Must-Know for Chicago?

[dahcmai]

Magus is layer 4; it changes subtypes. Humility's "lose abilities" is layer 5. That's why it works like it does. This was changed some year ago; previously there was some dumb rules about all parts of an ability being applied in the same layer if Nonsense. That was removed and now abilities applying in multiple parts actually do apply in multiple parts. If Magus were layer 5, I don't think it'd ever work due to dependancy rules (its existent would be dependent on Humility's ability and thus Humility gets applied first, much like Blood Moon vs. Urborg where Urborg is dependant upon Blood Moon and is always applied second).

Ooops, you're right, had the numbers wrong. I knew it was one layer before Humility.

[freakish777]

Your Pyroclasm on the stack vs. your own Threshold creatures with 6 cards in the graveyard (just like Goyf, the lethal damage isn't checked for until resolution at which point your guys are bigger).

This came up at least twice in Binghamton last weekend, including watching someone bin their own Mongoose, at which point someone else had to go grab the judge to point out to those players that Mongoose was still in play.

[quicksilver]

It helps me and that's really all this thread is intended for.

Seeing this thread's sole purpose at helping you is rather selfish. I think a lot of people can benefit from this thread.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to educate the judges going into GP:C about common Legacy interactions that they haven't seen before.

People are posting stuff like, "Clean up is the last thing that happens..."

Sensei's divining top is a very popular card right now and not everyone knows that if your opponent discards, you can't use it. This also means that you should announce going to your discard phase since you have to give your opponent a chance to play things.

Totems are whatever they animate into, but lose abilities. (ex. Phyrexian Totem is a 5/5 w no abilities)

It still has trample. It will have any abilities granted to it by the ability that turns it into a creature. It still won't be able to tap for mana or make you sacrifice permenants.

Things like "Krosan Grip still triggers Counterbalance" is going to be obvious to the judge staff.

Even judges can get some pretty obvious calls wrong. At the first Legacy grand prix when I did my judge test I had to point out to another one of the judges that Gempalm Incinerator calculates damage upon resolution, not when it is cast.

[Forbiddian]

Even judges can get some pretty obvious calls wrong. At the first Legacy grand prix when I did my judge test I had to point out to another one of the judges that Gempalm Incinerator calculates damage upon resolution, not when it is cast.

Yes, but if the purpose of this thread is to educate incompetent judges on every possible card interaction that they might make a mistake on, this thread will be 7,000 pages long and still incomplete.

We're assuming that the judges are competent in rules relevant to Standard (and maybe Extended), but there are a number of Legacy interactions that will probably be novel to them, and stuff like Humility layers would be long forgotten for many standard judges.


Casting instants at end of turn against a full grip happens ALL the time in Standard.

Did you know that Upkeep happens BEFORE the draw step? And then you can cast sorceries before you attack and/or after you attack?

I'm sure judges have fucked up those rules calls, but we have to assume that they have those basics down before they judge at a GP. Assuming less is wasteful.

[Anusien]

Seeing this thread's sole purpose at helping you is rather selfish. I think a lot of people can benefit from this thread.

Make your own damn thread then.

Even judges can get some pretty obvious calls wrong. At the first Legacy grand prix when I did my judge test I had to point out to another one of the judges that Gempalm Incinerator calculates damage upon resolution, not when it is cast.

OMG, a judge got a call wrong! That means that all judges suck lololol.
...
I basically tried to distill Legacy into 3 pages to educate other judges. Some obvious stuff is getting omitted. I'm okay with that.

[KrzyMoose]

I'm not sure if this is the same thing as with Magus of the Moon, but something that might also be useful to know is the interaction between Painter's Servant and Humility.

Also, I know the Oracle wording is correct, but knowing the right wording of Mox Diamond might be useful to brush up on.

[quicksilver]

Is you plan to seriouly create a list of rules and try to walk up to the judges and tell them how to judge? It seems like a pretentious and insulting thing to do if you ask me.

[Nightmare]

I'm stealing a bunch of this shit for SCG this week. Deal with it.

[Anusien]

Is you plan to seriouly create a list of rules and try to walk up to the judges and tell them how to judge? It seems like a pretentious and insulting thing to do if you ask me.

You realize I'm on staff for Chicago, right?

Is Painter's Servant actually going to be relevant for Chicago? There are a lot of bizarre rulings for it, but I'm not sure if it's going to show up in force enough to be worth mentioning.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Maybe the Kiki-Jiki after Cleanup trick?

Or is that one too obvious?

EDIT:

What Anusien said... :-S

[Anusien]

Maybe the Kiki-Jiki after Cleanup trick?

Or is that one too obvious?

It's impossible to get out of the turn without the turn ending with a Cleanup step.

I assume you mean "at end of turn" versus "until end of turn". I don't think there's anything novel about this trick for Legacy.

I'm stealing a bunch of this shit for SCG this week. Deal with it.

Be aware that I'm gonna post my actual primer in one of my next articles.

[Nightmare]

Be aware that I'm gonna post my actual primer in one of my next articles.

I'm planning on stealing Eldarial's list (with credit, of course) as a miniprimer of sorts in the middle of my article. I'm not citing the CR, it's more for familiarity's sake before the GP. You hit the judges, I'll hit the players.

Deal?

[RoddyVR]

This isnt so much a rules thing, but definetly something all the judges should be reminded of.
Daylight Savings time begining between saturday and sunday will make everyone 1 hour late for day 2.

[landstill101]

Some of the things I would like to see would be like, what is the casting cost of a spell when it is played(such as chalice/ and also split cards(which right now I don't know what the casting cost would be when playing a split card)) so a person knows what to flip off balance, and also what things are considered when they flip for top, since counterbalance will be played heavily

EDIT: have a couple more once i get back.

[quicksilver]

Some of the things I would like to see would be like, what is the casting cost of a spell when it is played(such as chalice/ and also split cards(which right now I don't know what the casting cost would be when playing a split card)) so a person knows what to flip off balance, and also what things are considered when they flip for top, since counterbalance will be played heavily

EDIT: have a couple more once i get back.

For a spell with X in it's casting cost X is always considered 0 when determining the converted mana cost except when the spell is on the stack, in which case X is what you paid for it to be.

So if you wanted to set the chalice at two then the converted mana cost when casting it would be four and you would need to flip a four drop with counter balance to counter it.

Once that same chalice is in play, the converted mana cost is zero and you would need an engineered explosives at zero to kill it.

As for split cards the card has 2 mana costs all the time except when it is on the stack, where it only has the mana cost of the side being cast. So for example if you flip an assault/battery off a dark confidant you would take damage equal to it's converted mana cost. It's converted mana cost is 1 and 4 so you would take 1 and 4 damage (5 total).

If you then cast assault then a counter balance would need to flip 1 to counter it. ( 4 would not work)

If you flip assault/battery with a counterbalance it will have a converted mana cost of 1 and 4 then. So say your opponent cast a one drop. Counter balance will check if the card flipped has a converted mana cost of 1. It does (also happens to have a converted mana cost of 4 too) and it counters it. Likewise assault/battery would counter a 4 drop too because it has a converted mana cost of 4 too. It cannot counter a 5 drop because it does not have a converted mana cost of 5, just 1 and 4.

[dahcmai]

Heh, I never thought about that. I might have to make a couple of changes and add a split for some versatility.


Edit, bummer, all the ones worth playing have the same CC's on both sides. Bah.

[etrigan]

Is Painter's Servant actually going to be relevant for Chicago? There are a lot of bizarre rulings for it, but I'm not sure if it's going to show up in force enough to be worth mentioning.

Regardless of whether it shows up 'in force', it behooves you to know the rules associated with it.

It will show up.

[Anusien]

Regardless of whether it shows up 'in force', it behooves you to know the rules associated with it.

It will show up.

I know the rules associated with it. The question is whether it's worth committing to the short list, so to speak, or whether it's okay to have to check things once or twice because you don't expect it to come up often.

[rockout]

You realize I'm on staff for Chicago, right?

Is Painter's Servant actually going to be relevant for Chicago? There are a lot of bizarre rulings for it, but I'm not sure if it's going to show up in force enough to be worth mentioning.

How can you play/write about legacy and think painter combo won't show up to a huge tournament?

[Eldariel]

Hmm, Painter's Servant has been featured in 4 relevant Legacy Top 8s in 2009. That'd suggest that it isn't big enough to bother about, but if we explore a variety of fringe archetypes, Servant is actually pretty commonly present there (Imperial Painter, Quinn, a variety of Survival- and Countertop-decks with Painter's-combo), so the combined total of Painters present may just be large enough to make getting the rulings straight worth it. At least the ones regarding Wishes, Protection (especially relevant for SoFI & SoLS) & pitch spells.