Table of Content:
1) Introduction
2) The Rock?
3) Build: Agro vs. Control
3.1) Control
3.2) Agro
4) Why and when to play The Rock?
5) Decklist
5.1) Standard List
5.2) Remaining cards
5.3) My list ‘TopRock’
6) Match-ups
1) Introduction:
The old thread about this archetype, The Rock, is rather outdated. The original post from that thread was from 09-02-2005, not including the white splash we all seem to run these days. If you do wish to look into the history of the building, the discussions being done there or just bored and want to read more it can be found at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728.
Since that thread is outdated I planned on writing a new one, hoping to put the spotlight back onto an archetype all known to us. I wouldn’t do such a thing without the approval of an almighty Admin so I waited to post this until the liberating Private Message came: “I'm fine with you starting a new thread”.
To write such an important opening post, one needs to have some experience with the deck itself so I’ll explain a bit why I feel I might be able to. When Tarmogoyf got printed I planned on building myself The Rock. I had played it before, in the days that I still was a bad player. Me and my team started working, making changes after every tournament to make the deck optimal. The last 7 tournaments I have played over the past six months I have Top8’ed 4 times and ended 9th once (player count lower than 30 not included). It’s been performing so well that the deck has gotten the DtB status on Benelegacy.nl, a forum for the Belgium and Netherlands metagame.
Of course, I am not an all knowing Guru. In case you have an idea to add to this post or just find something blatantly wrong, feel free to PM me about it.
2) The Rock?
This deck is considered a hybrid between Agro and Board Control. I’ll let the explanation of the origin from The Rock to Frank Karsten in his article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/daily/fk30
Since then the deck has evolved a lot with every new set bringing better cards to play with. It has now become GBW with only a limited amount of cards still the same as the original lists.The origin of this name is a G/B deck featuring Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit, originally made by Jelger Wiegersma many, many years ago for Urza Block Constructed PTQs. It was plucked from the internet by Sol Malka, who tuned and popularized it and named the deck “The Rock and its Millions”. Jeroen Remie (the world’s most renowned rock expert) explained that this name came from a WWE wrestler named The Rock (he later became an actor). His special gimmick was that he channeled the power of all of his fans, so that was The Rock and his Millions. In terms of the Magic deck that borrowed the name, The Rock refers to Phyrexian Plaguelord and his Millions, which refers to Deranged Hermit. People then played this “The Rock and its Millions” deck for a long time, and the “Rock” part of that name stuck even after the namesake cards were removed. People started associating “Rock” with any mid-range Green/Black deck, not just the Phyrexian Plaguelord version. And over the course of the years, “Rock” has become a synonym for any Green/Black mid-range deck.
3) Build: Agro vs. Control
There are a lot of different lists for the Rock, all having something in common. The used categories to divide these lists are Agro and Control. The lists differ so much that even the game plan and sometimes the way to achieve victory is different. I’ll be talking about the categories, what their upsides/downsides are and the eventual way of winning.
The thing we all strive for is to make a hybrid between a Control and an Agro build, making it a deck with a great early, mid and late game.
3.1) Control
Control uses bigger mana spells. To be able to cast such big spells a lot of mana acceleration is needed. Most commonly used cards for this are Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder and to a lesser extend Veteran Explorer, Yavimaya Elder. Having a higher curve also means they’ll be taking longer to gain control over the board, to get to that point they have to play ways to slow down the opponent. This is usually done with multi-use creatures and extra hand disruption.
The general game plan for a control build is to gain card advantage over the opponent while playing several cards that are of better quality than the opponent. Sort of a mix of quantity and quality. A great example for this is Pernicious Deed. Not only can it generate lots of card advantage, it’s also able to deal with the best cards of your opponent. After achieving such card advantage with a good board position they drop a big creature to finish the game.
Thanks to playing more main deck hand disruption like Cabal Therapy the combo match up is better. Trying to generate more card advantage does several things. The most important is getting enough answers to disrupt or even stop your opponents game plan. The other one is that the deck is more forgiving towards play errors, supplying you with another a new answer anyway.
Cards you’ll find in most control but not plenty of agro lists:
Loxodon Hierarch, Cabal Therapy, Wall of Blossoms, Living Wish, Genesis.
3.2) Agro
Agro has grown from the control build with time, taking several key cards, removing the rest to add undercosted creatures. The result are decks that can apply fast pressure, combining it with spot removal to clear a path but also a deck that has a decent mid/late game. The cards that are usually removed are big mana spells, hand disruption and mana accelerators. But these big spells are usually the way that Rock generates card advantage resulting in agro builds having less ways to do so.
To combat the loss of this ability agro builds try to make every card they draw a good card, often losing some flexibility in the process. The trick in these builds is making every card have a use in a broad variety of matches and during every part of the game. Vindicate is a perfect example of this although it’s not unique to agro builds. Vindicate can kill any targetable permanent in play (except indestructible) making it a card that can adapt to different game plans.
The biggest advantage of an agro build is giving your opponent little time to (re)build his board. Other agro decks like Zoo also does this but agro Rock has a better mid/late game.
Agro mainly focuses on controlling the board, making match ups revolving around non-permanents worse than before.
Cards you’ll find in most agro but not plenty of control lists:
Jotun Grunt, Call of the Herd, Hymn to Tourach
4) Why and when to play The Rock?
The deck is a hybrid, more versatile than other hybrids. This makes the deck strong against a variated metagame. The strength of this deck lies in the ability to have a winning chance against as many decks possible. At the same time that’s the weakness of the deck. To be able to win against a broad amount of decks it has to sacrifice a bit against others, that might have been an auto-win. This means that the deck needs a practiced pilot to perform well and that a few mistakes, as small as they may be, can cost you games.
The best metagame to play The Rock is in a metagame dominated by Agro-Control. I never managed to realise why this is. If you look at the new and upcoming agro-control deck DreadStill and read that topic you’ll notice they have listed The Rock as a bad match up for them. Treshhold is agro-control, also a decent match up.
Bad match ups are decks that run direct damage or combo. The reason for this is that they have no board to control. When you know that your metagame has these decks in a numerous amount I wouldn’t advice playing The Rock unless you heavily adjust your deck.
Eventually Rock grows on you. It has a special way of playing while interacting with your opponent, giving you a great feeling of achievement when winning after lots of decision making. After you fell in love with The Rock (not the Wrestler/actor!) you’ll start playing it even when you shouldn’t. I feel that I have become such a person. While trying to find other decks to play with they always feel worse. Might just be me.
5) Decklist
Since there are many variations between lists it will be hard to give one list. I’ll be posting a list with cards being used 99% of the time while leaving some slots open. Afterwards there will be a list of possible cards to run (see 4.2) in those slots followed by the decklist being used by me at this current moment.
5.1) Standard list:
Land: (22-23)
5-8 Fetchland
6-8 Duals
3-4 Wasteland
3-6 Basics
1-2 Volrath’s Stronghold
Creatures: (10-11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Tombstalker
Instant/Sorcery: (11-12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
Artifact/Enchantment: (5-8)
3-4 Pernicious Deed
2-4 Sensei’s Divining Top
5.2) Remaining cards:
Creatures:
Jotun Grunt: A great card to run. It’s a 4/4 for 1W allowing you to slow down your opponents beatdown or applying fast pressure yourself. It’s cumulative upkeep is often used as graveyard hate or to restock your deck with cards already used. Usually being played with a maximum of 3.
Doran, the Siege Tower: Basicly a 5/5 for 3 mana. The problem with this creature lies within the triple coloured mana. List running Birds of Paradise can support this with more ease. Tombstalker tends to get the preference over this Elemental.
Eternal Witness: This creature is more fitting in a control Rock, returning the good cards back to your hand after already having used them. Great synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold.
Genesis: This card has been a staple for a long time, partially being one of the best cards in the deck. The card has to be in the graveyard to work as you desire. If you have ways of doing this it might be wise to play one.
Birds of Paradise: Is used to speed out your bigger cards to gain control over the board faster. Often being sacrificed to Cabal Therapy before blowing everything up with Pernicious Deed. With the printing of big creatures for a low casting cost this card has been cut from many lists.
Sakura-Tribe Elder: Barely sees play anymore. Before the printing of Tarmogoyf with the dominance of Goblins this card was used to stop an attacker while grabbing you extra land.
Shriekmaw: Replaces Smother in some lists. It has synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold while being a 3/2 body later in the game with some evasion. Also allows to play around Counterbalance. This can hurt with Dark Confidant and isn’t able to kill Artifact or Black creatures.
Kitchen Finks: The persist is what makes this card worth playing. Gaining you 4 life while generating a form of card advantage. You can chump block with it twice, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and let it live through some removal. Often found in a more control build.
Loxodon Hierarch: When Rock started using white as a third color this card replaced Ravenous Baloth. For almost the same mana cost you get the same effect but faster. Regenerating all your creatures can be considered a bonus. When compared to Tarmogoyf, the P/T of this card is bad for it’s casting cost. Played in control build.
Troll Ascetic: Can’t be targeted by your opponent while having the ability to regenerate. A hard creature to get rid of is the least you can say. A weak body compared to other options available. Can either be played in control or agro build but barely sees play these days. Keeping 1G open all the time doesn’t feel good to most players.
Wall of Blossoms: Basicly a cantrip that stops an attacker. This card has been in lists since the existence of Rock. If you want to have a better match against agro you should consider this. Tarmogoyfs tend to trump Wall of Blossoms but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other cards to block.
Veteran Explorer: Now that most metagames have shifted to playing several basics this card has gotten the axe. It was used to gain fast mana to cast bigger creatures than the opponent. Was also a great creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy.
Gigapede: Just like Troll Ascetic, this is a hard card to get rid of. Having a power of 6 it kills as good as every creature to see play. The 1 toughness makes it very weak, often just resulting in trades. That’s where the second part comes in handy, this one returns to your hand if you only discard a card. Due to this being a strain on your mana it mostly sees play in control builds.
Removal:
Smother: Kills almost any creature present in Legacy for 1B at instant speed. Lists that don’t play Shriekmaw tend to play Smother.
Diabolic Edict: Usually played in older lists. Preference goes to removal where you can choose what will die.
Engineered Explosives: An extra board sweeper alongside Pernicious Deed. Used to play around Counterbalance. Also able to kill a bunch of tokens on turn2 where Deed would only do it on turn3.
Discard:
Duress: Is a card of preference. Some play this to have more selection discard alongside Thoughtseize or just replace Thoughtseize completely.
Hymn to Tourach: Extra discard. A commonly used form of card advantage. The double black in it’s casting costs while begging to be cast early in the game forces your deck to run more black.
Cabal Therapy: Since the arrival of Thoughtseize this does not see much play. The cutting of Birds of Paradise also played a role.
Raven’s Crime: When combined with Life from the Loam this card can be a powerhouse. Also an outlet for excess land.
Utility:
Life from the Loam: Since Rock is a Board Control deck it tends to require lots of mana, Loam makes sure you can get back fetchland, Wasteland or destroyed land. Great in combination with Sensei’s Divining Top to dig for the right cards.
Extirpate: There’s a lot of discussion about this card. Some like it so much they run it maindeck while others won’t even think about running it in the sideboard. Personally I find it either ‘Win More’ or ‘Doesn’t do enough’.
Umezawa’s Jitte: Some people like to play this card to provide themselves with lifegain. This card does improve the match up against decks with direct damage but sacrifices others.
Unearth: Brings back cards that you hoped not to be death. The possibility to cycle this card when it would be useless makes it worth playing.
Living Wish: At the cost of some tempo you can either have a creature/land toolbox at your disposal or grab a kill. This card is mostly played in a control build since agro doesn’t want to spend the extra 2 mana.
Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.
Harmonize: A card draw spell in green is pretty Uncommon. Mostly played in control build but several agro lists do run it to keep their threats coming.
Recurring Nightmare: It brings back any creature back from the death if you are willing to sacrifice another. Returning it to your hand makes it reusable as many times as you want/can. In combination with cards that have a CiP effect this Nightmare can generate lots of card advantage.
Worm Harvest: A great finisher against plenty of decks. Combined with Life from the Loam you can keep on Harvesting Wurms. Also a great outlet for excess land.
Land:
Treetop Village: Was used in the old GB lists to start beating after sweeping the board. Coming into play tapped in a much faster Legacy environment proved to be to disadvantageous.
Mishra’s Factory: The current replacement for Treetop Village. 3/3 blocker on turn2 stops lots of deck from fast beats. Great against control decks, often catching the opponents by surprise.
Sideboard:
Your sideboard is dependant on your metagame. I will only provide a list of possibilities. If the card has already been mentioned in the previous part of the listing then I will not give it further explanation.
Krosan Grip: Every green deck plays this card sideboard. Counterbalance seems to be a problem card for The Rock due to the curve being at 1 to 3 mana.
Duress: See Discard.
Extirpate: See Utility.
Thorn of Amethyst: Great against combo such as TES, FT, AdN and more. The first one hitting the table often slows down the opponent long enough to find a second or to do enough damage.
Leyline of the Void: Against graveyard based strategies such as Ichorid and Loam variants. The discussion is between Leyline, Tormod’s Crypt and a newcomer in this battle, Relic of Progenitus.
Tormod’s Crypt: See Leyline of the Void
Relic of Progenitus: See Leyline of the Void
Circle of Protection - Red: Any deck that runs direct damage, be it Burn, Goyf Sligh or Red Treshhold is a bad matchup for Rock. This card is sometimes played to make those matches better.
5.3) My list ‘TopRock’:
You’re probably wondering why it’s called TopRock. The deck (ab)uses Sensei’s Divining Top to find the right cards at the right time. Together with Life from the Loam you can see up to 9 cards every turn if you are desperate to dig. Having come up with this list after an extensive amount of testing we also consider it to be at the ‘top’ of all Rock decks.
Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Jotun grunt
3x Shriekmaw
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker
Artifacts/Enchantments:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
Sorcery/Instant:
4x StP
4x Vindicate
4x Thoughtseize
3x Life from the Loam
Land:
1x Volraths Stronghold
3x Mishra's factory
4x Windswepth Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wasteland
1x Savannah
2x bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
Sideboard:
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Duress
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
6) Match-ups:
Affinity:
Can be considered as an agro deck. Now with latest additions of Shards of Alar this deck might start to play some counter, mainly Force of Will. Kill the key creatures like Ravager followed by the one they put all those Modular counters on. Master of Etherium might see play as well, if it does, kill it as well since it will be rather big. Ethersworn Cannonist doesn’t slow you down a lot as it does against other decks.
Agro- loam:
This match up differs depending on their build. It gets more difficult when they play a version that runs maindeck removal like Swords to Plowshares or the more common one, Terminate. When they aren’t running any the early/mid game belongs to you. Plenty of removal on your side for their limited amount of creatures while you keep enough damage going or outdraw them with a Confidant. Jotun Grunt is what makes this match up easy. They can’t start drawing cards because they’ll lose either the loam or the lands to your Grunt. The normal strategy is applying as much pressure as you can. Once they do get their engine going for a while you will most likely lose. The chances to live through such card advantage will be hard. In case they play Confidant, make sure you kill it.
Aluren:
It’s a combo deck so play against it like you would against other combo. Find their weakness and exploit it. The deck revolves around Aluren so all you have to do is avoid that hitting play or destroying it when it does hit play. Thoughtseize it away! Once you know they don’t have an Aluren in their hand keep your Thoughtseize behind to play it after a Raven Familiar or any other search card. If they topdeck it, bad luck for you. After sideboard you’ll have Krosan Grip to hit Aluren after it comes into play. Kill it as soon as you get priority. They usually have Cabal Therapy now so don’t rely on it to much unless you can keep one floating on the top of your library with a SDT.
Keeping a Deed on the board in advance is good but not game winning. Once they see this they’ll hold back, find a Chain of Vapor to play at your EOT and then go off. It’s still the right play to do for you since it will buy you time. Remember to keep 4 mana open when you do have a Deed in play.
The third option is trying to keep them of their green mana. They play 3 colours so a lot of non-basic lands. Aim your creature removal at Wall of Roots or Birds of while destroying their green mana with Wasteland/Vindicate. I found this to be the most effective strategy.
Burn:
Sometimes you come across a guy who didn’t prepare, didn’t have much cash or just likes playing straight burn. The trick here is to race it. Goyfs, Grunts, even casting StP on your own creatures. Watch out for taking to much damage from yourself. Fetch to basics to avoid Price of Progress. There’s no need to run out a lot of land anyway, it won’t improve the match. Generally an auto-loss for the Rock player if they don’t run lots of discard.
BWG Rock:
Let’s consider this a mirror. There are lots of different lists and I can’t go over them all. The games will be long, playing creatures, seeing them getting removed or you playing the removal on his creatures. Confidant and SDT are the best cards here. There’s no need to hold back in dropping a creature on the board when you are scared of it being removed. Just make sure you play the bait first. If you have a Tarmogoyf and a Confidant, drop the Goyf first. Also, don’t be dropping multiple creatures unless you are certain they won’t get killed by Deed. The card advantage of that will ruin you.
Your mana development is probably the most important thing in this mirror. Feel free to take a hit from a Tarmogoyf to play a Life from the Loam on some land. This deck has no reach except creatures so stabilising at 1 life can still give you the victory. Also fetch one basic Forest at least, preferable 2 to avoid Vindicate combined with Wasteland. The basic Plains or Swamp isn’t so needed if you have a Life from the Loam. It’s all about little advantages and tight play.
Enchantress:
To be tested.
Eva-green:
For me this deck can be considered the same as Sui black. The only difference is that they splash green for Tarmogoyf with some more sideboard options. The hand disruption is usually bad news, in this case it isn’t. They never seem to manage to put enough pressure on the table to get past the remaining removal still lurking in the remainders of your hand or the top of your library. Fetch for basics, like you should against any deck with Wasteland at the start, build some mana while keeping creatures from attacking you. Once they depleted their hand or it’s filled with useless cards like Dark Ritual you win..
Fish (Fearie Stompy):
To be tested.
Goblins:
About average. Rock plays a lot of removal to survive for a while. Deed isn’t as great here as many will claim because it often arrives to slow. Matron and Ringleader are key cards on their side, try grabbing them with Thoughtseize if you can. Since most goblin decks run 3 colors they have removed Rishidan Port from their list, fetch to basic land whenever you can, kill their biggest threats while dropping some creatures of your own to start beating.
Goyf Sligh:
A bad match up. Not only can they burn you like pure burn does, they also have creatures! The tactic against burn is racing back. In this case you can’t because they have creatures on the board. Dealing with them takes time. I still have to win myself a match during a tournament against this deck.
Ichorid:
Pernicious Deed helps to clean the tokens away if you can ever play it. Jotun Grunt can be good before or right after they went mayhem. After sideboard you should have 4 or more graveyard hate cards, feel free to mulligan madly for these, the rest will follow soon. Make sure to test this match so you know what to do.
MUC:
This hurts big time. Depends on the version but just like standstill this is pure control against Board control. MUC doesn’t attack with lands so no good use of Wasteland. The biggest issue is that their creatures have some evasion. Morphling being the most commonly used just evades every removal bar Deed. Meloku leaves behind a bunch of tokens, use Deed. Vedalken Shackles, Deed or Vindicate. What about Plow?! As good as useless.
Manland are king here, along with Dark Confidant. Try playing the aggressor because mid and late game they’ll have to much control. Drop threats as soon as you can, without running into Force Spike.
Painter’s Servant/Grindstone:
Not yet tested.
Pikula:
This deck doesn’t see much play anymore. Just adding it as a reference in case you do fear it.
The deck is fast hand disruption, some land destruction then drop a threat, winning the game before the opponent can stabilise. Can’t do much to stop the first except dropping a top, drawing the cards instead of holding them. The land destruction is stopped by keeping fetches uncracked until you need it and Loam. Loaming two fetchland back to your hand is usually enough to disrupt that plan from them. As for that threat, if it’s not a Confidant you can let it live, taking the damage for a few turns while you build.
Standstill:
At first I thought this would be a bad match up as well since it’s pure control against board control. Much to my own surprise this doesn’t seem to be true if played well. Card advantage is a key factor here so make sure to bait first before dropping a Confidant. Also, if you decided to play manland try to keep it hidden as long as you can. If you do it at the right time they might have to break their own Standstill. Destroy Crucible of Worlds or pluck it from their hand if you can. Keeping a Deed in play doesn’t allow them to drop Standstill, trapping some useless cards in their hand while stopping them from getting card advantage.
Stax:
Make sure you fetch to basics and keep some land behind combined with a loam to rebuild your board after an Armageddon. Deed kills the board, mainly theirs. In the meanwhile Vindicate kills the most anoying cards. They have no real card advantage so you can win by quality of your cards or just drawing more with a Confidant. Misplays here can cost you the game due to that. I also wouldn’t advice putting more than 4 land in play out of fear for Armageddon. The most troublesome card they have is Magus of the Tabernacle, mainly because it’s a 2/6. When combined with Ghostly Prison you’ll have to pay 6 mana every turn to even get damage through, try to kill Magus instead.
Survival:
Keep in mind that this is a generalisation of Survival, there are several different versions. They all work around one card though, Survival of the Fittest, so it can be considered a combo deck in this aspect. It also strives to be viable when not having a Survival in play, making it an aggressive deck. When you force it to play as a creature deck you have a better chance to win. Their creatures are weaker than yours because theirs all have a specific utility to be tutored up. Keep your removal for those that might pose a problem.
So the goal is to destroy that Survival. You can do this by getting it with a Thoughtseize, leaving them the option to topdeck it. Playing Pernicious Deed in advance is the second best. Sometimes even better than Thoughtseize since no topdecking is saving them. The average list only plays one maybe two creatures to get rid of an enchantment, usually Harmonic Sliver. Vindicate is the third option, being a sorcery this is the worst. They can wait long enough to drop a Survival, get some action going before passing the turn. Also deed has it’s flaws because you will use it in reaction to the first activation of Survival. The problem here is that they can get a Witness to grab their survival back. Grunt can remove their card advantage like Squee, Genesis and Anger
TES/IggyPOP/FetchlandTendrils/Doomsday/AdN:
You lose game1 most of the time. With only a small amount of hand disruption and not enough pressure it’s heavily in their favor. You can win this game when they go for Empty the Warrens and you have a Deed. Game2 is much better if you have a sideboard against combo. Thorn of Amethyst slows them down, often giving you the time to attack enough or finding a second Thorn. Making correct mulligans will win games.
Treshhold:
It depends on the third color. In general it’s a match in your favor once it goes into mid/late game, around 60-40. Against White ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh it’s the easiest to get into mid/late game since their plows will give you some extra life to use as a buffer. Black is also favorable as long as you make sure that no Confidant remains in play. Red ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the hardest, mostly because they have the ability to burn you even during the late game when their creatures can’t come through. Try and take as few damage as you can as early as you can, even sacrificing creatures. You play to much removal for them to handle eventually.
Their best chance to beat you is Counterbalance. Try keeping track of the cantrips they played, do they know what’s on the top of the library, is it likely for something of 3 to be lying there. Play a Deed in advance since they can’t remove it except Tyragon Predator in some lists. Once they have something of 2 and 3 floating your only option is Tombstalker/Shriekmaw. Manland isn’t good enough to start beating. If you know they have to many counters already alongside those 2 floating on top, just scoop. It’s not worth wasting time here.
On a sidenote, lots of Treshhold players side out Daze after they notice that you keep 1 mana open. Keep that in mind during game2 and 3 that you might not have to slow your own game down to play around Daze.
Last edited by citanul; 02-08-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Attempting to fix...
Complaints about a thread should be addressed to a mod via PM.
-PR
It's a pity, that you only focus on the aggro version and on your posted version of the deck. The more controllish version would be more interesting imo, at least deserves mentioning.
What about Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonize, Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer interaction, Wall of Blossoms, ... the list goes on. You didn't even mention those cards and synergies.
Cabal Therapy isn't obviously played in an aggro deck.
Generally I think The Rock should focus more on card advantage, synergy and mid-range control, instead of start beating with undercosted 2-mana fatties on turn 2. Unfortunetaly, it tends to be more Zooish then Rockish... (at least your list).
Nice matchup analysis, though I don't get it, why you mention Aluren.
Probably in his metagame Aluren is a mu often played. It is in my metagame too, it always have 2 or more player over the entire tournament, someone playing Recruiter, someone not...
3p1c h0rs3!!
Grunt doesn't play nice with Goyf or Tombstalker. Stalker doesn't play nice with Goyf and Grunt. I'd possibly consider other beats. Loam helps to alleviate this, but I think that Grunt is still very meh.
Deeds with Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Grunt lacks synergy.
Dark Confidant with Stalker also don't play nice even if you play Top which seems lame to do anyways.
I think focusing a direction with this version of The Rock will help you out a lot. Either use Confidant, Goyf, Ascetic/Finks and maybe Teeg orgo for a big fatty list with stuff like BoP (to ramp mana), Stalker, Heirarch/Baloth, and maybe Garruk.
I think that Witness and Garruk deserve consideration. Basically, I think that you'll be happier having a more synergistic deck whether you go for a heavy control with big beats or a more aggro build.
What ever happened to Veteran Explorers? People are playing less and less basics which makes it good.
I thought that MORE basics were being played due to the popularity of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. Maybe I'm wrong. VE has more synergy than BoP with blocking and with Deeds. Only problem is that it can really suck against some decks more than it helps you. Against some decks, it doesn't do anything, against others, it is a one sided free 2 lands. In the OP's post, he only runs 4 basics, so that'd suck, but if you were to include it, I'd imagine you'd change your lands.Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin
I am only human and might have missed cards or not written parts that might have been important. That’s why at the start of the post I say:It's a pity, that you only focus on the aggro version and on your posted version of the deck. The more controllish version would be more interesting imo, at least deserves mentioning.
What about Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonize, Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer interaction, Wall of Blossoms, ... the list goes on. You didn't even mention those cards and synergies.
Cabal Therapy isn't obviously played in an aggro deck.
“Of course, I am not an all knowing Guru. In case you have an idea to add to this post or just find something blatantly wrong, feel free to PM me about it.”
I’ll make sure to add those cards under point 4.2 and see what I can do for control rock, maybe add a separate part for it.
That’s more of a discussion of agro vs control build. We found that the important turn in Legacy is one turn earlier than it used to be. Therefore we made sure the presence of The Rock was already being felt in those early turns instead of just using them to ramp up mana with utility creatures. You’ll have a better match up against control decks with a control Rock at the expense of your agro match up.Generally I think The Rock should focus more on card advantage, synergy and mid-range control, instead of start beating with undercosted 2-mana fatties on turn 2. Unfortunetaly, it tends to be more Zooish then Rockish... (at least your list).
As Idraleo has said, it’s played in my metagame. I also added decks not being played here just for reference. Again, if you feel a certain part is missing or obsolete, just PM me about it.Nice matchup analysis, though I don't get it, why you mention Aluren.
Even though the list seems to have a lot of bad synergies it runs like a well oiled machine. All of the bad synergies you mentioned are true but not so relevant. I’ll be splitting your response up in If you have a Grunt and a Tarmogoyf in play at the same time you can still keep the Tarmogoyf big. It only needs 1 card of a type in any graveyard while you decide which cards go away with Grunt or when to let him die. The same goes for Tombstalker, if you have one in your hand while wanting to play it you shouldn’t let the Grunt live.
I agree on Dark Confidant being bad if you reveal a Tombstalker, I get that remark a lot. I even play 3 Shriekmaw over Smother while it would do me 3 extra damage. Yet out of all the tournament matches I played I have only died from Confidant doing me damage once. That specific match was against Goyf Sligh and I revealed a Tarmogoyf.
There’s a reason we called it TopRock, that card is just insane. Rock barely has any form of card draw, Top is just what it needed. The deck manipulation it gives makes sure that every card that you do draw is a good one. Rock is also a hybrid deck, adjusting itself to the board and the deck that your opponent plays. This means that there will be wrong cards at wrong times on the top of your deck. With Top you can pick the right or best one and reshuffle if you want others.even if you play Top which seems lame to do anyways.
I’m rather happy with the list that I am playing right now, getting consistent results. Witness certainly deserves a spot, we even tested it. You would cut the Grunts for it I guess, seeing as that would have bad synergy as well. Another person in my team does play with Witness but has been getting worse results. Witness in the agro build can be useless, especially with lots of graveyard hate going around in my metagame.I think focusing a direction with this version of The Rock will help you out a lot. Either use Confidant, Goyf, Ascetic/Finks and maybe Teeg or go for a big fatty list with stuff like BoP (to ramp mana), Stalker, Heirarch/Baloth, and maybe Garruk.
I think that Witness and Garruk deserve consideration. Basically, I think that you'll be happier having a more synergistic deck whether you go for a heavy control with big beats or a more aggro build.
Garruk hasn’t been tested yet. The card has proven it’s worth in Type2 but still has to do so in Legacy. When in a bad board position this card just dies to creatures, making you lose card advantage. That means that this card is only worth playing when your board can handle it, making it a ‘win more’ card.
Good opening post!
Has Raven's Crime been tested? It's an absolute powerhouse, especially with Loam.
I also think Gigapede and Worm Harvest are the best finishers for this archetype.
Thanks.
Raven's Crime has been tested. In the late game it's indeed a great card, especially against control, combo or burn. The problem we had with Raven's Crime was that the opponent got to choose what card he discards. Against controller it doesn't matter since you have the time to keep on casting it but combo just discards some random one, still killing you. The preference went to a discard spell that allowed you to choose the card. Raven's Crime is more for a control build of Rock, at it's best a sideboard card over Duress.
Gigapede has also been tested, Worm Harvest hasn't. The problem with Gigapede was that it kept on costing me mana and has a to fragile body, often being chump blocked to death. Having to cast it every turn while manipulating your deck became very mana intensive. If any of those two cards will be added it will be in the spot of Tombstalker or Shriekmaw since you don't want to exagerate with high casting cost cards.
I can't seem to be able to edit my main post. I changed it, never went through, if I click edit now it shows me no text. When previewing changes made it also just jumps to an empty textbox. Does the change need an approval of any kind or did I do something wrong?
Last edited by citanul; 10-31-2008 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Typing error
What about Grave-Shell Scarab? He's pretty awesome at evading deed, and most other removal while being able to come back quite easily. :D
Probably Raven' s Crime could be supported as well into decklists who splashes U for Intuition, to get faster Loam + cycling land+ Raven's Crime. In those case it coul be a nice shot, but it obv slows the gameplan, making it more suitable for controllish version that for those who run something near to Funkbrew as citanul did.
3p1c h0rs3!!
This is a misleading statement whether or not you intend it to be. Bob doesn't have to kill you to negatively effect your chances of winning. If he drops you to 6 off a shriekmaw and your opponent has a siege-gang in play, you probably just lost the game. In the past I've tried to run decks like yours and always wanted a solid life-gain creature. Unfortunately, they are all subpar, and I worry that the Rock just can't support confidant.
That' s true if you don' t pack any life gain card such as citanul did. If some Baloth/Hierarch/Finks/Jitte is maindecked, also remembering that most of the times SDT is on the board, Confidant is the best way to did card advantage and simoultaneously don' t get plenty of creatures.
3p1c h0rs3!!
Useable in Control Rock. It does indeed come back easily and evades removal. With Tarmogoyf running rampant now I think that the 4/4 body might be to small to compete with Gigapede.What about Grave-Shell Scarab? He's pretty awesome at evading deed, and most other removal while being able to come back quite easily. :D
I did keep those things in mind. 5 cards in my deck will hit me for 5 or more damage with Confidant. It's 5% chance to hit a Shriekmaw (3/60) and 3.33% chance to hit a Tombstalker (2/60). Combined that is 8.33% chance to have a bad reveal. On the other hand you run 5% of your deck to stop this from happening (3 SDT's). The first trigger of Confidant can happen after having drawn a minimum of 8 cards when on the play. To calculate that by having a Confidant with those 8 and not having a SDT I'll have to do some research, it has been to long since I did such stuff.This is a misleading statement whether or not you intend it to be. Bob doesn't have to kill you to negatively effect your chances of winning. If he drops you to 6 off a shriekmaw and your opponent has a siege-gang in play, you probably just lost the game. In the past I've tried to run decks like yours and always wanted a solid life-gain creature. Unfortunately, they are all subpar, and I worry that the Rock just can't support confidant.
I don't agree in saying that Rock can't support Confidant. There are plenty of decent cards giving you life, they don't have to be a creature, Jitte being the best example.
Apparently I will not be able to edit my original topic so I'll add extra content in this post, hoping I can keep on editing this post.
Build: Agro vs. Control
There are a lot of different lists for the Rock, all having something in common. The used categories to divide these lists are Agro and Control. The lists differ so much that even the game plan and sometimes the way to achieve victory is different. I’ll be talking about the categories, what their upsides/downsides are and the eventual way of winning.
The thing we all strive for is to make a hybrid between a Control and an Agro build, making it a deck with a great early, mid and late game.
Control
Control uses bigger mana spells. To be able to cast such big spells a lot of mana acceleration is needed. Most commonly used cards for this are Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder and to a lesser extend Veteran Explorer, Yavimaya Elder. Having a higher curve also means they’ll be taking longer to gain control over the board, to get to that point they have to play ways to slow down the opponent. This is usually done with multi-use creatures and extra hand disruption.
The general game plan for a control build is to gain card advantage over the opponent while playing several cards that are of better quality than the opponent. Sort of a mix of quantity and quality. A great example for this is Pernicious Deed. Not only can it generate lots of card advantage, it’s also able to deal with the best cards of your opponent. After achieving such card advantage with a good board position they drop a big creature to finish the game.
Thanks to playing more main deck hand disruption like Cabal Therapy the combo match up is better. Trying to generate more card advantage does several things. The most important is getting enough answers to disrupt or even stop your opponents game plan. The other one is that the deck is more forgiving towards play errors, supplying you with another a new answer anyway.
Cards you’ll find in most control but not plenty of agro lists:
Loxodon Hierarch, Cabal Therapy, Wall of Blossoms, Living Wish, Genesis.
Agro
Agro has grown from the control build with time, taking several key cards, removing the rest to add undercosted creatures. The result are decks that can apply fast pressure, combining it with spot removal to clear a path but also a deck that has a decent mid/late game. The cards that are usually removed are big mana spells, hand disruption and mana accelerators. But these big spells are usually the way that Rock generates card advantage resulting in agro builds having less ways to do so.
To combat the loss of this ability agro builds try to make every card they draw a good card, often losing some flexibility in the process. The trick in these builds is making every card have a use in a broad variety of matches and during every part of the game. Vindicate is a perfect example of this although it’s not unique to agro builds. Vindicate can kill any targetable permanent in play (except indestructible) making it a card that can adapt to different game plans.
The biggest advantage of an agro build is giving your opponent little time to (re)build his board. Other agro decks like Zoo also does this but agro Rock has a better mid/late game.
Agro mainly focuses on controlling the board, making match ups revolving around non-permanents worse than before.
Cards you’ll find in most agro but not plenty of control lists:
Jotun Grunt, Call of the Herd, Hymn to Tourach
Addition to Section 4.2
Creatures:
Kitchen Finks: The persist is what makes this card worth playing. Gaining you 4 life while generating a form of card advantage. You can chump block with it twice, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and let it live through some removal. Often found in a more control build.
Loxodon Hierarch: When Rock started using white as a third color this card replaced Ravenous Baloth. For almost the same mana cost you get the same effect but faster. Regenerating all your creatures can be considered a bonus. When compared to Tarmogoyf, the P/T of this card is bad for it’s casting cost. Played in control build.
Troll Ascetic: Can’t be targeted by your opponent while having the ability to regenerate. A hard creature to get rid of is the least you can say. A weak body compared to other options available. Can either be played in control or agro build but barely sees play these days. Keeping 1G open all the time doesn’t feel good to most players.
Wall of Blossoms: Basicly a cantrip that stops an attacker. This card has been in lists since the existence of Rock. If you want to have a better match against agro you should consider this. Tarmogoyfs tend to trump Wall of Blossoms but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other cards to block.
Veteran Explorer: Now that most metagames have shifted to playing several basics this card has gotten the axe. It was used to gain fast mana to cast bigger creatures than the opponent. Was also a great creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy.
Gigapede: Just like Troll Ascetic, this is a hard card to get rid of. Having a power of 6 it kills as good as every creature to see play. The 1 toughness makes it very weak, often just resulting in trades. That’s where the second part comes in handy, this one returns to your hand if you only discard a card. Due to this being a strain on your mana it mostly sees play in control builds.
Discard:
Raven’s Crime: When combined with Life from the Loam this card can be a powerhouse. Also an outlet for excess land.
Utiliity:
Unearth: Brings back cards that you hoped not to be death. The possibility to cycle this card when it would be useless makes it worth playing.
Living Wish: At the cost of some tempo you can either have a creature/land toolbox at your disposal or grab a kill. This card is mostly played in a control build since agro doesn’t want to spend the extra 2 mana.
Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.
Harmonize: A card draw spell in green is pretty Uncommon. Mostly played in control build but several agro lists do run it to keep their threats coming.
Recurring Nightmare: It brings back any creature back from the death if you are willing to sacrifice another. Returning it to your hand makes it reusable as many times as you want/can. In combination with cards that have a CiP effect this Nightmare can generate lots of card advantage.
Worm Harvest: A great finisher against plenty of decks. Combined with Life from the Loam you can keep on Harvesting Wurms. Also a great outlet for excess land.
Haunting Echoes: Some control lists use this card to make sure they win the game. Often only played as a single copy.
Just decided to change BG to BWG rock, because of Hierarch. Never noticed how better it was then Baloth, since I run Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy.
I think Recurring Nightmare should be run, as a 1 or 2 of. It is great bringing back: witness (grabs any car you want), Hierarch, Finks (wich is great to sacrifice to it also). It gives you so much card advantage, it's ridiculous.
Ok, maybe my statement was a tad strong. What I really meant was that I don't think confidant is the best choice in traditional Rock. The problem with creatures as sources of life gain is that they rarely give you more life than they take from you, and usually cost too much mana (hierarch and baloth) to be effective. Kitchen finks, as a few ppl have mentioned, are the best option, but in my testing haven't performed all that well.
Jitte is better at recouping life than any creature, but adding that many low-cost permanents to the deck will make deed very two-sided, which is not what you want when you sink 7 mana into it. Some degree of dissynergy is fine (goyf+deed, and even goyf+tombstalker), but there has to be a line where you can't justify deed anymore.
I dont think that there is any need for life-gaining creatures in this deck.
The others are just way better. Tombstalker is a bomb(it evades CB and has evasion.)
As for confidant..most of the time ur Confidant will get destroyed before u can even reveal a card. And if it doesn't u will most likely win due to cardadvantage. Also SDT is very nice,it limits ur dmge taken by confi,and filters your deck combined with fetchlands to find answers/threats.
About the sideboard.. what cards are best?And tormod's crypt/leyline?
You could play Phyrexian Arena over Confidant if you desire. It does cost one more and requires more black but since you speak of 'Traditional' Rock I assume you'll be playing Birds of Paradise anyway. In a control build it might not be opportune to play Confidant since the average CC of a card is higher while the cards that gain you life are limited.Ok, maybe my statement was a tad strong. What I really meant was that I don't think confidant is the best choice in traditional Rock. The problem with creatures as sources of life gain is that they rarely give you more life than they take from you, and usually cost too much mana (hierarch and baloth) to be effective. Kitchen finks, as a few ppl have mentioned, are the best option, but in my testing haven't performed all that well.
Jitte is better at recouping life than any creature, but adding that many low-cost permanents to the deck will make deed very two-sided, which is not what you want when you sink 7 mana into it. Some degree of dissynergy is fine (goyf+deed, and even goyf+tombstalker), but there has to be a line where you can't justify deed anymore.
I don't get it why people talk about dissynergy. If you have a creature equipped with a Jitte and are still forced to blow up a Deed then your opponent has lost a great deal of good cards as well. Same goes for every example brought up in the past.
Sideboard is mostly adjusted to your metagame. Krosan Grip should have a place in there at least. Crypt vs. Leyline is to your own preference, I opted for Crypt since the CC is lower (Confidant) and I can keep my opening 7 even if it is without any sideboarded hate while beign able to cast it if I do draw that hate. Also, Crypt is better against Agro-Loam. Else they just Burning Wish to Reverent Silence, destroying your Leyline(s). Crypt can just stay in your hand and come down when you want it to.About the sideboard.. what cards are best?And tormod's crypt/leyline?
I do see the benefits for Leyline, Pithing Needle has no effect on it, it comes down even before you get a turn. Can't save Loam by cycling a card like they can with Crypt.
I realize I've said this in about every Rock thread, but I really feel strongly about this:
Veteran Explorer is the nuts in Rock. Turn one explorer, turn two swing for 1, therapy you, flashback, hymn you is the god-damns. It's everything Birds wanted to be and more. It doesn't cost you a card like moxen, and with so few basics being run today, can net you card advantage outside of therapy, and by either cabal'in your opponent or chump blocking, helps with what the rock wants to do: get you into the mid-game, where your effects like Deed and your card advantage like witness, genesis, or loam can come into play without costing you life while you set it up.
Explorer Pros:
Accelerates you 2 turns.
Gets you out of blood-moon/back to basics situations via therapy or blocking.
Fixes your mana permanantly, giving you wasteland-proof access to all your colors.
Works insanely well with Therapy, and moderatly so with deed, often allowing you to lay a threat post-deed.
Mana is available immediately for Hymn/Deed/Goyf/Loam if you have therapy in the yard, which is much more likely with loam.
Explorer Cons:
Has to block or pay for therapy flashback to be good, so often just a 1/1 vs combo if you dont have therapy.
Nets your opponent basics, which sucks against some decks such as GOBLINS, 2c/CB Thresh, UW(x) Landstil, Loam control, and MWC, ect. Sometimes irrelevant against decks like 4c thresh, 4/5c survival, 4c Landstill, (as they often fetch basics if they see aggro-control) and combo decks other than solidarity.
Explorer's probably more fitting in decks that can really abuse the extra mana and have a better midgame plan such as wish, loam, recursion, ect. Metagame dependent as well (we have a lot of combo, 4c thresh, and Dragon Stompy in Ohio)
Last edited by Media314r8; 11-02-2008 at 04:18 AM.
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