Hi all
"The plan" of this deck is to play early beats followed by removal-> burn-to-face. Its simple, but thats why it works! Tweaking this deck means putting in cards that fit "the plan" better than previous ones.
- Cursed Scroll is a great card! I've played a lot of deadguy ale, and this card simply wins games! But in RGW-Zoo there are better choices that don't divert from "the plan" as much. So i don´t buy the cursed scroll = consistency argument.
- Jitte is situational and belongs in the sideboard.
- Rancor would almost always rather be another critter or a burn spell - put it back in ur mono-green stompy deck.
- Wargear? Stop playing mainboard pump! Play more burn instead.
The way I see it, this is the core of the deck:
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
20 lands.
This leaves two slots open.
Besides the cards already discussed in the critter slot, wouldnt a bear fit in MB really well? Teeg, Shusher or Cannonist all improve some matchups enormously, while never being dead (as they can still simply smash face).
And I would really love to play more burn! Fireblast? Price of Progress?
Peace out!
Oh yea: Chant is imo the best anti-combo card in the SB. Combo will deal with any permanent based hate you play fairly easy. The standard Combo player will prob sb in his bounce/critter/artifact hate against you. Not expecting Chant until it is to late... muahahaha!
A lot of ANT variants run pact of negation to stop that, don't forget that. Also, a lot of the time the player will duress or chant you himself, so you chant back buying 1 turn. Usually that 1 turn isn't enough, but who knows.
Also, I like Grafted Wargear better than rancor. You don't get 2 for 1ed ever by it unless someone runs disenchant main or wastes a EE at 3. It turns everyone into a freaking huge monster.
@ Viscosity
You certainly have a very interesting decklist. Scepter Aggro is definitely odd (and cool), and your deck had some interesting plays when we tested.
Zoo is almost a bye for competent combo players already. This is a fact of life as an aggro deck.P.S. - 4EAK - Your decklist looks like a "bye" for combo.
Perhaps you didn't read my entire post. I already explained that the deck needs to run way more hate to have a shot against combo. Either play a lot more hate, or just screw the match.
Your deck isn't exactly zoo though, and it has at least a few answers at the expense of some of the aggressive functions of your deck. Even your deck isn't favorable against combo though.
In our testing (only a few games) against TES and ANT, even when your deck did draw combo hate (which was too sparse in the main), it wasn't in large enough numbers to stop the combo deck. Duress/Thoughtseize was bad for you (because it usually came first turn, while you were busy playing a creature, taking your only chant). A counter or bounce spell on scepter/chant, which was easy to tutor up if we didn't open with an answer to chant, and the combo deck just went off with AdN at high heath or IGG at low.
First and second turn wins are just too common from Tendrils combo decks to make a match even 50/50 without discard and permission. Combo is used to facing at least some resistance, so 3 chants 3 scepters and 4 other cards in the side are not a serious issue when you only have a 4th or 5th turn kill at best. While your deck has a clock, it doesn't make up for the lack of disruption. You really need a lot more hate to make it the combo match worth your while.
This leads me to ask, why play your deck instead of just focusing on the aggro strategy? You don't have strong enough answer to combo to merit the slots, and yet you have a weaker game against many decks that would cause you to play Zoo in the first place.
peace,
4eak
My comment about your deck was mostly because I didn't even see sideboard cards to help.. As if you were just going to throw the round. But yeah, I missed your comment about the fact that you were throwing the combo matches. So no biggie, it was intentional.
Everything is subject to Meta-game adjustments though. At the time I played the deck in the tournaments, I was maindecking 2 gaddock teeg, 3 chants, and sideboard 3 ethersworn, one chant, one teeg. I see nothing wrong with maindeck teegs. I would play teeg over legionnaire or watch wolf any day. It stops EE, WoG, belcher, ANT, TES, Moat, etc.
The first game against ANt, he went off blind, because all he saw were little critters and he did'nt have discard (don't they only run 4?). I Orim's chanted him after he cast infernal tutor and had 5 mana floating. GG. After board, I had 10 anti-combo cards in the deck. I was the only one who beat ANT that night.
I find the fast pace very relevant against ANT, because the burn and quick damage make it harder to draw more with adnauseum. With the maindeck teegs and chants, it was a lot easier. I found that dropping a teeg or canonist was usually GG due to the fast clock.
I changed the decklist as I find ANT less favorable of a deck choice these days and I'm not seeing it as much in my meta. There is so much blue based hate such as counterbalance, that I don't think ANT would win the local tournaments anymore.
Concerning scepter. I just really like the way it plays in here. Scepter with a bolt or helix is aggro is it not?
Like what? I've only found scepter to make the deck stronger in almost every match up. Chant as well.
super fail @ bad deck
hey guys =)
I just don't see why people think Jitte should be in the sideboard. It's so freaking good. And in a deck with a bunch of creatures it's just insane. Between me and Pulp Fiction alone, we have at least top 2ed a tournament 12 times or more, with just this list. Just try it out, and if you aren't satisfied with thinking about plays and not just burning to the dome and attacking then ok play your own list. We just play what's good. No cards in the maindeck are a metagame call they are just good. And they win. That's why we play them.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
No, I'm dead serious. So I guess that means I'm in your ignorant category... The deck is fun, very fun in fact. Sometimes its broken when your hand has 3 nacatls and you win in 2 minutes.
HOWEVER, if the deck loses to both chalice and counterbalance, how can it be competitive in our environment? The variety of green/blue control decks running around are substantial and most of them dream of getting aggro match-ups, where they can EE things away, drop counterbalance, and say GG.
First turn chalice is immediate loss. I expect chalice at the GP (and tons of counterbalance), so I'm just saying this deck wouldn't be my first choice is all.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Well, I recently decided that I liked this deck, so this is what I've thrown together so far and my thoughts on the deck:
// Lands (19)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Mountain (2)
1 [R] Savannah
// Creatures (20)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [9E] Kird Ape
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
// Spells (21)
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares/Path to exile
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
Some explanations:
--I really feel that swords should be path to exile. I can't see the opponent gaining land as a real drawback against this deck, at least compared to life. An opponent gaining 3-5 life from a creature can really be the difference of a turn.
--Shusher is in the main, because this deck needs an out to counterbalance/chalice. That's simply all there is to it. You have to sacrifice a little speed by not being able to play a stronger threat, but I feel that shusher can actually help you steal some games. In addition, it doesn't seem that you always need to play out your whole hand anyway, so having that extra utility is good. Also, this saves you sideboard slots, which is critical.
--Figure is a lategame card that can be an early-game card, which is why he's good. You can play him cheap and early, get some damage in, then pump him up later in the game when you need something stronger. However, he's not incredibly strong early game compared to your other one-drops (Nacatl, ape; Isamaru is not good enough to be run in my opinion). Thus, I think he deserves a 3x slot.
--Thoctar is a "late" game card. You won't always be able to play this guy third turn, because you won't always have color/mana. However, he's the biggest threat you got (most often), and really improves your late-game when you can have bigger threats. Plus, it's pretty scary to be beaten by a nacatl, burned, and then have this guy on you. However, you don't always want him early or multiples so much, so once again, I think he deserves a 3x slot. The other reason why this is justified is that it gives you more game against counterbalance. If they have to counter your early stuff, you can usually get this guy to evade a balance, and that can really help you swing the game in your favor.
--I'm not sure about the jittes/fireblast. I haven't come to a conclusion yet of what those other spaces should be used for. Jitte is good, no doubt, but I don't know specifically what it helps against in the main. Fireblast is somewhat good, helping get some damage in quicker and sooner, but I really hate loosing two land, and I don't know if it's worth it as a finisher. It seems also somewhat good against Ad nauseam combo, but you can't rely on it with so few.
SB:
--I think that thorn of amethyst is your best combo weapon, with teeg second. Why thorn first? Because the main ways that combo deals with problem cards is by bouncing them. They're fine bouncing teeg or canonist, but when they have to pay one more colorless to play their bounce...Well, that makes it much harder for them. Especially if you're able to get out multiples. Sure it can't swing, but you have plenty of guys who can already, and teeg gets you a couple extra damage, versus thorn giving you more time.
--With shusher in the main, you have a lot of options in the board. The way I have it set up is with 11 combo-hate, basically because I haven't really got to see what the board is needed against. I also don't know if all 4 k-grips are needed with shusher.
I'm out of time now, but I'll make sure to keep posting later.
good post. +1 for thorn being awesome.
Also, I like the main deck shusher.
That list looks awesome.
But IMO. Your sideboard should be playing some Choke. It's such a bomb these days.
Well...What exactly do we have to fear from them? Isn't 3x Shusher and 4x Krosan grip good enough? I wouldn't want to cut grip, because it's much more useful than choke, but then that eats up more sideboard slots. I feel like blue is going to have a very tough time with you after the board, especially when you side in teeg as well.
Also, I wonder if orim's chant is better than ethersworn canonist in this scenario. Simply because it lets us play it faster. The thing I hate, however, is that we have to keep mana open instead of playing a threat. However, combo is fast enough to the point where having 2-cost cards may not be enough. (On combo, thorn also slows down their cantrips, so it makes it harder for them to find their hate.)
Rancor is a cool card, no doubt! Kird Apes with Rancors whas my first true love in mtg . And i understand the underwhelming´nes of being 2/3 sometimes. But I still feel that rancor is not a seriuos tournament card today. ur simply gonna get 2 for 1´ed sometimes (one time is one to many). Also if you´ve tested Rancor, you know how much is sux to sit there looking at a hand with 2 rancors and hoping to top a critter...
Jitte is the only pump-card worthy of discussion. I personally don´t like it main, because its too mana intensive. But in an aggro heavy meta, maybe... Imo its an SB card.
In the ANT thread, there was a comment that they fear Cannonist more then Teeg. Teeg does nothing to stop them setting up. Cannonist can make it harder during the setup-phase ass well as stopping the combo.
Thorn for sure in the SB! This is perhaps the best permanent-based anti storm card.
I´m a Derek, and Derek's don't run...
First off: I'd never play Rancor in Zoo.. I LOOOOVE the card, but it's shit.. As Suneloon states: Getting 2 for 1'ed in Zoo SUCKS! Having Rancor in hand and missing a critter SUCKS!
And YES! I've played Jitte plenty of times in plenty of decks.. It's a KICKASS equipment.. It's THE equipment.. But it improves our good MU's and does nothing in the bad MU's! -I'd rather play Teegs/Shushers/Canonists main.. Hell I'd rather play Mask of Memory since it actually helps the deck. ;) Jitte MD is winmore IMO.
I would post a decklist if I weren't so damn lazy.. But I have to make one first ;)
MEMENTO MORI!
Danish Legacy Addict
Yeah, that's the impression I get from jitte as well. Our creatures should almost always be bigger than the opponent's, and if not then we still have burn/swords. Jitte really doesn't help speed the game up all that much, or be all that useful in problem situations. I kind of get the impression from Fireblast as well. I mean, I like it a lot, but at the same time if it's enough to kill them, then it's probably not much of a problem to wait an extra turn/late enough in the game to just cast regular burn. I really don't like that it's pretty much uncastable until the endgame =| I've kind of wanted to put runed halo in there, for combo/control, but at the same time I don't know if it would actually be all that useful. It'd be...unexpected at least. I hate WW, but with all three R/W/G dual lands it shouldn't be that hard.
rancor is just good. If you allow yourself to get 2 for 1'd then that was your player error. It is not hard to avoid. You should always be getting rancor back from killed creatures, and eventually rancor can turn into a card that blue decks want/need to counterspell in order to stop. I'm very happy with 2 rancors, as I never want to see too many and reduce the threat count substantially.
I mentioned it already, but a 3/3 mongoose is a very common situation to be up against. Rancor makes thresh fold to your 4/3s and larger goyfs to kill their goyfs.
I agree that the casting and equipping of jitte is too slow. I'd rather play woolly thoctar. this deck does best with 3 land drops, and after some more fishing, I really like thoctar. Thoctar must be dealt with, often kills goyfs, and allows you to not overextend your cards into mass removal. Plus the casting cost of 3 is a plus in our format.
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