certain matchups, such as Sneak Attack. However, Phyrexian Revoker can shut down cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, a critical component of Storm decks, and Pithing Needle can't.
Another note is that it needle is a nonbo with chalice as well. if you are worried about sneak attack I would play ensnaring bridge, if you want to hedge agaisnt multiple match ups i would play revoker, although one of the match ups where you want needle is in D&T to shut off jitte which does in fact beat you thoroughly and chalice does nothing in that match up so needle is better there.
all in all needle isn't that great and does not go well with chalice in certain matchups, I would rather see you play revoker as well
:)
So I've recently just been getting back into Magic I saw Drew Levin's article, and man do I love affinity so here I am. I also recommend this article (http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...with-affinity/) by Frank Karsten. I know it's modern so much of what he says isn't true of the legacy format, but I think his general thoughts on the deck are useful since the engine of the deck very much carries over.
I've been testing Levin's Turbo Affinity list so here are some of my thoughts thus far:
- Ancient Tomb is incredible. I would not run less than 4 having tried them now.
- I'm pretty sure 17 lands is correct based on my testing, though I reserve the right to change this one later.
- Tezzeret is soooo good, but some games he can be quite difficult to cast. Need him to have any hope against miracles though. He's also the only card I really worry about spell pierce on.
- I agree with his sideboarding philosophy though not necessarily his sideboard. IE sideboard cards should be absolute bombs and dramatically tilt the game when they resolve.
- I'll probably change his 3 mindbreak trap in the sideboard to whipflare. I'm slightly concerned about not having red mana to cast them. Also, having no sideboard cards for sneak and show is rough.
- Considering shaving 1-2 memnites and maybe 1 thoughtcast (blasphemy I know) for something like master of etherium. I really just want higher bomb density in the mid to late game. Really curious on other people's thoughts on this.
As far as pithing needle vs revoker, I'm not really sure I would play either. As I said above I really want my sideboard cards to have a big impact on the matchup they are intended for. It's nice when your bomb sideboard cards also happen to be serviceable in other matchups, but I don't think the main mentality of affinity should be serviceable, it should be blow you out. Like naming sneak attack is alright, but if revoker/needle is your plan for the matchup, you're going to be pretty sad when they just cast show and tell. Similarly naming LED vs storm is pretty bad vs a hand full of rituals. So like Shawon said what's the target? If it turns out naming jitte vs DnT is that big a deal (I haven't tested this enough) then sure, but if needle/revoker is just undirected hedging I don't think it will buy you enough in your bad match ups to be worth the sideboard slots.
Don't cut Memnites from the MD. You can cut them post-board between games, but if you cut them MD, then you make all of your other cards worse, like Mox Opal, Ravager, Thoughtcast. You want to see hands like "Artifact Land, Mox Opal, Memnite" often.
If you want to improve your threat density, do what I did and cut Signal Pests for Stoneforge Mystics. You have more consistency in having Cranial Plating on hand, and if you include Batterskull, you have the option of forcing your opponent to use removal on SFM, or punishing them for not having removal. Also, with the Ancient Tomb manabase, casting Batterskull foris a doable task.
Cranial Plating aside, I think the less considered but more important aspect of Stoneforge Mystic is Paradise Mantle accelerating the deck into Tezzeret, that has really won me more than my fair share of games.
Thank you, someone gets it...
I definitely agree that there is a delicate balance between having enough engine type cards and bomb threats. I feel like I can get away with cutting one memnite from the main, but it is not something I will do lightly or without more testing.
I actually like signal pest in the main, the few points he chips in are relevant and being a cheap one mana artifact helps the deck run smoothly. Not to mention his psuedo flying when he picks up plating. I'm not in love with him but I think he plays an important role right now.
On the other hand I really think SFM is not good in this deck. He's slower, clunkier, and less powerful then tezz. A hand where sfm is my only threat is an auto mulligan I think. Batterskull doesn't seem to fix any real problems. I'm the beatdown almost always so my life total doesn't matter. Unless it's combo in which case the skull is way too slow. I think the best thing you can do is get a plating which means five total mana to get it equipped. Master is three and also provides a body with toughness and glorious anthem. Lastly, sfm is not an artifact so he can't do things like turn on metalcraft, affinity, feed ravager, or take modular counters. I'm already playing twelve non artifacts when I would prefer only like eight, sixteen is definitely not where I want to be. Really I just think there's a reason sfm only sees play in midrange to control type decks.
Signal Pest is explosive, but it makes the deck more fragile against fair decks that are prepared to interact with you. It only makes the deck better when it wins. It has really bad lategame value, and there are lots of cards Legacy decks run that incidentally make Signal Pest bad (Baleful Strix, Vendilion Clique, Grim Lavamancer).
Don't knock it until you try it.On the other hand I really think SFM is not good in this deck. He's slower, clunkier, and less powerful then tezz. A hand where sfm is my only threat is an auto mulligan I think. Batterskull doesn't seem to fix any real problems. I'm the beatdown almost always so my life total doesn't matter. Unless it's combo in which case the skull is way too slow. I think the best thing you can do is get a plating which means five total mana to get it equipped. Master is three and also provides a body with toughness and glorious anthem. Lastly, sfm is not an artifact so he can't do things like turn on metalcraft, affinity, feed ravager, or take modular counters. I'm already playing twelve non artifacts when I would prefer only like eight, sixteen is definitely not where I want to be. Really I just think there's a reason sfm only sees play in midrange to control type decks.
He's faster than Tezz because it's cheaper. However, I'm talking about SFM replacing Pest, not Tezz. It is slower than Pest, but it adds way more resilience to the deck.
Batterskull does fix problems. The deck loses a lot of life from Vault Skirge and Ancient Tomb, if you haven't noticed. Finding Skull with SFM forces your opponent to deal with SFM immediately, and this is a good strategy to use if you already have Plating in your hand, because they're in a damned-if-you-do situation and you always have an option whether they choose to interact with SFM or not.
I would agree with you about SFM being clunkier if all you're doing is fetching Cranial Plating. However, if you have other options (Batterskull, Paradise Mantle, Umezawa's Jitte), SFM becomes a real roleplayer and skilltester card.
Below are my old posts regarding Stoneforge Mystic in Affinity a month into testing Affinity:
More than that, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't actually address specific matchups. What matchups are you losing because you can't find Plating fast enough? Etched Champion is a 2/2 for 3 and it hardly seems fit in a fast deck, but it actually helps matchups such as Maverick or Stoneblade because they can't rely on blocking your attackers or using Swords and Snapcasting Swords to stop you, that's why it's in the deck.It took me a LONG time to come around to Stoneforge Mystic. What helped convert me to that idea was not looking at Stoneforge Mystic as a replacement for Tezzeret, but a supplement to Tezzeret.I think the people who bring up Stoneforge Mystic neglect to ask themselves "Why would I run this over Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?" or "If I already run Tezzeret, why would I want to run Ancient Den over Darksteel Citadel?" That last question is pretty much what I asked myself when I was running Galvanic Blast, except with Great Furnace instead of Ancient Den, obviously.
Unless of course you're playing against inexperienced Manaless players, as I am near-certain I've lost maybe one or two rounds in three years against Affinity playing Manaless.
Manaless has more threats that gum up the board as opposed to LED Dredge. Sure, Ravager handles Bridges. But the problem for Affinity becomes sacrificing board-density to make up for Bridge triggers. This creates discrepancies when attacking with Affinity, as the crack-back is generally more crushing - in addition to Dread Returns pipe-lining immediate combo finishes.
Contagion also creates issues in the early game depending on the list.
I just think you're way underestimating the match-up, here.
Oh, I definitely haven't faced anyone playing Manaless Dredge who's proficient with the deck as you are, Hollywood. You're probably right that I'm underestimating the matchup. However, I don't think I'm completely disadvantaged since I'm also a fast linear deck as well.
I'm aware of Contagion. That's actually another reason why I took out Signal Pest. I faced a Cloudpost player who likes to practice playing Manaless Dredge against before a tournament starts, and even though I won a game 1 against him, I did get hit with Contagion, so that probably did influence my decision that day to cut Pests for Mystics. Good choice, too, because I top4'd that tournament.
SFM+batterskull is slower than tezz. It costs 3W and essentially has double summoning sickness. If you cast SFM on T2 your batterskull isn't attacking until T4 while any other creature would have made an impact on T3. Even if you cast Tezz on T3 he activates twice by the time batterskull attacks, and hopefully you did something else on T2.
In many matchups the life loss just doesn't matter. Most of the time I lose the game when my opponent begins stabilizing regardless of my life. In G1 my goal is basically to always kill them by turn 4 or 5.
However, the utility of SFM is inarguable. What matchups do you think it's really helping you in though? I don't mind trying it out but, I feel like in your example if I could choose between SFM fetching batterskull or MoE, I would almost always rather have MoE. SFM dies to any burn spell, dismember, etc. while MoE will deal more damage when he attacks, attack a full turn sooner, and immediately pump my team.
I wasn't talking SFM + Batterskull is faster than Tezzeret. I was talking about SFM in general. If you're casting SFM on turn 1 with a Kobold in play, on turn 2, you can Vial in Plating - circumventing countermagic, one of the main reasons why SFM is good, I forgot to mention - and swing for 5-6 on turn 2. That's pretty fast damage, faster than what you could've done with Signal Pest, actually.
You can't just think about SFM + Batterskull when evaluating SFM. You have to think about SFM acting as Cranial Platings 5-8, a Tinker -> Batterskull, a Birds of Paradise, and possibly even a "Tap target Emrakul!" (Leonin Bola - BTW, Leonin Bola makes SFM a sick card to "Show" against Sneak-Show)
I mean, yeah the objective to win by turn 4, but that doesn't always happen. You need to be able to win if the game comes down to a stalemate/grind, and the lifeloss does matter sometimes if you're facing decks that use red spells as an alternate way of winning (see: RUG).In many matchups the life loss just doesn't matter. Most of the time I lose the game when my opponent begins stabilizing regardless of my life. In G1 my goal is basically to always kill them by turn 4 or 5.
RUG is a good example where SFM shines. It resolves your Platings so you can ignore their numerous countermagic, and if you already have a Plating in your hand, you can force them to use their Lightning Bolt on SFM instead of the flier you're inevitably going to attach Plating to. Cuz Batterskull.However, the utility SFM is inarguable. What matchups do you think it's really helping you in though? I don't mind trying it out. But, I feel like in your example if I could choose between SFM fetching batterskull or MoE, I would almost always rather have MoE. SFM dies to any burn spell, dismember, etc. while MoE will deal more damage when he attacks, attack a full turn sooner, and immediately pump my team.
Miracles is another. Again, you are resolving your Cranial Platings, and having access to Batterskull makes SFM a good card to play post-Terminus. It becomes easier to play your offense conservatively, whereas with Signal Pest, you're forced to go all-in if you want to make a dent on your opponent's life total.
SFM has ETB value, that's why it's better than Master. Also, it's cheaper, so you can actually take advantage of brutally fast openings with two mana on turn 1. Master of Etherium is clunky because sometimes you just don't have blue mana, and it's a huge mana sink for a robot that can easily be removed by spells cheaper than it (STP, Decay). I don't agree with everything Drew Levin's said about Affinity, but he said it better than I could when he considered MoE as "the classic winmore card."
Can you post your list so I can test it out? RUG is one matchup where I think signal pest is probably better, but I guess I'll find out.
The only thing sfm dodges that plating doesn't is spell pierce. And if you're resolving SFM there's a good chance you could resolve MoE in which case they are just dead unless they have an ancient grudge. If they do have grudge sure having MoE sucks, essentially they are up a mana on you, but if you had batterskull instead you spent two turns instead of one and just ended up with a squire. Ideally you just hard cast a plating in this situation. Realistically that's all I ever want to do since plating is that good. Plating for four mana over two turns is just not the same.
It seems like batterskull would be good in this matchup, though they have two full turns to find an answer and they are probably spinning top. Signal pest is obviously miserable here. I think I would prefer Tezzert #4 first, and then I'm not sure what would be ideal after that. Every match I play against miracles feels super hard unless I just draw the nuts.
I think you're right and MoE is probably too slow and it does cost colored mana. SFM has the same problems though. It may have a good etb, but once it's there it's a 1/2 that's not even an artifact. SFM is so good in other decks because they have some ability to protect it and more interactive cards that allow them to do stuff other than just attack while they get their Batterskull online. Affinity just isn't built like that. 2WW for a 4/4 just seems worse than 2U for a 6/6+Anthem. If MoE is win more then SFM is win way more. Levin actually just says, if MoE isn't doing it for you then stoneforge is probably just worse, and steelshaper's gift is probably better than sfm anyway.
i have run affinity way back in the days when i started playing competitive magic
steelshapers gift is awefull, i know that for sure, also i did never really like signal pest in the deck either, but if you got 2 of them on the board its like a blowout as your aggropotential rises exponentialy with every pest you got
i believe that running pest allmost forces you to run MoE as well for the "lord effect",.... without one or the other both cards get worse because of consistency
if you are not running either SFM is a really good option for u, because it adds utility, consistency and synergy (plus SFM itself is a threat in affinity, just like every other creature with a plating attached)
stoneforge mystic is not exactly what i would like running in affinity, BUT SFM is in fact consistency and utility, which makes him quite a good catch in affinity there is no doubt about that, just imagine you having a lot of small dudes on the field, an empty hand, but plating nowhere to be found, in that case you will just lose the game
this is exactly the reason why SFM and also Ravager are good in affinity, because they add consistency, and legacy is all about consistency
just my 2 cents,... if someone thinks i am way of the track, just tell me
i for my part still prefer the red-splash over the whitesplash, but that would be a metadecision (whipflare is awesome IMO.... and still you get some ways to combat combo outside of ethersworn canonist
i have been tinkering with MD chalice and sideboard thorn of amethyst against combo, but Red Elemental blast would be another quite good card against combo, allways depending on which combo-decks you are facing the most
chalice + thorn is very strong against storm type of decks
REB does not like chalice , but it is very strong in the show and tell matchup i think, also against any deck that runs mainly blue (but i have to admit that i did not test REB yet, due to not having time to play at the moment)
tell my your thoughts on it :P
What's the point of all the weak one drop dorks and Affinity cards? I always thought the point of the deck was the scalable bombs? Shouldn't something like this be really playable right now in the Delver meta?
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Mox Opal
1 Paradise Mantle
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Cranial Plating
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Master of Etherium
Just drop game winning bomb after bomb until they run out of counters and removal.
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