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Thread: [Deck] Affinity

  1. #1401
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    It's possible, AggroSteve, but why would you run both of them and not run 12 artifact lands?

  2. #1402
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    it's just theorycrafting

    besides if i would run both i would not run a playset of each

    the 12 artifact lands have priority of course, after that i would maybe play a 3/2 split to get to 17 lands

    3 ancient tomb for speed
    2 inkmoth (why not blinkmoth? could do basically the same, because usually we allready dealt damage for it not to matter which one we take) for utility

    i think i would go with that, ...... sure you would not allways get your nexus but its not definitely needed either, ancient tomb on the other hand helps the basic gameplan of the deck, and acts as another "pseudo-artifact-land" therefore i would give ancient tomb priority

    still i have allways been a fan of decks that have some tricks people would not even immagine

    affinity is one of those decks.... that is what i learned with my first magic deck ever, specially arcbound ravager is such a complex card, but can be soooo extremely powerfull with a champion or a nexus on board (with the right decision of course, which is not allways easy)
    i basically only play decks with loooooots of tricks in them (and none of them is blue.... i hate blue :P)

  3. #1403
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Running 2 Nexus means you won't be able to reliably draw one late-game when you need it. Your split sounds good in theory, which is why you should actually test it to see why running only 2 manlands isn't a good idea in a deck with no card manipulation.

    Inkmoth is way better than Blinkmoth Nexus. They're incomparable. When you go for the Inkmoth angle, you're not doing it not to finish off your opponent's life total, because many times their life total is too high for you to win before they stabilize or win.

  4. #1404
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    yeah, the thing with the lifetotal of my opponent being to high was the only good reason i could come up for using inkmoth over blinkmoth

    still you are right on the fact that this deck runs little to none library manipulation, but that does not really force us to use 4-offs only

    the way i see it is, that inkmoth, while being good, is not usefull in every matchup, basically only in stoneblade matchups where the opponent had a batterskull for long (which should not really happen as they should fetch jitte first) or some sort of nic-fit deck with angel of thune + spike feeder combo, but i would say it is allready that much of a bad matchup, that inkmoth would never be able to do much of damage either way

    right now i could not think of other matchups where the life total of opponent rises to a non dealable amount, only of matchups we have a hard time dealing damage all along, and i think only in this matchups inkmoth really shines (probably miracles)
    but against miracles we allready have champion and tezzeret, inkmoth would be a plus, thats for sure

    but still it is all just theory in my head now

    but if it would prove that 2 inkmoth would not be enough i could see myself going for a 3/3 split, losing one of the artifact lands maybe

  5. #1405
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by AggroSteve View Post
    the way i see it is, that inkmoth, while being good, is not usefull in every matchup, basically only in stoneblade matchups where the opponent had a batterskull for long (which should not really happen as they should fetch jitte first) or some sort of nic-fit deck with angel of thune + spike feeder combo, but i would say it is allready that much of a bad matchup, that inkmoth would never be able to do much of damage either way

    right now i could not think of other matchups where the life total of opponent rises to a non dealable amount, only of matchups we have a hard time dealing damage all along, and i think only in this matchups inkmoth really shines (probably miracles)
    but against miracles we allready have champion and tezzeret, inkmoth would be a plus, thats for sure
    One word: Combo. I described how I killed Storm twice with Inkmoth. You want 4 so that you have the option of going for a quick kill. It can and has been done.

    EDIT: Inkmoth is also good against edict effects ala Liliana of the Veil.

    it's just theorycrafting

    but still it is all just theory in my head now
    Less of this, and more testing, please.

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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Affinity just top 8'd SCG Oakland. This is the best list I've seen top 16 all year.

    Is the Thoughtseize noted in the MD actually Thoughtseize or a typo for Thoughtcast? If the card noted was something like Thoughtpicker Witch, the typo would be obvious, but it's possible that the player, Ian Anderson, might have opted to run MD THoughtseize instead of Thoughtcast. It's very unlikely since Thoughtcast is the best nonartifact spell in the deck, but it's possible. Curious indeed.

    EDIT: Yup, it's Thoughtcast, according to quarterfinal coverage.

    It's good to see a SCG grinder pick up on Academy Ruins and not just pack a random Tundra because Drew Levin said so. God, I still can't get over that.

    I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty skeptical about Rest in Peace. How's everyone else's experience with RIP? I mean, it's not exactly hard to cast RIP on turn 1, and it is the most impactful gy-hate you can play against Dredge, but I highly question its consistency to get cast or even resolve against Reanimator. Has anyone found Rest in Peace reliable against Reanimator, or have they not tested the matchup?

    EDIT (1): Ian Anderson loses the semifinals against Charles Gordon playing Deathblade.

    If you analyze game 1 closely, you will see why I prefer Stoneforge Mystic over Signal Pest. I fall in and out of love with Signal Pest, and reading the coverage for game 1 reinforces why Signal Pest is poor in Affinity. Signal Pest commits you to only one plan, which is to overextend your offense into a swarm for quick damage, and it's a plan that's way too easy to disrupt by an opponent who's prepared. Stoneforge Mystic gives you the plan of being aggressive by finding Cranial Plating, and insuring its resolution, or it can allow you to play defensively by fetching Batterskull. The versatility that Stoneforge Mystic offers in Affinity far outclasses the explosiveness that Signal Pest only variably supplies.
    Last edited by Shawon; 12-09-2013 at 12:05 AM.

  7. #1407
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    It's good to see a SCG grinder pick up on Academy Ruins and not just pack a random Tundra because Drew Levin said so. God, I still can't get over that.
    I'm interested to find out if Academy Ruins was ever useful. I might still want Glimmervoid or City of Brass there. Seems like the edge any of those three cards provide is pretty marginal though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty skeptical about Rest in Peace. How's everyone else's experience with RIP? I mean, it's not exactly hard to cast RIP on turn 1, and it is the most impactful gy-hate you can play against Dredge, but I highly question its consistency to get cast or even resolve against Reanimator. Has anyone found Rest in Peace reliable against Reanimator, or have they not tested the matchup?
    I haven't tested against Reanimator, but you should remember that RIP is also good against cards like Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Life from the Loam, etc. Crypt, Relic, or Cage are all kind of underwhelming or completely irrelevant against those cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    EDIT (1): Ian Anderson loses the semifinals against Charles Gordon playing Deathblade.

    If you analyze game 1 closely, you will see why I prefer Stoneforge Mystic over Signal Pest. I fall in and out of love with Signal Pest, and reading the coverage for game 1 reinforces why Signal Pest is poor in Affinity. Signal Pest commits you to only one plan, which is to overextend your offense into a swarm for quick damage, and it's a plan that's way too easy to disrupt by an opponent who's prepared. Stoneforge Mystic gives you the plan of being aggressive by finding Cranial Plating, and insuring its resolution, or it can allow you to play defensively by fetching Batterskull. The versatility that Stoneforge Mystic offers in Affinity far outclasses the explosiveness that Signal Pest only variably supplies.
    I think it's interesting we can read the same report and draw two totally different conclusions. Signal Pest dealt Charles 6 damage that game. If Ian went first OR Gordon missed a land OR Gordon didn't have his two of Supreme Verdict then Ian probably wins that game mostly on the back of signal pest providing 9 extra damage on T4. This is especially impressive considering Ian's opener was quite weak and he lost a Thoughtcast on top of starting out with a mediocre hand. I really don't see how SFM helps in this game even ignoring the fact that Ian kept a one lander (which I assume was Seat of the Synod) so a SFM without other action would have been a mulligan. In the early game Charles probably would have had an extra turn to find verdict and in the late game giving him 3 turns to find basically any removal spell is way too slow. Also, getting a batterskull and playing defensively against that deck? He has Jace, TNN, and a bunch of efficient removal. You're going to lose that way 99% of the time. Realistically, given the two players hands, I think Ian pretty much needed to follow up with Tezz.

  8. #1408

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    I'm Ian Anderson, so thanks for all the good things you guys have been saying about my list. I really don't deserve it though, I put way too much time into testing standard and basically no time into prepping for legacy for SCGOAK. You'll notice my list is really only a few cards off of Drew Levin's. I'll be changing that before the invitational in Vegas this weekend though, as a few things, mostly my sideboard, really under performed. It didn't matter though, as affinity was a perfect match for the meta. It really seemed like everyone wanted to play true-name, but nobody (besides the eventual winner) packed anything to handle their opponent's true-names. If people follow his lead and start running more supreme verdicts and zealous persecutions affinity might not be a good choice.

    The thoughtseizes in the list SCG has were definitely thoughtcasts. I think the most obvious mistake I made though was playing spell pierce over thoughtseize in the sideboard though. Pierce is better against miracles, but thoughtseize is pretty much better against everything else.

    I'll be writing up a tournament report soon where I'll try to go into more detail on my thoughts on the deck, but for now I'll try to respond to a few things that have come up recently in this thread. First, for those of you that insist on cutting signal pest I really think you need to playtest with it more. You need all the cheap artifacts to make the power cards good (platings, Tezz, ravager, and etched champion to an extent) and pests make draws with too many of the cheap cards still winning hands. I had multiple turn three kills throughout the day, including one on a mulligan to 5, none of which would have happened without signal pest. In the semifinals, if I went first I win that game, and if signal pest was anything else it would be a mulligan.

    I like the idea of some sort of search though, especially since I'm convinced Jitte should be somewhere in the deck. I just don't think you can cut one of your cheap evasive creatures, especially the only one that makes your multiple memnite-ornithopter draws keepable.

    Academy Ruins probably won me 1 game throughout the day, and had an impact on a few more. I used it for everything from getting back a mox opal to cast Tezz, getting back cranial plating 4+ turns in a row until my opponent was out of counters and artifact removal, getting back etched champions until my opponent couldn't find a terminus or verdict, and even getting back an artifact land to make a Tezz ultimate lethal. I'm completely redoing the sideboard, so I might need it to be an extra multicolored land like City of Brass. It does give the deck a level of inevitability even against decks full of counterspells, since even True Name usually ends up needing to be held back as a blocker (besides against UWR delver with its 8 one mana removal spells).

    Inkmoth could work, but you couldn't cut 4 land for them so you'd either play less than a playset or have to cut some creatures for them. It's also pretty mana intensive if you are putting platings on it, and with so many wastelands and one mana removal spells you can't afford to target it with ravager's modular unless it is a last resort.

    I played Greg hatch in round 6 I think (need to check my notes) and he was playing merfolk. He told me he wanted to play affinity for the event, and had been messing around with the idea of a list including 4 true names (he inspired my comment in the player profile regarding the best true name nemesis deck in legacy). The matchups vs. the fair decks are already so great I'm not sure if it is necessary. Still, cranial plating in affinity is the best equipment in the game, so including the creature best at carrying equipment is an idea worth thinking about.

    I just have too much to say about the deck, since it has been all I've been thinking about since that semifinals match. I think if I had actually put in work on my sideboard before the event, I should have been able to easily take down the event. I'll be starting a tourny report tonight and will probably include a sort of mini primer just to really think through my thoughts on each card.

  9. #1409
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    First off, Ian, I want to explicitly say congratulations to your top 4 success. Every time I load up the link for SCG Top 16 decklists, I always have two fingers crossed, hoping my eyes would scroll down the page and see at least one list titled with any instance of the word “Affinity.” So it was definitely great to see that you not only made the top 16, but made the top 8 as well. I was rooting for you in the SCG coverage, and I wanted to see you win against Deathblade, but sadly it wasn’t meant to be. Those Meddling Mages were back-breaking. Anyway, I’m proud of your success in 3rd place and I hope you continue your hot streak in the Legacy portion of the next SCG Invi in Vegas. Good luck, and welcome to The Source. I’m glad you decided to join our ongoing discussion of Affinity, and I look forward to sharing ideas and thoughts with you, even if we may disagree on some.

    With that out of the way, I’ll try to respond to what I feel I should respond to. :

    First, for those of you that insist on cutting signal pest I really think you need to playtest with it more. You need all the cheap artifacts to make the power cards good (platings, Tezz, ravager, and etched champion to an extent) and pests make draws with too many of the cheap cards still winning hands. I had multiple turn three kills throughout the day, including one on a mulligan to 5, none of which would have happened without signal pest. In the semifinals, if I went first I win that game, and if signal pest was anything else it would be a mulligan.
    I’ve tested the 4 Tomb list with Pest before trying out Stoneforge Mystic, and my experiences have shown me how mediocre Signal Pest is against opponents who are prepared to deal with it. Signal Pest’s only two benefits are its cheap cost and its explosiveness, EDIT: and even if you do open with it and its unchecked, Pest's power is variable and inconsistent . The problem with Affinity is its tendency to run into bad mulligans with plenty of fast creatures and running out gas. Signal Pest isn’t guaranteed to fix these problems because if your opponent has an answer for Signal Pest, you will feel like you lost more than one card in exchange for that removal spell because you kept an otherwise bad hand just because of that Pest. If you are trying to come back into the game, say if you are recovering from an attrition war or if you need to block to your benefit, then Signal Pest doesn’t help you here because it has no inherent gain on its own since it has 0 power and it doesn’t have flying to actually block other flying creatures. Every other card in Affinity, like Ravager, and Etched Champion, and Tezzerets, are automatic must-haves in the deck because they pull so much indisputable weight in games. Vault Skirge is probably the only other card that can be compared with Signal Pest, and it’s still leagues better because of its lifelink and its actual flying ability which makes it able to block fliers, which Signal Pest can’t do. I’m glad that Signal Pest did some work for you at SCG Oak, but I really think you need to take your own advice and playtest with Signal Pest more to see why it’s the weakest card in the deck.

    The thoughtseizes in the list SCG has were definitely thoughtcasts. I think the most obvious mistake I made though was playing spell pierce over thoughtseize in the sideboard though. Pierce is better against miracles, but thoughtseize is pretty much better against everything else.
    Pierce is indeed clutch against Miracles, I can attest to that. I wouldn’t sweat myself over not running Thoughtseize, because running only a three-outer against something like Show and Tell where the rest of your SB is irrelevant won’t change the matchup significantly. I am running a seven-card discard package against decks like S&T (3 Tidehollow, 2 Thoughseize, 2 Therapy), and I feel that my number is enough disruption to not actually dilute the deck.

    I like the idea of some sort of search though, especially since I'm convinced Jitte should be somewhere in the deck. I just don't think you can cut one of your cheap evasive creatures, especially the only one that makes your multiple memnite-ornithopter draws keepable.
    If you keep a hand full of Kobolds + Pest, and your opponent has a creature removal for Pest, then you are left with a meager offense with 1s and 0s of power. If you keep a hand full of Kobolds and + Mystic, and your opponent directly removes Mystic, you are left with a meager offense and a Cranial Plating. Which would you prefer?

    Jitte is a pretty miserable MD slot, especially since you can't neutralize your opponent's anymore. Manriki-Gusari may be an option, especially with SFM. For now, I am keen to believe that Pithing Needle is the most effective solution against Jitte.

    I'm telling you all, Batterskull is very good in the Tomb version. When you stop looking at it strictly as a 4/4 vigiliance lifelinker, you will start to take into account that you're able to attach Cranial Plating to it for massive amounts of lifegain, and you can equip Etched Champion with it. Or you can even attack with the token, and tap it to Drum for mana. It has its own synergies with the deck outside of Stoneforge Mystic.

    Inkmoth could work, but you couldn't cut 4 land for them so you'd either play less than a playset or have to cut some creatures for them. It's also pretty mana intensive if you are putting platings on it, and with so many wastelands and one mana removal spells you can't afford to target it with ravager's modular unless it is a last resort.
    I highly advise against theorycrafting and strongly suggest you try out Inkmoth for yourself. The Wasteland argument you and Drew Levin bring up is as cliché and meaningless as the tired-old “it dies to Swords to Plowshares” argument. It costs only two mana to equip a resolved Plating onto an untapped Nexus, five if you haven’t cast Plating yet. Ravager + Inkmoth Nexus is not a last resort, it’s a gambit you can opt to take if the time required for an Infect kill is available to you given the board state. For context, I went for an multiple-turn Infect kill against Pox, even sacrificing a Pithing Needle naming Liliana, because I knew their only out was Wasteland or possibly Sinkhole, and my Pox opponent clearly didn’t have one, and I had another land in my hand saved after the Smallpox he cast next turn. I can’t explain to you how Inkmoth actually impacts a specific matchup, other than combo since it gives you an ace up your sleeve if you have the resources for an Infect kill, but I can tell you from experience that Inkmoth can pull outs wins from nowhere and it rewards intuiton combined with proficient skill using Ravager.
    Last edited by Shawon; 12-09-2013 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #1410

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Hey Ian, I would love to talk more about your build, I played 69~ of your 75 at GP DC and made day two, losing to storm, elves, sneak and show, shardless bug, and aggro loam w/ DD combo in it.

    the differences between ours were mainly in the SB and the 17th land of the deck (mine is glimmervoid) and I ran ensnaring bridge and whipflare in my sideboard, shaving down the RiP and Ethersworn down 1 a piece and no spell pierce at all.


    congrats on the finish :)

  11. #1411

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Some random observations,

    I really think you underestimate how good RIP is vs the field as opposed to how good RIP is vs Reanimator, the fact of the matter is Reanimator is probably a lost match up no matter what you do so you may as well play a back breaker vs Dredge and any other deck that's soft to graveyard hate like RUG.

    I don't think Signal Pest and Stoneforge Mystic are mutually exclusive at all and I don't know why everybody treats them as such, I'm highly skeptical of cards like Vault Skirge ever being consistent and Etched Champion is overrated IMO. I tend to always come back to the cards that let the deck scale as opposed to the ones that do cute shit like gain life.

    Cabal Therapy > Thoughtseize > Spell Pierce and Revoker > Canonist because card advantage and versatility are more important IMO. I really don't understand Canonist because it has like 0 applications outside of Storm, even something like Thalia would be really fucking irritating for Storm and a pretty good card vs Show&Tell.

    I still think Paradise Mantle makes the best 17th mana source, a lot of the times it's just a worse drum but I think the added utility it gives Stoneforge Mystic is worth it. I don't think you really need Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte in the MD, they make ok SB cards but really I just want Plating, Plating or more Plating unless I need to fix my mana.

    There are days I really want to bring back Disciple of the Vault and use other cool stuff like Thopter Faundry instead of the Planeswalker, curving out at two is really underrated and it just feels like he eats Spell Pierce and Daze all day at times. I probably wont ever do it just because he's that one card that laughs off Abrupt Decay, but damn is Daze really irritating.

    I know the deck kind of has a hard time vs Miracles, but I think with any aggro deck that you really have to know your place in the metagame and I liken Affinity to Elves in the sense they should both beat the same and lose to the same match ups as aggro-combo. But thankfully, I think Affinity just has a way better SB than Elves in order to be completely unfair to some decks by dropping bombs like Rest in Peace and Engineered Plague or throwing a lot of "not so bad" SB disruption in Cabal Therapy, Spell Pierce, Chalice of the Void or Revoker at Storm opponents and such.

    I really find Thoughtcast underwhelming when it can't slam a Frogmite or Enforcer onto the board anymore, god I wish Skull Clamp would get unbanned just to make aggro-control cry.

  12. #1412
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Perhaps you're right. I haven't tested Rest in Peace, and I have seen the Drew Levin video of his match against Dredge, so I have witnessed how backbreaking Rest in Peace is against Dredge. I imagine it would certainly be very annoying against RUG. But if you want to talk about Dredge, I just think the difference between Rest in Peace and any other graveyard hate is pretty trivial so long as you find your piece. I could be wrong. Dredge could bring in Ancient Grudge for your artifact gy hate, or you mulligan to find Rest in Peace but can't cast it. I think there's pros and cons to running either Rest in Peace against gy-combo decks.

    I treat Signal Pest and Stoneforge Mystic as mutually exclusive right now because as I said, every other card is needed in the current iteration of Affinity. I too sometimes feel that Etched Champion is overrated, but it is needed. Despite my reasons against Signal Pest, I do agree with the thought process that it being a cheap card brings some cohesion to enabling your manabase should you not draw Memnites/Thopters. That's why Vault Skirge is still in the deck. I acknowledge that Signal Pest does remove some of the early game consistency and explosiveness, but Stoneforge Mystic adds a lot of consistency in the late game, and the difference in internal synergy is trivially affected by the loss of Signal Pest, I find.

    I agree on your sentiments regarding Canonist. I am trying a 2-2 split of both Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy currently, and I like it very much because it's unilateral disruption that can hit both Omni-Tell and Sneak-Show without running selective cards like Karakas or Canonist. I run 3 Tidehollow Sculler in addition to the 4 discard, so I feel very good about my anti-(dumb)combo plan.

  13. #1413

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Edit: Just play four Therapy, you already know what he's playing game 2

    Personally, I just don't understand why cards like Vault Scourge or Etched Champion are needed at all, you keep swearing by them but honestly I have never got into situations where Lifelink would have mattered or where a Pro:Everything bear was what I needed more than ending the game with Disciple of the Vault immediately or Signal Pest carrying a Cranial Plating to victory just as easily.

    Now that everybody pretty much plays Ravager again, I don't know how you can't play Disciple as well. You don't need to "Moat" Goyf with Etched Champion when you can just combo off and win, and it keeps the curve low.

    I think something like,

    4 Darksteel Citadel
    4 Ancient Den
    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Vault of Whispers
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Springleaf Drums
    1 Paradise Mantle

    4 Memnite
    4 Ornithoper
    4 Signal Pest
    4 Disciple of the Vault
    4 Arcbound Ravager
    4 Cranial Plating
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Thoughtcast
    3 Tezzert Agent of Bolas

    lets you do the two things you want to do most, combo off in the opponent's face or beat him over the head with a Plating.

  14. #1414
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    The lifelink matters a ton, because if you enter a race, the life gain allows you to keep taking hits. Vault Skirge + Plating is a clutch out against Progenitus, for example.

    Etched Champion has strong synergy with both Cranial Plating and Ravager. Disciple of the Vault only has strong synergy with Ravager, and as a 1-drop Human, it doesn't help activate Mox Opal or Thoughtcast. It's only good when you have Ravager, that's why Disciple doesn't cut it anymore, and it won't ever unless another sac outlet as good as Ravager comes out (Atog isn't good), or Skullclamp is unbanned. EDIT: If it was an artifact creature for , it would be better than Vault Skirge (kinda of a stretch).

  15. #1415

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    The lifelink matters a ton, because if you enter a race, the life gain allows you to keep taking hits. Vault Skirge + Plating is a clutch out against Progenitus, for example.

    Etched Champion has strong synergy with both Cranial Plating and Ravager. Disciple of the Vault only has strong synergy with Ravager, and as a 1-drop Human, it doesn't help activate Mox Opal or Thoughtcast. It's only good when you have Ravager, that's why Disciple doesn't cut it anymore, and it won't ever unless another sac outlet as good as Ravager comes out (Atog isn't good), or Skullclamp is unbanned. EDIT: If it was an artifact creature for , it would be better than Vault Skirge (kinda of a stretch).
    What deck in this format races Affinity point for point on damage and how is Vault Scourge any less reliant on Cranial Plating than Disciple of the Vault is on Arcbound Ravager? Granted the deck can have 8 virtual copies of Cranial Plating, but it can also have 5+ copies of Arcbound Ravager with Thopter Foundry and Disciple of the Vault still has its uses whenever an artifact is destroyed by pinging the opponent. All I know is absolutely no one Force of Wills, Dazes or Lightning Bolts a Vault Scourge ever, but Disciple of the Vault draws counter magic and removal like a magnet.

    I don't buy the "it would be better if it were an artifact creature argument," that's as easily offset by deciding whether or not you want to play Ancient Tomb or Darksteel Citadel in your deck. The fact of the matter is the deck only plays 4 copies of its name sake mechanic anymore, and I really doubt it should be playing those at all because the days of generating board advantage after U: play free 4/4 and 2/2 creatures are long gone and card advantage in a deck that has 25 mana sources and 8 zero drop creatures isn't so hott.

    Ok, there is no such thing as a creature that doesn't have synergy with Cranial Plating, it's an equipment, but I'll give you that it's a perq the opponent can't remove Etched Champion in response to equip and he does have evasion. The problem tho' is that he just doesn't establish board presence by himself, and even with Ravager you still need 2 other artifacts on board to keep up protection from everything. Personally I just think you're better off going for another angle of attack than putting all of your faith into Cranial Plating and cards that are good with Cranial Plating and little else.

    No offense, but I think you're really caught up in some card choices that are just fundamentally weak without any other form of synergy, and while I'm not saying Disciple of the Vault doesn't qualify I'm much more certain I'd rather have Disciple of the Vault than Vault Scourge against any deck with blue in it for sure. I don't know how other people feel about cards like Vault Scourge, Etched Champion or Thoughtcast, but cards that fall out of the "scalable bomb or combo finish" description should really be questioned because every time I cast Thoughtcast and draw an Ornithoper and a Mox Opal I'm really asking myself why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium?

    Mayve I've just played too much of Classic Affinity, but given the format is much more inclined to dagage races and I still don't use Vault Scourge I'm pretty sure racing Progenitus (what deck even plays that?) is going to be a huge argument for a 1/1 flying dork that doesn't attribute to scalable damage output like Signal Pest or Disciple of the Vault (with combat trades or against removal and sweapers)

    Anyway play Dredge however you want to, I just don't get what you're playing against where taking 2 damage for a 1/1 flying life link is the difference between life and death, because it certainly isn't Goblins.

  16. #1416
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    What deck in this format races Affinity point for point on damage and how is Vault Scourge any less reliant on Cranial Plating than Disciple of the Vault is on Arcbound Ravager? Granted the deck can have 8 virtual copies of Cranial Plating, but it can also have 5+ copies of Arcbound Ravager with Thopter Foundry and Disciple of the Vault still has its uses whenever an artifact is destroyed by pinging the opponent. All I know is absolutely no one Force of Wills, Dazes or Lightning Bolts a Vault Scourge ever, but Disciple of the Vault draws counter magic and removal like a magnet.
    I'd rather have 8 platings than 4 Ravagers + 3-4 bad imitations (Thopter Foundry, Atog) of it.

    With the exception of Mantle, I'd had every other spell in my deck countered by Force before, so that remark is kinda moot. And you're telling me no opponent has ever tried to Bolt Skirge? What parallel universe are you living in?

    Ok, there is no such thing as a creature that doesn't have synergy with Cranial Plating, it's an equipment, but I'll give you that it's a perq the opponent can't remove Etched Champion in response to equip and he does have evasion. The problem tho' is that he just doesn't establish board presence by himself, and even with Ravager you still need 2 other artifacts on board to keep up protection from everything. Personally I just think you're better off going for another angle of attack than putting all of your faith into Cranial Plating and cards that are good with Cranial Plating and little else.
    Yes, that is why I also run 4 Ravager. I go for Ravager-assisted kills all the time, often kills that take two or three turns because I made the right judgment call about the game. Maintaining Metalcraft after going all-in with Ravager->Etched Champion is just a matter of counting. It's not that hard, but I have to be decisive in choosing which artifacts to sacrifice in each game. Your skepticism of Ravager assisting Champion into a reliable skill leads me to question your experience using Ravager to assist kills that weren't one-shot KOs. Have you ever put your opponent on a three-turn clock with Ravager pumping Etched Champion into a 7/7? It's not a Magical Christmasland dream, it's an actual gambit that I have often taken to close out games. I don't see why I should be interested in a Disciple kill when I've been fine with going all-in on Etched Champion or Inkmoth Nexus.

    No offense, but I think you're really caught up in some card choices that are just fundamentally weak without any other form of synergy, and while I'm not saying Disciple of the Vault doesn't qualify I'm much more certain I'd rather have Disciple of the Vault than Vault Scourge against any deck with blue in it for sure. I don't know how other people feel about cards like Vault Scourge, Etched Champion or Thoughtcast, but cards that fall out of the "scalable bomb or combo finish" description should really be questioned because every time I cast Thoughtcast and draw an Ornithoper and a Mox Opal I'm really asking myself why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium?
    I don't think I'm caught up with trying to run cards for the sake of internal synergy, because that's the whole point of Affinity! Every card needs to have synergy with the rest of the deck, otherwise you are diluting the strength of the deck, which is to abuse its internal synergy to assemble an aggressive board position. Disciple, especially in multiples, can be brutal with Ravager if your opponent is on the ropes, no one is disputing that. However, the fact remains that Disciple is very bad without Ravager. In fact, with Disciple and SFM in your deck, you have only 12 robots in your deck outside of Ravager, and that is way too low if you want to make use of Modular.

    Disciple of the Vault is even more fundamentally weak on its own than either Vault Skirge or Etched Champion, so what are you trying to say? Disciple costs 1 specific colored mana, Vault Skirge and Etched Champion are basically colorless. Disciple may have a combo finish, with Ravager exclusively, but it is no bomb except in very specific scenarios (like facing Emrakul).

    I think you're caught up with trying to make Affinity into an ineffective combo deck. It's best as an aggro deck. Disciple of the Vault only adds a situational combo finish.

    The answer to "Why didn't I just cast Master of Etherium," is "it's slow and unreliable."

    I'm curious: what matchups have you tested Disciple against? Without talking about Sneak-Show. If you can tell me what relevant match ups Disciple significantly improves, I will test out your list. I disapprove of theory crafting, and I admit I have never tested Disciple, so I am willing to test it in order to reach a more decisive and analytic stance on it. Although, I already have my doubts on using Disciple if my approach is to remove Vault Skirge. I don't see how doing that would improve my opening hands at all.
    Last edited by Shawon; 12-12-2013 at 07:13 AM.

  17. #1417

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post

    Cabal Therapy > Thoughtseize > Spell Pierce and Revoker > Canonist because card advantage and versatility are more important IMO. I really don't understand Canonist because it has like 0 applications outside of Storm, even something like Thalia would be really fucking irritating for Storm and a pretty good card vs Show&Tell.
    Canonist has applications against various other decks. For example omniscience, belcher, tin fins, spiral tide, dream halls, allspells, hive mind, elves, zombie bombardement, aluren, burn, enchantress,cephalid breakfast, hypergenesis and maybe even berserk stompy.
    Although i like thalia very much and i tried her in Affinity i think she doesnt fit in, because she makes your tezzeret impossible to cast sometimes and has dissynergy with springleaf drum and plating and after boarding with chalice of the void and Rest in peace, too. Canonist doesnt have that weakness and is an artifact additionally. But i think you are right when you critisize the missing sideboard options against show and tell (sneak attack version).

    Does anyone have an idea for that? My sideboard is currently as following

    4 chalice of the void
    4 Rest in peace
    4 ethersworn canonist
    3 Engineered Plague

    Mostly i am interested in your thoughts about the plagues. Does affinity need them in your eyes? Or should one play something like thoughtseize or cabal therapy instead? In that case i d say therapy would be the better option.
    Or would ethersworn canonist combined with spell pierce be the answer, so you can counter his show and tell but he canīt counter your spellpierce?

  18. #1418

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Disciple is pretty much back breaking vs any blue control(ish) deck, especially vs Miracles. I don't see how the deck is any less aggro by switching out a 1/1 dork for a 1/1 dork, you keep comparing certain cards as either or when I'm playing both which frankly confuses me a lot. Basically the only thing I'm really sold on is Thoughtcast is pretty underwhelming without Frogmite and Myr Enforcer and I'm kind of at a loss for what the best robot 13-16 is to replace it. You're build with Scourge and Inkmoth is just too centered on Plating, the deck gets wrecked by a Needle where having multiple angles of attack with Ravager/Disciple doesn't. If I cut Thoughtcast I may give Blinkmoth/Inkmoth another go in order to increase the evasive robot count because I don't need the land as a base artificat to cast Thoughtcast quickly anymore. I don't typically have a problem with the robot count for modular because the way I look at it is that Ravager is really there to either make himself big or offset an Abrupt Decay on him by dumping his tokens onto something otherwise worthless like a Memnite. Playing bots just for the sake of playing bots is something I try to avoid as much as I can if the bot isn't inherently aggressive.

    If affinity is about synergy then what synergy does a 1, 1/1 flying life link really have? It carries plating, which everything does, it gains life, when it already costed 2 life to begin with, and it's an artifact and that's about it. The card itself is just immensely weak, and I think you under rate just how good Disciple is even by itself because it has a way of attracting counters and removal much more than Scourge at the onset of the game and makes cards like sweepers potentially very dangerous for your opponent. If you haven't played with Disciple in awhile then I think you really need to because he generally finds about a Lightning Bolt worth of damage from his effect even without Ravager on board. There is just so much stuff like Wasteland, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Terminus, Lilliana of the Veil, Punishing Fires, Grim Lavamancer, Ancient Grudge, Combat Trades etc. where Disciple eaks out value as a dork. It's totally not as dependent as you think it is on Ravager, altho' it's pretty bonkers with Ravager regardless and people are pretty terrified to leave that thing on the board when Ravager is Pierce proof and threatening to just end the game on the spot if he comes down. That's why I say Scourge isnt anywhere near the lightning rod Disciple is, people will only Lightning Bolt Scourge in response to an equipment activation. There isn't that feeling of "oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck" at all with that card.

  19. #1419

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    If affinity is about synergy then what synergy does a 1, 1/1 flying life link really have? It carries plating, which everything does, it gains life, when it already costed 2 life to begin with, and it's an artifact and that's about it.
    Evasion?

    Yep, Ornithopter has evasion too, but if you manage an attack with Cranial-equipped Skirge it's almost GG vs decks like Canadian or Burn, or any deck designed to deal 20 damage (but not more than that) as fast as possible.
    It won't happen that often with an early Skirge 'cause it will be bolted down pretty fast, but any Skirge drawn in the mid game is a match winner unless they find a way to deal immediately with it.

    Also, a single attack with Skirge + Cranial (which can happen on 2nd turn) means problem for Storm too, since at that point they have to reach an higher Storm count to beat you.

    Evasion is great of course.
    And lifelink is not something to overlook.
    Cheap lifelink AND evasion seems like 4-of autoinclude to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Asmahasmalaria View Post
    But i think you are right when you critisize the missing sideboard options against show and tell (sneak attack version).

    Does anyone have an idea for that? My sideboard is currently as following

    4 chalice of the void
    4 Rest in peace
    4 ethersworn canonist
    3 Engineered Plague

    My sideboard right now is:
    - 2 Tormod's
    - 1 Revoker (I play 3 MD)
    - 4 Canonist
    - 4 Oblivion ring
    - 4 Whipflare
    ...and I'll probably go to 3 Tormod's cutting 1 Whipflare.
    O-rings comes in vs S&T.

    Chalice is missing from SB simply because I play the full set maindeck.
    Of course I don't play Pest for this reason, but I'm happy with that 'cause I never liked that card.

    I prefer Tormod's over RIP because:
    - white mana sometimes could be an issue (that's the same with Canonist too, but Canonist has no replacement nearly as strong)
    - costing is huge in Affinity 'cause it provides explosive starts

    Chalice maindeck has been very good for me: even in matchups where it's not strictly needed it can do some work: for example a Chalice @1 vs D&T blanks their StP, which can be game breaking sometimes (of course they have outs, but they are kinda slow).
    Playing them maindeck not only gives us some game-1 wins vs decks where we would be hopeless without them (Storm comes to mind), not only gives us free wins vs some other decks (RUG, Burn), not only negates any cantrip vs blue decks, but also frees 4 slots in the sideboard.

  20. #1420

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by anakyn View Post

    My sideboard right now is:
    - 2 Tormod's
    - 1 Revoker (I play 3 MD)
    - 4 Canonist
    - 4 Oblivion ring
    - 4 Whipflare
    Chalice is missing from SB simply because I play the full set maindeck.
    Of course I don't play Pest for this reason, but I'm happy with that 'cause I never liked that card.
    May i ask how many creatures you run and which? Personally i feel like less than 24 creatures is to less and there is not much space, when you need
    3 Tezzeret and a playset each of Thoughtcast, spingleaf drum, mox opal and platings. Which card do you cut for Revoker and why?

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