Teeg is usually better in those MU's where you want Meddling Mage as Teeg can shut down multiple problematic cards at once while Mage only denies one of them. For example, agains Landstill you don't want them to resolve Wrath, Humility or EE - or any combination thereof.
EDIT
@crz87: It seems that your meta contains next to no combo, am I right? Or are you just crossing your fingers so that you won't get paired against it? :D
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
If we go Spore Frog, why don't simply run instead Children of Korlis?
It's another out to Combo.
Children of Korlis doesn't save you from a lethal attack.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Post-M10, does this deck lose anything? Becuase I'm running Bant Aggro in Standard, I really want to use my Hierarchs in a Legacy deck and this one seemed like the most fun; Survival anything is sweetsauce.
@ NC: Allright, that's a good point...
Cards get so much worse when people tell me how they actually work...
@ Arsenal: Actually not. Qasali Pridemage gets weakened a bit, but it's not like he was there for combat tricks only.
Finally, after waiting what felt like years, I got my cards. Stupid UPS and needing to be 21 years old to sign for the package. Anyway, I hope to get testing soon.
Qasali Pridemage is still a house. Him killing a creature and then blowing up an artifact/enchantment hardly happened enough to even consider trimming his numbers down. He can still fog for a turn against a Goyf and blow up something so don't worry about it.
Also, crz87, tell me how the Dazes are working out. As I said, I wanted some additional counters as well, but I have just added Disrupts to the board for that. I still need to thoroughly test Daze.
This is my up to date list as I'm running it right now.
// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Forest (4)
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [US] Plains (3)
// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [US] Gilded Drake
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
As you can see I went down to 19 land and added a 3rd ponder. I found myself getting flooded a little too often.
Also I'm testing out glen elendra out as a mb slot. Can't say much about it. If you dont like it then you can switch back to the 2nd clique or 2nd pridemage.
I only play 1 clique because I feel its best at fightning control decks which aren't that much around in my meta.
Overal im quite satisfied with this list! @SB. I just bring a binder with alot of cards and I make a sb at the spot to what I think will be showwing up.
Jak can you add it to the openingspost as my list.
glen elendra seems way to expansive to be effective. We do not create a whole lot of mana like other survival builds can with Rofellos, thus expensive cards should be affecting the board the minute they come in to play. Glen elendra takes 5 mana to be safe. Mostly I get a hard time getting 4 mana together.
Same goes for daze actually. We give up a turn by returning an island. Don't think I'm up to that, especially in the early game. There I like to hava mana in play, not in my hand.
Currently playing and testing:
Faerie Stompy
Bant Survival
UW Tempo
Zoo
So here's my tournament report on Saturday. We had a total of 14 players.
Jeff - UGR Coatl Gro
Drew - Imperial Painter
Lil' Chris - White Weenies
Joey - RGw Zoo
Ted - Deadguy (Nyxathid)
Brian - Geddon Stax
Chris - Nassif's Countertop
Will - White Weenie
??? - Black Disruption
Dan - RGw Zoo
David - Aggro Loam
Chris Zhou (me) - Survival Bant
Here's my list.
Bant Survival:
19 Lands
2 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures: 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gilded Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Trygon Predator
1 Anger
1 Squee
Permission: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
Card Advantage: 10
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
Sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Snare
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Genesis
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mind Harness (against aggro-loam, Coatl, vore, goyf, crushers)
Match 1 - Joey with RGw Zoo
Game 1: He led with an aggressive T1 Kird Ape and a couple of burn but a Vendillion Clique revealed that he had been drawing lands (3 lands in hand). I swing in with 5/3 double exalted Clique and beat for a turn before she was burnt down. He landed Pridmage and appliyed more beats from Exalted Kird Ape. I followed up with my own Pridemage which was even more Exalted from the Hierarchs (a 5/5). We both never drew Goyfs and I won the first game through Exalted beatdown while Swording his key creatures and countering burns with Sprites. Sprite is MVP against Zoo, stopping bolts + swords while allowing you to play yours.
Game 2: SB: -1 Pridemage, -1 Trygon, -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Tradewind Rider, -1 Drake +2 Spell Snare, +2 Mind Harness, +1 Rhox War Monk.
He had no idea I was playing Survival but I assumed he knew I was playing it. I kept a fishy hand of 3 Survival, 1 Hierarch, 1 Sprite, 1 Brainstorm 1 Land. I drew a land and played out Sprite then Survival pitching Sprite to get the engine going. Joey says "That's not Bant!" I replied, "It is, Legacy Bant :P". The game ended shortly when I got double RWM (1 sideboarded) out and beat him while Lifelinking 10 life a turn. I think he was laughing at the fact I got multiple hasty goyfs out as well in one turn.
2-0-0
Match 2 - Ted with Deadguy
Game 1: I led with Noble Hierarch and kept a Thresh-ish hand with no Survival and a Brainstorm and land-heavy hand. I knew he was playing Deadguy and the matchup is not pretty with 4 Wastes, 4 Sinkholes, 4 Vindicates.
He led with Turn 1 Thoughtseize grabbing FOW and T2 Nantuko Shade. I took some damamge from Shade for the couple of turn while I dropped Sprite and countered another Seize while applying pressure and beating. He gets down a Tombstalker eventually while I upload Survival and EOT tutored out:
Squee/Anger/TW-Rider and played out more Noble Hierarch. TW-Rider is a house against Deadguy/Eva, saving your permanents from Vindcate while creating huge tempo losses. He tried swinging in with 2 Nyxathid, Tombstalker and Shade while I chumped Shade with E Witness, blocked Nyxathid with Goyfs and bounced Tombstalker. I proceed to beatdown with 3 Goyfs.
Game 2: SB: +2 Spell Snare + 1 Genesis - 1 Pridemage - 1 Clique -1 Trygon Predator. He opened with T1 Pithing Needle. I had FOW + Brainstorm + Hierarch + Daze and I decided not to FOW since I will end up risking a very weak hand if I lost Brainstorm. I figured I can play without Survival since this deck functions good even without Survival but I did hit myself in the head for boarding out all my artifact/enchantment destruction since I figured Deadguy doesn't run either. Forgot about Needle.
He played a Hyppie which got Dazed. The game dragged on really slow and I landed a 4/5 Goyf that was proceeding to beat. He landed a Tombstalker and we had stallmates (no Hierarch). I was seriously contemplating on playing Survival and FOWing it to make Goyf 5/6 but decided not to give myself a possible 3 for 1 if he killed Goyf. So the game dragged on and got scary when he landed Nyxathid (6/6) and I played out another Goyf. The game never really got anywhere because we were both stalling but because Game 1 took too long, we had to finish up in 5 rounds. He could not beat past my defense of 1 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Goyfs (he couldn't swing in with Tombstalker because he was at 3 life and would die when I swing back in).
4-0-0
Match 3 - Drawed with Dan with RGw Zoo into Top4
Match 4 - Dan with RGw Zoo
Had to play against Zoo again, but to be honest, I am confident with the matchup. Didn't turn out to be so. All I can say is Grim Lavamancer is fucking MVP.
Game 1: He drops a much more aggressive hand than Joey with Kird Ape + Nacatl + Bolt + Helix. I dazed a Thoctar and landed Goyf and Sworded creatures while stabilizing. He plays out Grim Lavamancer and proceeds to shrink Goyf while shocking me in the face. I eventually lost when I lost the tempo race and didn't draw Survival or any useful spells.
Game 2: same board plan as with Joey. Tradewind Rider is too slow and pointless against zoo while Drake is not as good since you can only get 5/4 Thoctars/Goyfs? Mind Harness does the same as Drake but better since it gets EVERY creature in their deck.
I kept an alright hand, 2 lands and a Brainstorm and 3 Goyfs. I never drew into a 3rd land in ages and made the game a ton more slowly than I could have played out. 3 Goyfs were actually crappy since his lavamancer was seriously putting them at 2/3 and within all his burn range. I never drew a Fetchland until 10 turns later and by then I played out Survival. He had pridemage in play but never sacced to kill Survival. I made sure I always had a creature to discard and grab EWitness just in case he destroys it. His mistake was underlooking Survival (I guess he was trying to be more aggressive and apply pressure) but I tutored out RWM for me to stabilize and multiple Goyfs. Although he did a great job in shrinking Goyfs.
Game 3: I'm confident with Zoo since RWM >>>> Zoo. I kept a really good hand against Zoo. I had Sprites + Spell Snare + Brainstorm + Hierarch + Goyf + Survival. I got a good early game by tempoing out with Sprite on Nacatl and dropping Survival. He learns his lessons and pridemages me and in response I tutored out Squee/Anger/EWitness to recur back my engine. I was really happy at this point figuring I had the game now with enough card advantage, but he dropped the surprise Crypt on his second mainphase and busted my Survival and all my tutored targest. Great, sad face. Next turn, I dropped a Goyf safe from burn range. He plays out Grim Lavamancer and a Goyf to stall. I played Mind Harness and he is staring down with 1 Grim Lavamancer against my field of two 4/5 Goyfs and a Sprite. Let me tell you this, to all Zoo players, Grim Lavamancer is freaking MVP. As I swung in with the 2 Goyfs, he Helixed my Goyf and while the spell is on the stack, removed 2 cards and shrunk my Goyfs to 2/3s (once again, I had no fetchlands in the yard despite playing 8 of them, so my goyfs were not standard 3/4).
He kills off my Goyf, forcing me to keep the mind harnessed one. That's fine with me. His board was empty the next couple of turns while I paid for Mind Harness upkeep (up to 5. I had an EWitness in hand to return Mind Harness again if I decided to change my targets by not paying the upkeep cost). Goyf never grew past 2/3. He got up to a 3/4 but instead of dealing with it, he proceeds to shock me 3 times with Lavamancer and finishing off with a barely lethal Fireblast. It was an amazing play, and really made me underestimate Lavamancer. I used to play Zoo and people were debating about him. He sure dies to everything, but if he doesn't, he does so much for the mana you invested in him. I swear that Dan plays Zoo without giving a thought to his Goyfs. He just shrinks his yard like there's no tomorrow.
To be honest, Survival Bant should not have lost to Zoo. Mind Harness in paper seems subpar but it really is a great card against Zoo and Aggro Loam. You get to steal all their creatures in Zoo (Thoctar, Wild Nacatl, Apes, Goyfs) and the fattest creatures in aggro-loam (crusher, vore, goyfs). Daze were in fact very good for me. The tempo lost is really not a problem since this deck isn't traditional survival i.e. it does not need insane amounts of mana off Rofellos to play out Evoke + Genesis. Daze really shines in the early games and together with Sprites, it's pretty disruptive. In addition, this deck has a hyrbid base of Thresh and Survival. You don't need mana in the early game as you're the control player, but you need to hit mana in the late game to play out multiple Goyfs. The advantage of Daze in the anger build is that you can recuperate the tempo lost from hasty Hierarchs. Daze + Hierarch is also much better than Daze in traditional Thresh builds. There were testing instances where Daze on Sinkhole/Vindicate is a hardcounter against Sinkhole/Vindicate.
I just feel uncomfortable playing 4 free counterspells. 7 has always been the magical number for me in Thresh builds, so I'm glad to have that. Too bad my games were mostly Zoo related, but I can tell you that RWM is much better in this list than Finks or Hierarch since you have anger and exalted, making him gain much more life throughout the whole game. Also, I pitched him EOT when I had FOW just in case I needed to counter a spell, so that backup play EOT to counter is another good play to maximize your options before you decide to drop him on your turn. The only downside is that he's blue (a goodside he pitches to FOW) but he dies to red blasts. I am trying to play 3 Ponders again, but I find that 3 Daze has been showing well for the deck. I'm pretty sure that the 3 Daze would make a huge difference against combo since any Survival decks still run into the problem on playing Survival T2 and locking ANT out T3 with Mage. T3 lockout is too slow even with FOW protection since they have Chant + Duress. Having 7 instead of 4 counterspell is key.
Overall, I liked Drake much more than Sower although I had 1 Sower side against Eva/Deadguy. To be perfectly honest, Tradewind Ride will see play in this deck. He has synergy with the anger build, and most importantly, this deck is really a legacy Bant Exalted deck. The exalted playstyle allows you to fully utilize Tradewind Rider, turning Noble Hierarchs mana-tapping ability for the early game into isochron-scepter-boomerangs in the late game. You don't need to be cute playing Drake + Tradewind Rider. Either piece is enough to lock out or gain a huge advantage from the opponent. Tradewind Rider is really good because it bounces ANY permanent, and it has a non-boltable body and flies. He dodges CB well and Deeds to some extent and he can bounce up CB and Dreandoughts and anything. I usually think of him as the 2nd pridemage/trygon in other bant Survival build. I only run 1 Pridemage since I prefer Trygon (there's enough exalted in the deck) but I need Pridemage for a non-combat instant-speed disenchant. TW-Rider fulfills that disenchant role as well, and he's a HUGE tempo card if you resolve him. You can block and bounce, and that's really annoying for the opponent.
I liked the 2 Spell Snares in the SB and might up it to 3. Mind Harness is MVP in a meta full of Aggro Loam + Zoo. Although Burrenton Forge Tender (BFT) is good against Gobs and Ichorid. These are definitely the SB choices to consider. This deck is so much fun to play and is highly customizable. I love the Dazes and there's still more tweaking to find a list that suits me best. Rafiq is highly recommended. Many games, I wished I had a Rafiq to finish the game. however, stupid T2 has made him into a $15 card.
Last edited by GGoober; 06-17-2009 at 01:17 PM.
Great your enjoying the deck as much as I do. Nice tournament report! keep up the good work.
Sweet report and I love the Daze list. The thing I love about Daze here is it gives us more protection to resolve Survival, makes combo much much easier, and it doesn't hurt us if we go turn one Hierarch. I'm trying to work them in, but I am hesitant to go below 20 lands.
Still dont understand you guys made me drop daze and now want to add it again. I really did not miss it yet. Sure you can protect survival. but you lost another turn. Simply play around opponents daze and if they Fow they lost 2 cards for 1 survival. your can easily win without survival.
I agree, I think 8 counterspells is more than enoug, if I would add anything, it would be more creatures for my survival because I have plenty of cases where I have survival in play, but no creatures to tutor with.
Could be my bad luck streak too...
Currently playing and testing:
Faerie Stompy
Bant Survival
UW Tempo
Zoo
That's one of the reasons I am running 2x Elvish Spirit Guide (-1 land, -1 creature). The other reasons being, obviously acceleration plus it gives you a strategic & psychological advantage as you can flash your flashers or pay for Daze seemingly out of nowhere and screw up their math.
Hmm, never thought of that, sounds interesting actually.
About Rhox War Monk I have to reluctantly say I'm starting to fall in love. He saved my ass twice yesterday against goblins and against sligh. Even without haste this guy is a house. I'm still in favour of using Kitchen Finks, but I'm appreciating him.
Currently playing and testing:
Faerie Stompy
Bant Survival
UW Tempo
Zoo
Hey everyone. I've been running a varient on Bant Survival, and have been testing quite a bit with good results. Here's my current list;
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
3x Tundra
4x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Brainstorm
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Aether Vial
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Meddling Mage
4x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian
1x Sower of Tempatoin
1x Genesis
1x Wonder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Force of Will
SB (Currently, I'm not in love with it right now)
3x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddok Teeg
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Rhox War Monk
3x Krosan Grip
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Tormod's Crypt
On to explaining card choices.
Aether Vial is a card that has always been love/hate with people when it comes to Survival. I would never run this deck without it, as it enables very solid plays, and works well as you can use it the end of their turn, or during their attack phase. It also allows me to assemble specific creatures under a Counterbalance or Standstill. I would advise you to attempt to find room for it in testing, and see how it works for you.
Oriss, Samite Guardian is certainly not a mainstream choice. Oriss is not the focus of the deck. It's there for an autowin (when combined with 3 mana and a Genesis) against Aggro Loam, Goblins (well, not a total win, but Oriss protects against Incinerators already), and a variety of decks that don't expect a chant-lock. If I use it game one, it's generally the first thing boarded out. I chose Meddling Mage over Teeg in the maindeck as Meddling Mage on Swords allows you to lock out a much wider range of decks.
I don't run Daze because I don't see this as an aggressive enough deck to merit it. I've tried it quite a few times, and each time, I was generally more pissed off about losing a hand drop than I was about what would happen if their spell resolved (in the early game...as that's the only time Daze is going to be useful). I'm fine with Force of Will and Spellstutter Sprite as my counter package, and they haven't let me down yet.
On to the board;
I think most of it's not contested. The only area where I'm hesitant are on the Crypts. I already have Meddling Mages, Teegs, and a STP to board against Ichorid, and while I could just not board in Teegs (which might be the right call), they always feel like there's something else that could be there. I've tried Blue Blasts, some more one ofs, but nothing seems to come to mind. Thoughts?
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
@Wak: I used to play Daze as well (refer to the very first arguments in the thread, and I got swayed to Sprites). The issue here is that Sprite is mainly used to counter removal (bolts/StP) and occasionally Brainstorm and Top, which you risk losing it via StP. Good players can put the CiP trigger on stack and kill it, making you lose a potential counter, although that means she baits a removal. Sprite is really good in the deck because you can tutor her up anytime and pitch her to FOW. She shines in the mid-game, much more than Daze. However, I feel that any Thresh-ish deck really needs Daze. The tempo loss isn't great for this deck because if you drop HIerarch game1, you will still have mana for T2 Survival.
Although sometimes I'm very tempted to replace Dazes with 3 Meddling Mage MD to shut off a potential card against other decks, and to give a much better T1 against ANT.
@Elvish Spirit Guide: I'm always a fan of her in ANY Survival build. I played Elf Survival for 2 months, and she's always the MVP. You can drop your land count down and run 2-3 of her. The reasons why she's good possibly in this deck (more testing needed).
-Instead of a land, she can pitch to Survival late game, being a more valuable topdeck
-She can provide mana against Daze, and she can provide mana to play a Hierarch under moon effects.
-She allows for more tutoring on a single turn when you're getting Survival pieces.
The only problem with her inclusion in this deck is that the deck is so tight on space (at least the anger builds).
I'm not sure about Vial in this deck since the only creatures that are worth vialing out would be Goyf + Sprite i.e. setting at 2. We do not run enough creatures to make this worthwhile. Maybe in a build with heavy 2cc creatures, this can be considered, but I would rather have a more focused build on Survival and Counterspells. You shouldn't fear control decks anyway because every piece you resolve is going to hurt.
@Daze
Yes, the deck can easily win without Survival, but Daze helps that too. I haven't really been hurt by the tempo loss but I haven't really been able to test it well enough.
@Not enough creatures
I really haven't had this problem. I mean, this deck does run 18 (non Daze list with 2 Ponder) non-land, non-creature cards but 6 of those are cantrips that get you to your creatures.
@Goblin Snowman
I like the list. I am not sure about Oriss since it looks really hard to get together. The only way you would ever set it up is when you have Survival in play so why not just get more Goyfs and War Monks and call it gg? I definitely want to try Vial since flash is one of the best things about the deck and adding it to Goyfs would be awesome.
I know. I've had the same thoughts about the card, but it gets around situations where you have no right to win frequently, and pitches to Survival anyway (which is fairly relevant...). If I were to cut them, I think I would add in the 4th War Monk (who is a porn star) and either a Gaddok Teeg, Loaming Shaman, or 4th Swords, going to 60 cards.
The reason Oriss is in there is because it wins you games where you have no other options. At anytime you get too far behind in the game where you feel like another Goyf or RWM isn't going to matter, against something like Ichorid, you can choose to just end the game and win right there. I win (very roughly) about 1/4 of my games based off 3 cards in my MD. So far, I'm going to keep testing with and without them.
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
This is true, but maybe if those 3 Oriss were something else like the 4th Sword or something else you wouldn't get in those situations. You seem to have an amazing aggro game with 3 War Monks and Vials that a clunky, instant win combo doesn't seem all that great especially if you need a card in play, a card in the GY and another in hand. I haven't had time to test but I'll certainly try because I am just theorizing.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)