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Thread: [Deck] Zoo

  1. #4381
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    That list looks... bad. Or rather, it looks like it's incredibly inconsistent and adds very little to your game even when the draws do work out.

    Speaking of inconsistency, I fished out 20 hands on www.deckstats.net with my Zoo listing and had 11 mulligans, almost entirely for lands. I mulled 1 hand that was 2 lands, 2 QPMs, a Flame Rift and a Tarmogoyf. I felt like 5 was going to be better than that. Here's the breakdown:

    T3: 8 (2 mulls)
    T4: 11 (3 mulls, 2 double mulls)
    T5: 1 (double mull)

    None of those included Fireblast, sadly. Deckstats was not being generous to me on my fishing.

    As I've said before, the key to playing Zoo in Legacy right now is speed. Speed is important because the combo decks are not going to give you more than 3 turns to beat them. Being a turn 4 aggro deck is simply not acceptable when we have little to no main board disruption. To this end, I've been working on streamlining the deck. While Tarmogoyf and Qasali Pridemage are necessary evils for dealing with midrange decks (where their Tarmogoyfs will otherwise brick you), I've changed the focus of the deck to maximizing the damage the deck does in the first 3 turns. These are the critical turns against combo. If you do enough damage to storm early, you take away the Ad Nauseam plan and force them to try and go off with IGG or split and rush a Tendrils just to gain a buffer for a second attempt. If you do enough damage against Show and Tell, you can ideally untap and simply finish them with burn. Since most Show and Tell listings are running Misdirection, you're generally hoping for Emrakul, rather than Griselbrand, so that you can swing through them if they have the turn 2 Emrakul; you have to count on at least 1 burn spell being sent back at you or countered. Against TinFins, there's little that you're going to do about a turn 1 combo, but again, on the slower combos, the early damage is massively important; if you can cut them off from 7 cards, that's good. Cutting them off from 14 cards is even better.

    This streamlining makes the deck weaker against midrange and control; your threats are not as good, standing alone, as they would be in a more traditional build where you have access to value creatures like Grim Lavamancer and Scavenging Ooze. You're not a glass cannon, by any means, but the matchups skew away from you with this build. However, I still consider it to be the best Zoo build out there right now; by virtue of its speed, it seriously punishes greedy keeps by your opponents. Unlike combo, which will also punish slow keeps, Zoo does not rely on any single lynchpin to function. Against combo, a counterspell buys a turn or more. Against Zoo, a counterspell buys up to a turn. Also, the available board hate against us is far less devastating than the hate available against combo.

    4 Hidden Herd
    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Vexing Devil
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Qasali Pridemage

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Boros Charm
    2 Reckless Charge
    2 Flame Rift
    2 Fireblast

    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    3 Taiga
    3 Plateau
    2 Savannah

    Sideboard
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Silence
    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Choke
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Ravenous Trap
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
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  2. #4382

    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Any thoughts on this beauty?

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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Just a worse Tarmogoyf, in my opinion.

    In the event that you do really want to use the Raiders, try playing Kird Ape/Loam Lion and maindeck Pyroclasms. That deals with the 1/1's you're giving them while leaving your dudes alone. That still sounds bad though, like really bad.

    A better direction would be to keep the low curve of traditional zoo, rather than going the mid-range Big Zoo/Maverick +Red route, but add in these beauties:

    Kavu Predator
    Punishing Fire
    Grove of the Burnwillows
    Swords to Plowshares (instead of Paths)
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    That list looks... bad. Or rather, it looks like it's incredibly inconsistent and adds very little to your game even when the draws do work out.

    Speaking of inconsistency, I fished out 20 hands on www.deckstats.net with my Zoo listing and had 11 mulligans, almost entirely for lands. I mulled 1 hand that was 2 lands, 2 QPMs, a Flame Rift and a Tarmogoyf. I felt like 5 was going to be better than that. Here's the breakdown:

    T3: 8 (2 mulls)
    T4: 11 (3 mulls, 2 double mulls)
    T5: 1 (double mull)

    None of those included Fireblast, sadly. Deckstats was not being generous to me on my fishing.

    As I've said before, the key to playing Zoo in Legacy right now is speed. Speed is important because the combo decks are not going to give you more than 3 turns to beat them. Being a turn 4 aggro deck is simply not acceptable when we have little to no main board disruption. To this end, I've been working on streamlining the deck. While Tarmogoyf and Qasali Pridemage are necessary evils for dealing with midrange decks (where their Tarmogoyfs will otherwise brick you), I've changed the focus of the deck to maximizing the damage the deck does in the first 3 turns. These are the critical turns against combo. If you do enough damage to storm early, you take away the Ad Nauseam plan and force them to try and go off with IGG or split and rush a Tendrils just to gain a buffer for a second attempt. If you do enough damage against Show and Tell, you can ideally untap and simply finish them with burn. Since most Show and Tell listings are running Misdirection, you're generally hoping for Emrakul, rather than Griselbrand, so that you can swing through them if they have the turn 2 Emrakul; you have to count on at least 1 burn spell being sent back at you or countered. Against TinFins, there's little that you're going to do about a turn 1 combo, but again, on the slower combos, the early damage is massively important; if you can cut them off from 7 cards, that's good. Cutting them off from 14 cards is even better.

    This streamlining makes the deck weaker against midrange and control; your threats are not as good, standing alone, as they would be in a more traditional build where you have access to value creatures like Grim Lavamancer and Scavenging Ooze. You're not a glass cannon, by any means, but the matchups skew away from you with this build. However, I still consider it to be the best Zoo build out there right now; by virtue of its speed, it seriously punishes greedy keeps by your opponents. Unlike combo, which will also punish slow keeps, Zoo does not rely on any single lynchpin to function. Against combo, a counterspell buys a turn or more. Against Zoo, a counterspell buys up to a turn. Also, the available board hate against us is far less devastating than the hate available against combo.

    4 Hidden Herd
    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Vexing Devil
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Qasali Pridemage

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Boros Charm
    2 Reckless Charge
    2 Flame Rift
    2 Fireblast

    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    3 Taiga
    3 Plateau
    2 Savannah

    Sideboard
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Silence
    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Choke
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Ravenous Trap
    Love this list, I might have to do something similar. It's a sligh approach, which I've always been a fan of. Plus, someone is finally recognizing the raw speed that Vexing Devil can bring...not to mention it beefs your Goyfs if they opt to sac it, which is relivant against combo decks.

    No Path to Exile, even in the sideboard? The Reckless Charge addition is sexy for sure, I've always liked the option of playing a turn 1 Lynx, then going turn 2 fetchland into a Nacatl + Charge, swing for 10. It gives you enough raw speed to fight some of the slower combo decks.

    I'm going to start digging into this deck again, after having some moderate success with my B/G/w Rock deck.

    Starting point (realize I have a combo-heavy metagame, GSZ + Teeg is neccessary maindeck):

    4x Wild Nacatl
    4x Steppe Lynx
    4x Vexing Devil
    3x Tarmogoyf
    3x Grim Lavamancer
    1x Qasali Pridemage
    1x Gaddock Teeg

    2x Green Sun's Zenith
    4x Path to Exile
    4x Lightning Bolt
    4x Lightning Helix
    3x Chain Lightning
    2x Boros Charm
    2x Sylvan Library

    19-20 lands (possibly going to 61 in the main)


    Sideboard: some mix of Choke, Ethersworn Canonist, Surgical Extraction, Sulfuric Vortex, Oblivion Ring, Krosan Grip, etc. Combo hate, grave hate, some blue hate, and a way to break out of a Counterbalance lock.
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    I take back all the mean things I said about this thread a few pages ago. This is fantastic. I can always use a good laugh.


    It is good to see you guys catching on to Boros Charm though, despite all the dismissal when I posted about it earlier.
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    I've been on the Boros Charm bandwagon since it was printed. I think it does nicely as a substitute for Price of Progress, especially against decks that don't use a lot of non-basics. Doubling up on Goyf can net you 5+ damage from it, too.
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    How many copies of Boros Charm are people playing in their Zoo lists?

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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    I know this is bad, but what would a goyf-less zoo deck look like? I still haven't been able to drop that much on them just yet :(
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    I know this is bad, but what would a goyf-less zoo deck look like? I still haven't been able to drop that much on them just yet :(
    Maverick.

    Although here's a list that I ran pretty successfully for months at various tournaments before the metagame shifted. It's a Goyfless list, but not due to budget reasons.

    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Taiga
    2 Savannah
    1 Plateau
    4 Punishing Fire
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Punishing Fire
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    (2 flex spots)

    It had positive matchups against RUG, Stoneblade, Goblins, Merfolk, Counterbalance, and Grindstone decks. It was a slight favorite against Reanimator and Sneak Attack (pre-Griselbrand).

    That being said, it would not be competitive in the current metagame:
    - Control has the ability to easily sweep away your board with Terminus and to both disrupt Punishing Fire inevitability with Rest in Peace or simply by racing you with a bunch of Angels.
    - Reanimator's creatures are no longer as vulnerable to Karakas (or Maze of Ith for the ones that you cared about). Griselbrand hitting the board early is enough to get the job done, plus you can't easily kill it like you could Jin (either in combat, with a REB, etc.).
    - Sneak Attack is a lot more consistent for the same reason.
    - Show and Tell decks which don't use Sneak Attack were always a terrible matchup and seem to be on the rise.
    - Elves was a terrible matchup since you only have 12 relevant cards against them (besides a quick Wild Nacatl clock). Now the new lists are even faster because they could just Natural Order or Zenith for a Craterhoof.
    - The black attrition decks that usually relied on fragile creatures gained Liliana of the Veil. That's not a problem by itself (such as in Deadguy Ale, with so many fragile creatures that you can easily destroy), but we're talking about Junk with Knight of the Reliquary, it's a different story altogether.

    Even the "good" matchups (BUG control, Team America, Jund, Maverick, etc.) are not easy. I don't see any compelling reason to play Zoo at the moment.

  10. #4390
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    I know this is bad, but what would a goyf-less zoo deck look like? I still haven't been able to drop that much on them just yet :(
    Do we know that going 'goyfless is bad? Sometimes, you have cards that are iconic in a given deck or even across many decks in a format. Cards become iconic by being really, really good. Sometimes, these cards fall out of favor because something better is printed. There was a time when Mask of Memory and Sword of Fire and Ice were the two most played equipment. Now, Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull see 10 times as much play as Sword and Mask sees 0 play at all. Naturalize gave way to Krosan Grip.

    Sometimes, iconic cards fall out of favor because of shifts in the metagame. Counterbalance was once everywhere. Now it's played in 1 deck and it's not even a full Countertop package there. Sometimes the fall of an iconic card is cataclysmic, usually in cases where the card is supplanted by an improved descendant, but sometimes because of metagame shifts (think Vengevine in the wake of the banning of Survival). Sometimes, the fall is something that happens slowly and takes months for people to recognize (think Kird Ape into Hidden Herd in this very thread).

    Now, I'm not saying that Tarmogoyf has fallen. But what I am saying is that every card always deserves our evaluation. Sometimes, we don't evaluate cards because we don't have time. So we go by old evaluations. Generally, that's ok. If I looked at the role of Force of Will in a given style of deck 6 months ago, I am probably ok with running Force of Will in that style of deck today. However, that does not mean that there won't be times where Force of Will is wrong. We've seen that in lists that shave Forces in times when combo presence is down. Force is as iconic as a card can get, having been present in the format at all times since before Legacy was even its own format. But sometimes, a deck can support Force of Will but doesn't want to.

    So lets examine what Zoo wants to do. Where does Zoo want to position itself in the field? Well, we're similar to a number of other archetypes. Maverick has a similar positioning. Cheap creatures that *do* stuff, backed with some utility and a relatively aggressive bent. They're definitely more controlling than we are, but at their heart, they're generally aggressive. Burn is similar as well, in the other direction. They have less permanent threats than we do, but they're very aggressive and even more reliant on turn 3 goldfishes for wins than we are; burn runs out of steam very quickly. Finally, Affinity is a more distant analogue than Maverick or Burn, but still a similar style of deck. Affinity runs lots of cheap on-board threats and a little utility, but they're more all-in on a couple of haymaker threats (MoE, Plating, Tezz). Imagine if you were still running Apes and Lions and really banking on 4xFireblast and 4x Price of Progress to push victories through and you've got a close approximation of Affinity.

    Let's also look at what the big dogs are in the metagame, because that's what we're trying to position ourselves against. The decks that we really have to be aware of are Jund, BUG, Stoneblade, Miracles, Show and Tell (Sneak and Omni variants) and Storm. Those decks are more common and represent more T8's than other archetypes. That's not to say that you want to be dead in the water vs. Dredge or Elves or any other less-played archetype, but you're more concerned with the matchups against the big 6 than you are against the rest of the field.

    Jund, BUG and Stoneblade are all midrange decks. Zoo's creatures are going to matchup poorly against these decks because our creatures generally don't *do* stuff. Wild Nacatl is just a vanilla beater, whereas Deathrite Shaman doesn't beat for as much, but has significant added utility. Because their creatures all do stuff, they're slower. Utility creatures cost more than vanilla beaters. This also means that they need to run disruption, whether it's discard, counters, or board interaction. They're going to seek to drag us into a long game where they can beat us with incremental advantage and superior card quality.

    Miracles represents the formats only real control deck. It runs significantly more disruption than the midrange decks and wins with combos (whether it's the CB soft-lock, the RiPHelm instant win or just an EoT miracled Entreat into a lethal swing). While they run more disruption, less of their disruption comes in the way of blockers; they're not going to outclass our creatures because they barely run any. So they have to interact with us via non-creature spells.

    Show and Tell and Storm are both factors in the format because they're stable iterations of combo. Belcher, SI, the Balustrad deck and TinFins are faster, but they're less resilient to disruptive pressure. In order to achieve that resilience, they make heavy use of cantrips and other draw smoothing effects. This allows them to find pieces that have been stripped from their hand or find their own disruption to counteract opposing counterspells, but it also means that they usually have to spend a turn or two setting up their combo; they're not structured to push for the T1 win every time. Generally, you've got until turn 3 to beat these decks, turn 4 with a piece of disruption.

    Now the combo decks aren't going to interact with you much at all. It's simply not profitable for them to spend a turn trying to slow you down; they want to race you. If you hit critical mass before them, you win. If you don't, you lose. So beating combo is all about having that turn 3 goldfish as consistently as possible. Beating Miracles comes down to not letting them get you in a headlock. You need to either kill them before they can lock you out with CB/Top or RiP/Energy Field or you need to be able to disrupt those soft-locks. If they can drag the game out long enough, through the use of counters and Terminus, you reach a point where they can bring their big gun (Jace, TMS) to bear on you. At that point, you're going to be grasping at straws. So you either need to be really, really fast or relatively fast and relatively disruptive. The midrange decks push you to the other end of the spectrum. Being really, really fast can beat them as well, but often, because they can negate your creatures relatively early with a combination of removal and blockers, you're leaning heavily on your burn suite to get you there. And sometimes, when they have a less creature or removal heavy draw and a more disruptive draw, your burn is not as good and you're relying heavily on your creatures to get there. Beating removal heavy draws is about having removal of your own to disrupt their creatures and maintain tempo. Beating disruption heavy draws is about having 1 or two heavy hitters that can carry while they're playing with your hand.

    To recap, combo forces you to play a faster game. Control forces you to either go faster or become better at interacting with non-creature spells. Midrange forces you to become better at interacting with creatures while playing more solid stand-alone threats and a solid burn suite.

    Obviously, we can't do all of these things at once. So we pick and choose. We hedge our bets a little with flexible cards like Qasali Pridemage. It's not as good vs. artifacts and enchantments as Nature's Claim. It's not as good of a threat vs. combo as Wild Nacatl. It's somewhere in the middle and allows us game vs. everything. I see Tarmogoyf falling into this category. Tarmogoyf is a glue card. It holds the deck together on less-than-stellar draws. It gives you a real threat vs. the midrange decks. It still applies pressure to storm, although not as well as Nacatl. It lets you clock Miracles without overextending into Terminus. It's not the best card for any of those roles, but it's fair to excellent in them. To touch back to the first paragraph about analagous decks, Tarmogoyf is a Cranial Plating. Getting rid of Tarmogoyf doesn't mean that your deck becomes bad, it simply means that you can't build your deck around shitty enablers and a few key threats. You need to run more to the burn model and push for faster goldfishes. In fact, a Zoo deck without Tarmogoyf would arguably just be a burn deck... splash green. You improve on Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Mauraders with Wild Nacatl and Hidden Herd. You still run a heavy burn suite, all of which would be reasonable to run in an actual burn deck. The only difference between you and burn at that point is the swap from black to green.

    So what would 'goyfless Zoo look like? It would look like a burn deck.



    Mr. Safety: I'm not sure why combo-heavy meta means you have to run GSZ->Teeg. When you break that down into strategy terms, what you're saying is: "I like the idea of killing my opponent on turn 3. But because so many decks in my area will kill me on turn 3 unless I kill them, I'm going to spend slots in my deck on a way to tutor up a disruptive creature on turn 3. Then they can't win until they deal with it!" Well yeah, that's true. But GSZ into Teeg on turn 3, while reliable, seems less reliable than melting their face on turn 3. I would argue that a combo-heavy metagame is a reason not to run GSZ. A control heavy metagame is. Reckless Charge shines vs. combo and is mediocre to terrible vs. everything else. It's not great vs. combo because it disrupts their goldfish but because it represents 6-7 additional damage on your clock (for Wild Nacatl/Vexing Devil) in ideal circumstances and 3 (same as bolt) the rest of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    I put together a goyfless list on MTGO for a while. Replaced Goyfs with a mix of Thalia, Teeg, and Stoneforge Mystic for Sword of Body and Mind/Jitte. It seemed fine, though the MTGO meta is full of combo so I didn't put up a ton of finishes with it. Here's one that I did alright in, despite playing against combo all 4 rounds (Show and Tell, Elves, Reanimator, and Metalworker)

    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/4965303
    I'
    This was before Boros Charm. I'd probably add 2-3 charms to this list in place of the Price of Progress and one or both Helixes.

    If you're building the deck on MTGO, I'd add extra Thalias as well. In paper, 2 is plenty.

    The lands are bad mostly for budget reasons. Savannah costs 4x as Plateau on MTGO, and the Bloodstained Mires were because I already owned them for a burn list and figured I could save on with minimal problems. Not many people play Wasteland decks on MTGO.

    If you go this route, I would also seriously consider Sword of Light and Shadow over Body and Mind. I'd personally still prefer BaM, since it gets you past Goyfs and provides an immediate, guaranteed impact (SoLaS relies on you both having a dead creature and being able to cast it, but you get the Wolf right away), but I can see a strong argument for SoLaS, mostly because it stops you from getting brickwalled by Batterskull or Tombstalker, as well as giving you a little bit of extra time to try and beat a Griselbrand (you get one attack after he is in play). Also protection from Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile is a pretty big game. I don't think Fire and Ice or Feast and Famine are viable options. War and Peace provides you with some pure aggression, but pro-red is pretty irrelevant (+2 toughness is basically protection from Bolt anyway) and in that situation you're probably just as well off with a Jitte.

    All this said, I still think Goyf is the best option, but I don't think he's so incredibly good (especially in Zoo) that Stoneforge Mystic/Thalia aren't viable alternatives if you're operating on a budget. It's not like Zoo with Goyfs is a top tier deck these days, after all.
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  13. #4393

    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Hey I 4-0'd a Legacy event at my LGS last night with this list:

    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Loam Lion
    4 Burning-Tree Emissary
    4 Experiment One
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Dryad Militant
    2 Firedrinker Satyr (I was going to play Vexing Devil but couldn't find them in time, I wouldn't play Satyr again)

    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Boros Charm
    4 Warrior's Lesson

    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Arid Mesa
    3 Taiga
    2 Plateau
    2 Savannah
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest

    I beat High Tide, Maverick, UR Delver with Young Pyromancer and Reanimator. The only deck I felt like I shouldn't have beaten was Reanimator. Just some food for thought. When I drew Lesson against my non-combo opponents it was awesome.

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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Interesting list. Loses to Chalice, but I mean whatever right? haha. So lesson is really good then?
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    Re: [Deck] Zoo

    Please don't post in this thread anymore, the new Zoo primer is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rimer-Deck-Zoo
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
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    I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline retarded.
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