[Report] Top8 at The WinterMercadiade 2009

[klaus]

For anyone interested in a "Speedstill" performance (neither featuring Wrath, nor Deed, nor Humility...)
CLICK ME!

[Zach Tartell]

Your report in German was far more enlightening than the one in English, even as poor as my command of the language is.

Also, don't feel bad about only having Hydroblasts - they're called Hydroknall auf Deutsch.

[klaus]

Your report in German was far more enlightening than the one in English, even as poor as my command of the language is.

Also, don't feel bad about only having Hydroblasts - they're called Hydroknall auf Deutsch.

Me Englisch reelly that bäd? Either way, I blame it on the editors!

[Bardo]

Me Englisch reelly that bäd? Either way, I blame it on the editors!

I thought the English was fine. Excellent report and well done. The list is cool, certainly a much different take than the slow/brooding LS lists that the Germans typically play.

One thing that you or anyone else is free to answer for me: WTF is up with Elspeth? I admit that I've never played her, but her first +1 ability seems about as good as Kjeldoran Outpost; do you frequently user her second +1 ability on Factories? How often do you trigger her -8?

I certainly appreciate seeing new technology, but Elspeth seems like a fine Type 2 card; I haven't quite understood her appeal in Legacy. Seems slow for a lot of meh. Any insight into what she's doing there, what role she fills, what weakness she solves, etc. would be appreciated.

Again, good report.

[rockout]

One thing that you or anyone else is free to answer for me: WTF is up with Elspeth? I admit that I've never played her, but her first +1 ability seems about as good as Kjeldoran Outpost; do you frequently user her second +1 ability on Factories? How often do you trigger her -8?

I certainly appreciate seeing new technology, but Elspeth seems like a fine Type 2 card; I haven't quite understood her appeal in Legacy. Seems slow for a lot of meh. Any insight into what she's doing there, what role she fills, what weakness she solves, etc. would be appreciated.

Again, good report.

I normally drop Elspeth. Make a 1/1. Start swinging for 4 a turn. -8: Win target game that was probably already in the bag at that point. Not too many decks run cheap flyers to block so you get in there for 4 a turn with all your mana untapped to counter and play removal. It's a way to start winning the game on turn 4 instead of winning many turns later say 7-8-9 with a decree for 4-5-6. Everyone but Geoff is running Elspeth.

Edit: She's basically removal proof as well. She can get vindicated, O-ringed and EE'ed @ 4 and that's about it.

[Skeggi]

Edit: She's basically removal proof as well. She can get vindicated, O-ringed and EE'ed @ 4 and that's about it.

Well, burn and creature damage also kind of kills her .

[Zach Tartell]

Me Englisch reelly that bäd? Either way, I blame it on the editors!

Wasn't your English being bad so much as your German being way more detailed.

[rockout]

Well, burn and creature damage also kind of kills her .

True. I'll allow 2 burn spells to hit her instead of my face. Anything that doesn't have evasion gets chumped by tokens until the ultimate makes them indestructible.

[klaus]

@ Bardo:

I see where you're coming from and I used to doubt her, too, that is before I started testing her.
As Rockout pointed out, for 90% of the common decks she's a wincon that is really hard to get rid of, which makes her the ultimate control MU breaker. (yeah, 5/5 Factories is a more than common sight - feels sweet to trade a land for a Stalker ;)
With Speedstills removal suite, she WILL buy you enough time to find the next spot removal, usually and if she didn't, she will have saved you more life than Ajani, probably.
Different scenario (simplified): Compare her to a medium-sized Decree (4-5 tokens) that you cycle facing a 4/5 Goyf and an Isamaru. The decree tokens may chump block Goyf for 4-5 turns, virtually saving you 16-20 life, while Isamaru eats 8-10 life in the meantime. You might get lucky and draw an STP, BUT that doesn't make you the beat down, yet.
Let's say you drop an Elspeth facing those same guys. First of, you might have dropped her 3-4 turns earlier and still get the profit but let's pretend you didn't.
So you get to chump block Goyf for as long as you can keep her alive, let's see:
1.) 4, token->5
2.) Isamaru -> 3
3.) 3, token -> 4
4.) Isamaru -> 2
5.) 2, token-> 3
6.) Isamaru-> 1
7.) 1, token -> 2
8.) Isamaru -> %
4 turns = 16 life PLUS 8 life (Isamaru).
Now, let's say you drew 1 of my 12-15 outs against Goyf (again: 4 STP, 3 Smother, 3 Edict (sort of), 2 EE, 3 Vindicate). This should make you the beatdown, creating a token, not blocking, having Else eat 2 from Isamaru, beat down for 1/turn, plus having more time to find outs to Isamaru/Goyf.
I'm aware this is overly simplified logic but it is coherent to my experiences with her. And, well, this is just one case where she's good. There's more.
That being said, she's superb in a very limited amount of legacy archetypes.

[Enigma]

Hey Klaus!

How do you spend your Jace loyalty counters? -1,-1,-1 to make a draw 3 cards card or you give opponent card also with the +2 ability? I guess it depends if you have the control of the game, what deck you are facing, etc.

I feel kind of a noob with it in play without knowing what's the best play to abuse it.

PM

[Team-Hero]

Hey Klaus!

How do you spend your Jace loyalty counters? -1,-1,-1 to make a draw 3 cards card or you give opponent card also with the +2 ability? I guess it depends if you have the control of the game, what deck you are facing, etc.

I feel kind of a noob with it in play without knowing what's the best play to abuse it.

PM

Can you also PM me on your use of Jace please. I cut him from my deck because I felt he wasn't good enough. But now, I am interested in him again since you stated that he is good. Thank you.

[rockout]

the best way to play jace is first evaluate your board position. If your opponent has few cards in hand don't let them draw cards with jace's +2 ability and bury them in ca. If you are losing just keep using the -1 ability until you draw something to put youover the top or jace has one counter on it then use the +2 and go back to the -1 ability. In both situations you want to play jace the same way. The ultimate abilityis only relevent in games that you know have a good chance if going to decking for instance the mirror.

[Team-Hero]

the best way to play jace is first evaluate your board position. If your opponent has few cards in hand don't let them draw cards with jace's +2 ability and bury them in ca. If you are losing just keep using the -1 ability until you draw something to put youover the top or jace has one counter on it then use the +2 and go back to the -1 ability. In both situations you want to play jace the same way. The ultimate abilityis only relevent in games that you know have a good chance if going to decking for instance the mirror.

So just keep doing the -1 (unless his loyalty would turn to 0, then I do the +2). Ok, understood.

How useful is he in general?
Should I run 1 or 2 copies of him in a control deck?

I understand that he gives you card advantage, but how superior (or inferior) is it vs a card like Fact or Fiction?

I guess I have a lot of questions about him because I've never seen Jace been used (at all), and this is all just theory to me. I appologize for the fact that I have not tested Jace. (I don't have anyone to test with).

[Viscosity]

GJ Klaus. Nice report and list.

I'd like to add comments regarding Elspeth and her usefulness. I'm like a broken record stuck on "elspeth" on the LS forum.

Scenario #1 (vs aggro)
Klaus has already done a good job at explaining how she simply controls the board. Add some removal or a decree to the mix and she wins. -8 ultimate plus some 1/1 soldiers is really hard for aggro to deal with.

Scenario #2 (vs control)
I find that if Elspeth resolves vs control, you simply win. a 4/4 or 5/5 flier that cannot be removed is a complete bitch for them. Plus the -8 often hits.

Scenario #3 (vs Burn):
If they elect to use two burn spells vs Elspeth, then she just became the most relevant card in the deck against Burn (a weak match up for LS). yay life gain! Generally, burn will ignore the Elspeth. I have a hard time vs straight-up burn.deck. So I often pump a mishra, swing for 5 (using elspeth), then swords the mishra for 5 life gain.

Scenario #4 (vs Combo):
Elspeth is an epic FAILURE

A couple more comments from actual tournaments I've played and won or almost won:

1) Elspeth wins the mirror match
2) Elspeth wins vs counterbalance
3) Elspeth wins vs thresh
4) Elspeth assists in the win vs aggro
5) Elspeth wins vs white stax

I did not like the card when I read it. It took a lot of playing against Elspeth and then adopting her into my deck to realize that she is pretty much unfair in many match-ups. Keep in mind she is the only Plainswalker that protects itself with critters while adding loyalty. This is VERY significant. She is hard to remove mostly because of the 4 casting cost, 4 starting loyalty, and 1/1 soldier chumps. Hardest walker to remove of all. After vindicate or O-Ring, flying creatures are her biggest weakness.

It is very interesting to drop an Elspeth, because the game immediately becomes a game AROUND her. Usually the opponent can do nothing but focus on how the heck they are going to win with Elspeth in play. This is the truest sign of an amazing card. Overpowered even.

[KillemallCFH]

So just keep doing the -1 (unless his loyalty would turn to 0, then I do the +2). Ok, understood.

How useful is he in general?
Should I run 1 or 2 copies of him in a control deck?

I understand that he gives you card advantage, but how superior (or inferior) is it vs a card like Fact or Fiction?

I guess I have a lot of questions about him because I've never seen Jace been used (at all), and this is all just theory to me. I appologize for the fact that I have not tested Jace. (I don't have anyone to test with).

I know I'm kinda stating the obvious here, but FoF is better when you need cards now, and Jace is better when you want a constant stream of CA. Jace is amazing when you have ways to protect him (as in Landstill), but not quite as good when you don't have as many ways of protecting him (as in MUC). He is pretty bad in the aggro matchup, good vs aggro-control, pretty bad vs combo, and amazing against control (It is pretty hard to lose the control mirror if you get a Jace to stick).

Generally, Jace will just go -1, -1, +2, etc.

My current 4c Landstill lists runs 3. I've also used him as a 2-of and a 4-of in various decks.

I'd generally opt to run 3-4. Unlike other Planeswalkers, Jace isn't dead, and is often welcome, in multiples. Activate a Jace with one counter, draw a card, that Jace dies, play another Jace, draw another car.

[Team-Hero]

I know I'm kinda stating the obvious here, but FoF is better when you need cards now, and Jace is better when you want a constant stream of CA. Jace is amazing when you have ways to protect him (as in Landstill), but not quite as good when you don't have as many ways of protecting him (as in MUC). He is pretty bad in the aggro matchup, good vs aggro-control, pretty bad vs combo, and amazing against control (It is pretty hard to lose the control mirror if you get a Jace to stick).

Generally, Jace will just go -1, -1, +2, etc.

My current 4c Landstill lists runs 3. I've also used him as a 2-of and a 4-of in various decks.

I'd generally opt to run 3-4. Unlike other Planeswalkers, Jace isn't dead, and is often welcome, in multiples. Activate a Jace with one counter, draw a card, that Jace dies, play another Jace, draw another car.

May I PM you to discuss deck motifications and if Jace is the right fit?

[klaus]

This might not be the proper spot to discuss single choices in depth but who cares.
First off, thanks for backing me up Viscosity - I've already given up on convincing people over at the UW(x)LS thread to at least test Else. Good to know it's not all fools out there.
On Jace:
It is hard to generalize how to use him since there are more than 3 different board positions. Yesterday I even started out with +2->5 (while being at 8ish life), facing a Skyshroud Elite or so and it proved to be the right call, since he found me the removal with the 2nd extra draw, while not dying to the first swing and drew me tons of cards later on ftw.
But yeah going -1,-1,+2 is the common thing.
It's also interesting to consider when to play him and when to keep him back. There are several factors to be accounted for:
- can I protect him Counterspellwise (against U.dec)?
- if not do I still play him, even though waiting for counter backup might be the right call, since he's game breaking?
- can I protect him combat dmg-wise?
- if not, do I just cycle him and "gain" 2-4 life?
- do I board him out against burn/sligh?
- are there any archetypes other than combo in which he gets moved out G2/3?
These are just a few relevant aspects that we have to figure out over and over again, by accounting for the respective board position, number of cards in hand (us/opp.), life count etc..
-
Jace VS FoF:
In SpeedStill I can confidently state that Jace is strictly better. As I mentioned before this is due to the removal suite and the lower mana curve, which actually allows you to cast multiple spells in the same turn even in the late early game/ early midgame.
As for regular WishStill lists, FoF might be better but I'm not sure about this either.

Peace.
Klaus

[Viscosity]

I've been playtesting this deck. I can't yet say which is better; this or the UW variant I've been playtesting. But I will keep testing and see what I like. I will say that I do not think Cunning Wish is a good choice at all. It is just too slow for the current meta, IMO.

- if not, do I just cycle him and "gain" 2-4 life?

This is why Jace is good. Because the WORST possible outcome is that you draw one card and your opponent uses some damage to remove him. I also like to play Jace simply as drawing 3 extra cards and letting him die to himself. Absolutely nothing wrong with 3 extra cards, he's already done his job at that point.

Jace VS FoF:
In SpeedStill I can confidently state that Jace is strictly better. As I mentioned before this is due to the removal suite and the lower mana curve, which actually allows you to cast multiple spells in the same turn even in the late early game/ early midgame.
As for regular WishStill lists, FoF might be better but I'm not sure about this either.

I have to agree. This deck's strength is also its weakness; the black removal suite. It is the removal suite that makes Jace work. The removal protects him and is also a lot of cards that are cheap. Jace also solves the issue of "dead removal" against the control mirror. He is a control vs control beast and as you outdraw your opponent, you simply start discarding the dead spot removal. Jace is what gives "speedstill" versatility. Noone wants a handful of smothers/edicts in the landstill mirror. But running 2 Jace AND 2 Elspeth help you pull out of those matches.

~V

[georgjorge]

The basic input came from Illissius (a creative MTG intellectual from TheSource)

I think you are the first one to have used the term "MTG intellectual" ever (and I hope it doesn't catch on...maybe we'll get some "Yu-Gi-Oh intellectuals" as well ?).

[kensook]

It makes me drool imagining myself having 3 planeswalkers out activating each of its abilities every turn with that deck