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Thread: [Deck] Affinity

  1. #1541
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Another reason why I love RiP. Shuts down that deck, too.


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  2. #1542

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconicsteel View Post
    (Reanimator) Another reason why I love RiP.
    I prefer Grafdiggers in Affinity.
    Reason being, we don't need coloured mana > postboard you mull for RiP vs. Dredge/Reanimator and if you don't get a white source, what do you do?
    It comes down on T1 when it matters. It's fodder for Tezz/Arc'y if you get multiple's.
    And lastly, it's relevant against more than just graveyard decks, it's also useful against GSZ-types aswell.
    .... Sure, Grafdiggers can be bounced, but you can also pop a mix of gravehate in the yard if it worries you, or run dispatch.


    Just a question here guys and gals;
    Why do people run Arcbound Ravager in their list, without the outlet of Disciple of the Vault?
    .. I just think it's terrible to include one without the other. Am I wrong here?


    I'm thinking of running Affinity next legacy night, given my pet deck dredge is facing some bloody tough gravehate lately.
    I'd like some some advice;
    On the sideboard especially please, bearing in mind D&T & Blue in general, is pretty big where I play right now.
    :note: One of my SFM went walkabout last time I took Affinity out, so I only have 3.
    Cabal Therapy is one of my favourite cards ever. I'm aware of the anti-synergy with Cage but it rarely matters as Cage just ruins graveyard/GSZ decks etc., and both being 1-cmc gives me flexibility to decide which to use on T1.
    The only reason I have Pest in the list is Therapy, otherwise I'd probably swap them for Master... still might unless you guys know of a better option?
    Therapy can be back-breaking with Tallmen > the ability to rip out multiples or bait out counter is just so useful > a really good therapy+flashback can be like gutting them right there on the table before we swing for big hits.

    I'd like to fit in 2 or so Phyrexian Revoker, maybe even in the main, but I'm not sure what to cut > How useful are they, really?

    PUNY ROBOTS
    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Ancient Den
    4 Vault of Whispers
    3 Darksteel Citadel
    1 Academy Ruins
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Springleaf Drum

    4 Ornithopter
    4 Memnite
    4 Vault Skirge
    2 Signal Pest
    4 Etched Champion
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    4 Thoughtcast
    4 Dispatch

    4 Cranial Plating
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    SIDEBOARD:
    4 Grafdigger's Cage
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Batterskull
    1 Manriki-Gusari
    1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas


    Cheers.

  3. #1543
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    So, are you saying that without Disciple, it's terrible to include Ravager in the deck? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? Ravager is hands down the best creature in Affinity, because of its inherent synergy and its sheer power to win games on its own. Disciple is several steps down the hierarchy, because it's only good when you have one card... which is Ravager.

    One of the reasons why I've been going back to using Masters is D&T, because it gives you at least one creature that doesn't care if your opponent gets two Jitte counters. Also, Revoker is the card Affinity players want to see least in games against D&T, and it can put a damper on your plan to go all-in on Plating + Champ.

  4. #1544

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    So, are you saying that without Disciple, it's terrible to include Ravager in the deck? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? Ravager is hands down the best creature in Affinity, because of its inherent synergy and its sheer power to win games on its own. Disciple is several steps down the hierarchy, because it's only good when you have one card... which is Ravager..
    Maybe *terrible* is too strong a word.
    I would argue it's certainly not getting the most from the card.

    Look at what it does;
    You can instantly kill any of your artifacts to pump up your Ravager for combat tricks, or to try and save it from red removal, which you can potentially be baited into doing. Or you can sac it for it's counters to move somewhere else, once again during combat or in response to removal. Sure there may be more ways to use it, but these are the ones I think are most relevant.
    Beyond that it's just a beater with no evasion, that requires we go backwards on the boardstate to make it worth anything. This last part is the important bit.

    To me, the whole point of Disciple, is having an alternate win-con in the deck.
    Say an opponent has Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith etc. or is just in a better position than you are.
    When you're in a losing position, ravager without Disciple often doesn't help you turn it around, and does jack-shit when an opponent can stop you landing combat damage.
    Having Disciple in there aswell, means we can just sac everything to somehow snatch victory in these situations. > it also gives us a way to drop an opponents life points after a combat phase to possibly snatch victory, instead of just waiting for the next turn, allowing us to play more aggressively.

    Stoneforge has taken this slot in the current builds with Ravager to be fair, but still > Ravager doesn't seem that great to me without it.


    Anyway;
    Considering D&T matchups, you say you're getting Master back in. I like this. Just a question I think needs serious thought > have you guys considered True-Name Nemesis?
    I would've thought having 8 Champions would be pretty useful with Stoneforge Mystic fetching Plating.

  5. #1545
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Maybe *terrible* is too strong a word.


    To me, the whole point of Disciple, is having an alternate win-con in the deck.
    Say an opponent has Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith etc. or is just in a better position than you are.
    When you're in a losing position, ravager without Disciple often doesn't help you turn it around, and does jack-shit when an opponent can stop you landing combat damage.
    Having Disciple in there aswell, means we can just sac everything to somehow snatch victory in these situations. > it also gives us a way to drop an opponents life points after a combat phase to possibly snatch victory, instead of just waiting for the next turn, allowing us to play more aggressively.

    Stoneforge has taken this slot in the current builds with Ravager to be fair, but still > Ravager doesn't seem that great to me without it.


    Anyway;
    Considering D&T matchups, you say you're getting Master back in. I like this. Just a question I think needs serious thought > have you guys considered True-Name Nemesis?
    I would've thought having 8 Champions would be pretty useful with Stoneforge Mystic fetching Plating.
    the thing about ravager + disciple as an altenate wincondition may be true, but the way you describe it it is already covered by a single card, and not a 2-card-semi-combo, and this in a way that is way more effective than ravager + disciple

    this card is called tezzeret, agent of bolas

    disciple has no more place in this deck as his role is fullfilled by a more potent card now, and this without sacrificing your whole boardposition a la "all-in"

    arcbound is still one of the best if not the best creature in the deck, and works extremely well together with etched champion, even without a plating on board

    The idea of TNN is a nice one though, but i would never run a full playset of it, because its manacost is very restrictive, sometimes it is even hard to cast a master of etherium, which costs only one blue mana, but TNN costs 2 blue mana
    i would test TNN as a 2-off, and adjust the manabase accordingly for more blue sources or even adding rainbow lands (which i am not that much a fan of, because it slows down the deck a bit)

    The downside of TNN is that it works only well with a plating, not with a ravager on board as well, and is killed by the same hate a lot of our other creatures die, namely golgari charm and zealous persecution

  6. #1546

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by AggroSteve View Post
    the thing about ravager + disciple as an altenate wincondition may be true, but the way you describe it it is already covered by a single card, and not a 2-card-semi-combo, and this in a way that is way more effective than ravager + disciple
    this card is called tezzeret, agent of bolas
    disciple has no more place in this deck as his role is fullfilled by a more potent card now, and this without sacrificing your whole boardposition a la "all-in"

    The idea of TNN is a nice one though, but i would never run a full playset of it, because its manacost is very restrictive.
    The downside of TNN is that it works only well with a plating, not with a ravager on board as well, and is killed by the same hate a lot of our other creatures die, namely golgari charm and zealous persecution
    A couple of things I agree with, a few I don't. Just so you get me, I'm only suggesting you would sac everything to Ravager/Disciple once it's actually gonna win you the game.
    Tezz is a good alternate win-con, and it's a great card. But how often does anyone actually get to perform this little alternate win-con? Yeah, exactly...
    I've only ever got it to work in a win-more context, when I had my opponent on the back foot and they were unable to stop me. If anyone here routinely wins this way when you're in a losing position, feel free to argue with me, as when I'm losing I feel the default play with Tezz is the -1 on a Darksteel Citadel/useless artefact.

    The reason Disciple is useful here, is that if your opponent lands a game-ending beater like Emrakul, on T3 via Show/Sneak etc., you now have a way to inflict damage via attacking and instantly equipping Plating to your unblocked attacker, then sac your entire board to ravager and disciple. You may not have your opponent within reach, but sometimes you will > but at least you have a chance > Tezz isn't likely to change the outcome here at all, even if you have been able to play it.
    And Disciple works when an opponent drops artifacts too, say your opponent is playing Storm > I've used the Disciple on T1, Ravager on T2 in the past and simply sacked when his fetches, Ad Nauseum's, Probe's, Petals etc. all got him within reach. Nothing quite like killing storm on their business turn at instant speed without needing counter. Something that Tezz is way too slow to do.

    But;
    Tezz + Disciple seems a little stronger.
    Lets say you have 2 or 3 Tezz in the list and a similar number of Disciple. An average T1 should have you with 4 to 5 perms on the board, and really good one with 6 or 7. In the past I've had Tezz on the board by T2 on occasion.
    Anyway, if we have a perfect storm of a Tezz ready for his -4, with Disciple & Ravager on the board aswell, you should be able to hit your opponent for upwards of 7 life with Tezz, and then Ravager/Disciple for a similar number all without even attacking. You see why I'm talking up Disciple?
    Sure, Disciple has con's too > these days I don't think it's mainboard material, but from the side maybe?


    I stopped playing with Ravager's a while ago and sold them > I found them to be removal bait and rarely got them to work on a common basis. Maybe it's just where I play?
    In regards to TNN, I agree with you.
    Tested the bugger last night for a while before I left > it's a two-of at most, but I might try one for starters.
    I'm not happy with the manabase either. I'm gonna try a Glimmervoid or two, probablt a Mantle and see how I go.

    Another idea I'm working with, is going for a more fearless approach postboard against the deck where counter doesn't matter so much.
    Thopter Foundry & Sword of the Meek combo. I'm not sure it's gonna be viable, but I thought I'd give it a go, given we're running SFM & Tezz to potentially find them and it's not gonna be expected either, so cards like Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy etc. will no doubt whiff trying to prevent it.
    Anyone ever tried this?

  7. #1547
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    now i get what you are pointing at.

    sadly every occasion you described is an extremely rare situation. Of course rare situations happen, but the overall usefullness of disciple is not as good as the usefullness of other cards.

    you might be right on the point that disciple is "faster" than tezzeret, yet for the kill you need twice the amount of permanents/artifacts than with tezzeret practically going all in even before you might be able to "go off" or be even slower than with tezzeret because you lack the number of artifacts and still have to attack and then sac to kill the opponent.

    on the thing of tezzeret + disciple + ravager
    test it! it sounds intresting, yet in my opinion it is a bit to much.
    i consider tezzeret, also disciple as a "Plan B" winroute in general (in some matchups this is the more effective one, like against miracles, where disciple + ravager would still suck but tezzeret wins alone).
    for disciple and tezzeret not being part of the regular play of an affinity deck (speaking of "Plan A" the beatdown-aggro plan / "kill as fast as possible with attacking-plan") i would not want to dedicate to many Maindeck slots to a Plan B that would dilute the one and only real strength of this deck.

    Still this is just my opinion, forged from my expierience with the deck, that reaches back to Mirrodin times (when the deck was first designed)
    everyone obviously wants to give his pet-deck for instance his own spin and personalization, which is good, specially for this deck as it makes improvements and adjustments to the meta possible

    so, once you tried your configuration of Tezzeret + disciple i am very curious to hear about it (just in my opinion it won't be very strong, but please prove me wrong), and if possible differentiate between matchups

    EDIT: forgot about thopter foundry + sword of the meek

    has been tried out a long time ago, as additional sac outlet, like ravager, i think when tezzeret was not yet printed. the combo was very slow, but was never used as 4-off or the deck was never build around the combo.
    what i want to say is that this combo might give you an edge in controll matchups like miracles or whatever, but otherwise is horrible in a fast aggro deck (In My Opinion)

  8. #1548
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Figured I would post a deck that showed up on the dailies. Haven't seen one on there in a while, so I thought I would post it over here...

    MGatica (3-1)
    Legacy Daily #6975351 on 04/15/2014

    4 Ancient Den
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Glimmervoid
    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Vault of Whispers

    4 Arcbound Ravager
    4 Etched Champion
    4 Memnite
    4 Ornithopter
    4 Signal Pest
    4 Vault Skirge

    4 Cranial Plating
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Springleaf Drum
    3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    4 Thoughtcast

    Sideboard
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Rest in Peace


    Pretty standard based on recent conversations.
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  9. #1549
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    So it's basically Drew Levin's list with a one-card difference. What was the point of posting this?

    I don't know why people keep referencing Drew Levin's Affinity list as some gold standard, when it's actually pretty suboptimal and outdated.

    Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.
    Last edited by Shawon; 04-20-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #1550

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.
    Dispatch is great. I can't see a reason not to include some in the main. Simply paving a way to get hits through is reason enough.

    Chalice sucks against most decks to be fair, but why is it such a big deal @1?
    Besides sideboard options, the only maindeck stuff @1, is Springleaf Drum & Dispatch. If my opponent played Chalice @1 I'd giggle, cos they could do so much more damage @0 for T1 on the play, whilst we're on the draw.

    Considering the deck above;
    Signal Pest only makes sense to me if you're using it as a sac target with Cabal Therapy. Otherwise it's rubbish.

  11. #1551
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Dispatch is great. I can't see a reason not to include some in the main. Simply paving a way to get hits through is reason enough.
    Moreover, Dispatch's an answer against Marit Lage. It's also great at "dispatching" Veteran Explorer & Wurmcoil Engine without any blowback.

    Chalice sucks against most decks to be fair, but why is it such a big deal @1?
    Besides sideboard options, the only maindeck stuff @1, is Springleaf Drum & Dispatch. If my opponent played Chalice @1 I'd giggle, cos they could do so much more damage @0 for T1 on the play, whilst we're on the draw.
    Still, if the MUD player knows that your answers to their big creatures is a 1cc removal, using Chalice to shut off what's probably your only out is very significant.

    Considering the deck above;
    Signal Pest only makes sense to me if you're using it as a sac target with Cabal Therapy. Otherwise it's rubbish.
    I flip-flop between two different UWB Affinity lists, one containing in a 4 land slot Inkmoth Nexus and the other containing Darksteel Citadel instead. In the Nexus version, Signal Pest is imperative to have because quite often if you try to kill with Infect on turn 3, Signal Pest often helps you kill for the exact damage.

  12. #1552

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Hi guys. Been playing Affinity for a few months, so I thought I'd register and take part in the discussion. I play a lot of legacy, and go to small and big local legacy events from time to time, and occasionally larger scale ones. I'm looking forward to discussing the deck.

  13. #1553
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
    Hi guys. Been playing Affinity for a few months, so I thought I'd register and take part in the discussion. I play a lot of legacy, and go to small and big local legacy events from time to time, and occasionally larger scale ones. I'm looking forward to discussing the deck.
    Welcome. Please make sure to visit the site rules as a guide.

  14. #1554

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    On the matter of sideboarding v Sneak and Show, what do you guys bring in? I've been bringing in 3 Pierce, and taking out Tezz. I've heard arguments for Chalice, which I disagree with, as I don't believe it doesn't do enough. Shutting off their cantrips is nice, but they can easily Snt/Sneak in a fatty and win. Thoughts?

  15. #1555
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    It would help if you can give us your list first.
    But yes. I would bring in the Chalices.
    Currently playing:

    Maverick

  16. #1556

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Climax View Post
    It would help if you can give us your list first.
    But yes. I would bring in the Chalices.
    I'm messing around with Anderson's list at the moment. I'm sure you're all familiar with it, but here it is for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=61227

  17. #1557

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
    On the matter of sideboarding v Sneak and Show, what do you guys bring in?
    I've been thinking my side a lot. We have a deck that routinely gets two mana on turn 1.

    What about Leonin Arbiter?
    For this exact matchup, and pretty much any mana-greedy deck that runs heavy fetches, or a suite of tutors, that is just way too quick for us to bonk on the head.
    If you can land it on T1 and all they have in hand is fetches and no free counter, you've effectively locked them out of playing magic until they find a way to remove it or get two lands on board.
    Even with two lands, getting to more than that will be slower.
    It's a creature, so we can use it to bonk with too.

    Of course, Mindlock Orb can just lock a game up for some opposition, but it's just too slow to help us.

  18. #1558

    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Hi guys. Been testing some games against various decks, and did pretty well. The deck can be very resilient and good. Anyways, developing a new list:

    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Vault of Whispers
    2 Ancient Den
    2 Glimmervoid
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Academy Ruins

    4 Mox Opal
    3 Springleaf Drum
    4 Cranial Plating
    4 Chalice of the Void

    4 Arcbound Ravager
    4 Vault Skirge
    4 Etched Champion
    4 Ornithopter
    3 Master of Etherium
    2 Ethersworn Canonist

    3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    4 Thoughtcast

    SB:
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Duress
    3 Spell Pierce
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Mindbreak Trap

    This deck is built to perform effectively against my meta. Storm, Delver, Stoneblade, and other decks are part of it. Chalice and Canonist main do well against Storm and Delver/Blade, while Master is a threat good against Blade decks and DNT, where it is big enough to block/kill their threats and dodge Jitte. Sideboard covers other decks and helps improve matchups. Thoughts?
    Legacy decks-
    MUD

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    "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."

  19. #1559
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawon View Post
    So it's basically Drew Levin's list with a one-card difference. What was the point of posting this?

    I don't know why people keep referencing Drew Levin's Affinity list as some gold standard, when it's actually pretty suboptimal and outdated.

    Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.
    I brought it up because that variation of the deck is still getting exposure, which sort of surprised me. Whether or not it's optimal is a different issue.
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  20. #1560
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    Re: [Deck] Affinity

    ^ Fair enough.

    I've been tweaking both my Affinity lists (one using Inkmoth Nexus in a 4 land slot, the other Darksteel Citadel; I also have another list with 4 Ancient Tomb) as of late. My Darksteel list is still being revamped, but after making a recent change to up both Dispatch and Master of Etherium to 4-ofs, I feel that my MD for the Inkmoth variant is almost perfect. The only three slots that I feel can be changed are the 3 Steel Overseers, but I think Overseer is pretty awesome with Inkmoths and Signal Pest in the deck.

    Mana
    12 Artifact Lands
    4 Opal
    4 Drum
    4 Inkmoth
    1 Glimmervoid

    Critters
    8 0's
    4 Pest
    4 Skirge
    4 Ravager
    4 Master
    3 Overseer

    Everything Else
    4 Plating
    4 Dispatch

    SB (Incomplete)
    4 Tezz
    4 Revoker
    2 Canonist
    2 Cage
    1 Karakas

    Here are some main points about my list that I want to bring home:

    1. Zero Thoughtcast - Until recently, I never understood why people ever wanted to cut Thoughtcast from the deck. It's a spell that draws 2 cards for one mana. Why would anyone playing Affinity NOT run the card? Well, after gaining some brief perspective from playing Modern and applying it to my Legacy experience, I can tell you why, with good reason! For one, combo is fast, and you don't have time to cast Thoughtcast against fast combo decks like Storm or Reanimator, or even Sneak-Show. Another reason, in the grand scheme of your matchups, drawing two cards for one mana may be what you always want, but it's not what you need. I need 4 Dispatch and 4 Master of Etherium more than I need 3 of each and 3 Thoughtcast. The goal of Affinity, at least with my version, is to quickly set up a threatening board position. While Thoughtcast aids this purpose, having more redundancy of threats actually completes this purpose. Despite Thoughtcast being very cheap, casting it on turns 1-2 is less appealing than landing a threat that pressures the opponent to react.

    2. Inkmoth Nexus is better than either Darksteel Citadel or Ancient Tomb - I've expressed my love for Inkmoth Nexus before. Honestly, you need a strong excuse not to run a land that can directly win you the game, even faster than its predecessors Blinkmoth Nexus or Mishra's Factory. Yes, Wasteland can kill Inkmoth, and Rishadan Port can prevent you from attacking with it, but the rewards greatly outweigh the risks. With Arcbound Ravager, Signal Pest, and Steel Overseer in the deck, the deck can consistently get Inkmoth large enough to kill with Infect.

    3. 4 Dispatch - The change to running Dispatch instead of Galvanic Blast was losing to Reanimator due to not drawing my gy hate fast enough or losing to the deck's alternate enable Show and Tell. I wanted Dispatch because I thought that having access to Dispatch MD gave me a higher change of winning game 1, not enough to make game 1 favorable, but it at least made it easier not to just depend on winning two straight post-board games every time I get paired against Reanimator. Another matchup that warranted the change to Dispatch was Death & Taxes, because I need ways to get rid of Phyrexian Revoker, which is hands down the most annoying card Death & Taxes runs against us, and they run 4. In general, having spot removal helps this deck a lot, because in Legacy the versatility of being able to clear the board for attacks or simply stopping a creature from comboing out (e.g. Painter's Servant) is something I feel Affinity needs.

    4. 4 Master of Etherium, 0 Etched Champion - The choice of Master of Etherium over Etched Champion is a concession to making the deck's offensive raw power explode. Going for Etched Champion + Plating (or even Ravager + Champ) is too slow nowadays.

    Looking forward, the three MD slots that could be played with are the three Overseers. Perhaps I could fit in Stoneforge Mystic again, with some mix between them and Etched Champions. But like I said, Steel Overseer is nuts with Arcbound Ravager, since it not only pumps Ravager, but it gives Ravager more +1 counters to distribute off its Modular trigger should it die, which is amazing if you also have Inkmoth Nexus. Adding a counter to both Inkmoth Nexus and Arcbound Ravager alone, can potentially add at least 3 counters to Inkmoth Nexus if you activate Modular targeting Nexus.

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