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Thread: [DTW] Bant Survival

  1. #61
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Exactly why I run both predator and pridemage. Also I think this deck simply should use the little slowwer way without anger. Eot survival into clique take down removal.

    Own turn return squee, get rafiq or some other exalted dude or maybe not even needed and hit for 4+. Next turn you can flash something in aswell.

    I mostly survival up alot of hierarchs and develop my mana that way.

  2. #62
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Waikiki View Post
    Exactly why I run both predator and pridemage. Also I think this deck simply should use the little slowwer way without anger. Eot survival into clique take down removal.

    Own turn return squee, get rafiq or some other exalted dude or maybe not even needed and hit for 4+. Next turn you can flash something in aswell.

    I mostly survival up alot of hierarchs and develop my mana that way.
    It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.

  3. #63
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.
    You convinced me. What do you recommend cutting for Anger?

    -1 Tundra
    +1 Taiga

    +1 Anger
    +1 FtK

    Is what I'm thinking.

    @Waikiki. The Deathtouch dude would help in some of the same situations as Wonder. I am changing my list up a lot since I want to try adding red.

    I had trouble in testing yesterday against Pox and Aggro Loam. The things that killed me were DD, Hymn, Sinkhole, and Small Pox. I think adding Spell Snares to the board may help out and help the combo MU a bit.

  4. #64
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Di posted with compliments... we are doing something right.

    I have been thrashing MWS (not good I know) and I added anger, which is a lot of fun. I cut down Spellstutters to 3 as I rarely used the fourth one but they are MVP in locking out an opponent with survival.

    Which brings me to the question...

    Which do you guys seem to be doing more with the survival?

    Fetching faerie's and playing while the control.

    Or every turn Goyfs / whatever exalted you can play?

    I understand that it varies based on opponent, board position... yada yada yada.

    But there must be one that you favor.

  5. #65
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak. View Post
    You convinced me. What do you recommend cutting for Anger?

    -1 Tundra
    +1 Taiga

    +1 Anger
    +1 FtK

    Is what I'm thinking.

    @Waikiki. The Deathtouch dude would help in some of the same situations as Wonder. I am changing my list up a lot since I want to try adding red.

    I had trouble in testing yesterday against Pox and Aggro Loam. The things that killed me were DD, Hymn, Sinkhole, and Small Pox. I think adding Spell Snares to the board may help out and help the combo MU a bit.
    If you post an updated list, I can easily find something worth making room for Anger. It's only a single slot, so it really isn't that difficult to squeeze in. Flametongue Kavu is another fine choice, but I'm a bit wary of it as the only source to cast it would be that Taiga. It's difficult in this deck to pull stuff like that off because Noble Hierarch isn't Birds of Paradise. Although it's good removal, I'd lean on something that is a bit easier to cast. Winged Coatl or Sower are both easier to cast than FTK in this deck, so I'd look at them, or even Tradewind Rider, before I looked at FTK.

    I also forgot to mention this before, but another big thing about adding Anger with Hierarch is that it really makes Sower and Vendilion Clique easier to cast. The UU costs in them can be a bit bothersome, and hasted Hierarchs speed up the process of getting them into play.

    Regarding Pox, that's still far too small of a metagame threat to really devote slots for. Still, Spell Snare is a decent all-around sideboard as it hits so many threats, so that's reasonable. But against Aggro Loam I would assume BEB is in your sideboard, which it should be, to handle stuff like DD, Burning Wish, Crusher, etc. If it's that big of a problem, adding a singleton Quirion Ranger somewhere in the 75 would also go a long way in fighting them.

  6. #66
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Updated list in the opening post.

    Regarding Pox. It was more the basic stuff like hymn and sinkhole hurting me. I listed Smallpox because it was crushing me. Not a big concern though.

    You are right about FtK. I keep thinking of hierarch as BoP.

  7. #67
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Alright, my thoughts on your list:

    - Anger can easily replace Wonder. That's a no-brainer to me. That list features 7 creatures that have flying. At that point, running Wonder for the sake of making your Goyfs fly is pointless and irrelevant. Going over opposing Goyfs is unnecessary as you'll almost always have exalted so yours will be bigger anyway.

    - The manabase needs serious fixing. Trying to support Back to Basics with a manabase featuring 9 nonbasics and only 4 basics just won't cut it. There are also 1-2 few green sources imo, and that's after I factor in the addition of Taiga. Adding Taiga takes pressure off the blue sources because it helps Hierarchs, so you can swap another blue source for a green one.

    - I mentioned this before, but one of the Pridemages should really be a 3cc destroyer. Otherwise you can get caught in Counterbalance lock and have too few outs to get around it.

    - Given how scarce removal is in these colors, I'd seriously consider a 2nd Sower of Temptation, if not in the maindeck then at least in the sideboard. It's incredibly good.

    - Unless you're playing in a ridiculously Burn-heavy metagame, Rhox War Monk doesn't deserve a maindeck slot. It's very good don't get me wrong, but as a maindeck singleton there are a lot stronger options as a secondary beater. I'd be inclined to look at Mystic Enforcer (there's no way this could replace Rafiq, which is retarded good), Jenara, or another evasive beater, or even a solid utility creature. It's just that life gain is usually so irrelevant that I'd generally rather have something stronger for those kind of color requirements.

  8. #68
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Lands - 21
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    1 Breeding Pool
    2 Savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 Tundra
    3 Forest
    1 Island

    Spells - 16
    4 Survival of the Fittest
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Creatures- 24
    Accel
    4 Noble Hierarch

    Survival Package
    1 Genesis
    1 Squee
    1 Anger

    Utility
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Sower of Temptation
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Winged Coatl

    Faerie Control
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    3 Vendillion Clique

    Beaters
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Rafiq of the Many

    SB
    4 Hydroblast
    4 Rhox War Monk
    3 Krosan Grip
    1 Gigapede
    3 Tormod's Crypt

    Trygon has lost me games because it was so slow. I know what you mean though but Qasali has been amazing. I want to add more not cut it down. I'll see what I can do.

    So with this list I...

    -Fixed up the manabase
    -Added Anger
    -Added Winged Coatl
    -Cut Wonder
    -Cut War Monk

    With this, I finally got off the losing streak by beating the new Vial Wizards. Hopefully it keeps up.

  9. #69
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Angrer-hasted Trygon Predator is great. Exalted angry Predator - even better. Rafiq-powered angry Predator is silly
    StaX and Enchantress are in my meta, so I'll keep Predator. Qasali Pridemage + Genesis=7 mana (1 to put Genesis into grave) and 6 mana each turn, Predator demolishes them just for 4 (1 to put Anger in graveyard).
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.

  10. #70
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    If we run at least 1 red source, Magus of the moon should be in sideboard me thinks. It could take a Monk spot, why are there 4 anyway?

  11. #71
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    If you'd look at my more cantrip orientated build. Maybe I could cut the monk md and add an anger and fix the manabase.

    @Di Thoughts?

    @Jak. Maybe we should write some sort of primer and get this to established.

  12. #72

    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    It doesn't makes sense that you admit to fetching a lot of Hierarchs yet don't want them to have haste. If they go you gain nearly an entire turn because you can not only tutor more of them, but also possibly play other creatures and then still activate Survival or play Brainstorm or something. Given the deck's dependance on other colors I think it's a mistake to not be able to give Hierarch haste. Cutting you off of colors can really screw this deck up, and having immediate access to them is huge.

    I don't feel the need for haste in this deck as much as other survival builds. Hierarch having haste is good, but I feel it's unnecessary. With a goyf in play fetching multiple hierarchs is just golden.

    I feel that adding anger, means a weakening of the manabase. That's a sacrifice I do not want to make.
    Currently playing and testing:
    Faerie Stompy
    Bant Survival
    UW Tempo
    Zoo

  13. #73
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin View Post
    If we run at least 1 red source, Magus of the moon should be in sideboard me thinks. It could take a Monk spot, why are there 4 anyway?
    Eh I just threw the playset in there. It definitely does not need to be a 4of. One will become a Magus for testing.

    @ Trygon
    Trygon does get better with haste so maybe it needs to go back in. I'll work with it.

    @ Primer
    A primer would be helpful and I am down for helping to write one or I could just write it.

    @ THEchubbymuffin
    I have been thrashing MWS (not good I know) and I added anger, which is a lot of fun. I cut down Spellstutters to 3 as I rarely used the fourth one but they are MVP in locking out an opponent with survival.

    Which brings me to the question...

    Which do you guys seem to be doing more with the survival?

    Fetching faerie's and playing while the control.

    Or every turn Goyfs / whatever exalted you can play?

    I understand that it varies based on opponent, board position... yada yada yada.

    But there must be one that you favor.
    Definitely depends on the situation. Since the faerires have flash, I won't tutor for them until I need them or if I have 4 mana open, I will usually go for Clique end of turn. Sprites are only gotten when I need to hit something.

    I haven't been able to test too much with Anger in the deck, but most of the time I will just go for Goyf.

    I have to go but I'll try to finish later.

  14. #74
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Why are you guys so bent on Magus of the Moon? The card is terrible in this deck, not to mention manabases can barely support it. It's more of a cute trick that backfires 90% of the time. I ended up cutting it from my 4c lists a while back because it was hurting me more than it hurt my opponent. Cutting you off from green sources, not to mention other colors given how dependant you are on them, helps nothing. Aside from a matchup like 43 Land, it is completely useless. You run the a weaker manabase than almost every deck you'd bring it in against, and most of those you'd board it in for have answers to handle it. It's really a waste of a slot.

    I don't feel the need for haste in this deck as much as other survival builds. Hierarch having haste is good, but I feel it's unnecessary. With a goyf in play fetching multiple hierarchs is just golden.

    I feel that adding anger, means a weakening of the manabase. That's a sacrifice I do not want to make.
    I already explained how adding Anger actually strengthens it. You're swapping only one land, so it has a very minimal effect, but with Survival you gain full benefit out of your Hierarchs to have access to colors immediately, not a turn later. In this format it's crucial you hit things asap if you want to have a chance at winning. Getting haste is huge in helping you against faster decks, which is virtually every other aggro deck, and the mirror, so I fail to see any good reason not to run it.

    You also just proved my point with fetching multiple Hierarchs. It's a whole lot easier to do when you have haste as they replace themselves, especially if you're low on lands.

    If you'd look at my more cantrip orientated build. Maybe I could cut the monk md and add an anger and fix the manabase.

    @Di Thoughts?
    My own personal list follows yours a little closely, as I run a higher cantrip count as well. Only thing is I still wouldn't go under 20 lands under any condition. You want to be able to hit consistent land drops until turn 3-4, and with Wasteland and stuff in the way it can present huge problems.

  15. #75
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Mind sharing? I can't seem to find room for the anger tbh PM plz

  16. #76
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Oh, sure. I also forgot to mention cutting War Monk for Anger was fine. I still don't think it belongs in the main either way.

    4 Survival of the Fittest
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    1 Genesis
    1 Anger

    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Spellstutter Sprite
    2 Vendilion Clique
    1 Sower of Temptation
    1 Winged Coatl/Sower of Temptation
    1 Rafiq of the Many
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Trygon Predator
    1 Qasili Pridemage

    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Wooded Foothills
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 Tundra
    3 Forest

    That's what I have currently. The Tundra could be cut for a basic land, or maybe the 2nd Taiga, but it's fine as it is for now. I too only run 3 Sprite as I find the 4th redundant and unnecessary. You have Cliques and Sower so the 4th isn't really needed. Otherwise everything else is fine. I kind of want to fit the 3rd Ponder in and 2nd Sower in (realistically I want 2 Sower AND 1 Coatl) but space is hard. The only slot I'd really trim is Eternal Witness, but that's unlikely.

  17. #77

    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    With the inclusion of Anger, wouldn't Tradewind rider make the staple in stead of sower?
    He's also at 4, but costs only 1 blue. He's golden against big creatures like Tombslalker or Dreadnought, flies and can't be bolted.

    I already explained how adding Anger actually strengthens it. You're swapping only one land, so it has a very minimal effect,
    Do you feel adding 1 taiga is enough? I usually insert 2 in builds where red in just for anger. Just to be safe from an occasional wasteland...
    But that would be stressing the manabase.
    I'll take is as you're right and add it to my test list, see how it turns out.
    Currently playing and testing:
    Faerie Stompy
    Bant Survival
    UW Tempo
    Zoo

  18. #78
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Mass View Post
    With the inclusion of Anger, wouldn't Tradewind rider make the staple in stead of sower?
    He's also at 4, but costs only 1 blue. He's golden against big creatures like Tombslalker or Dreadnought, flies and can't be bolted.
    Perhaps. I debated on Tradewind Rider and mentioned it earlier, but these builds have a very low creature count to support it. Taking advantage of it is kind of difficult without something like Quirion Ranger to support it. However, I will mention that if you did include Tradewind Rider either Trygon Predator or Qasili Pridemage could be cut, as Tradewind handles that stuff as well. Tradewind over Trygon Predator is reasonable given they both require haste to work, and Tradewind is a bit more flexible anyway. It's worth looking into.

    Do you feel adding 1 taiga is enough? I usually insert 2 in builds where red in just for anger. Just to be safe from an occasional wasteland...
    But that would be stressing the manabase.
    I'll take is as you're right and add it to my test list, see how it turns out.
    A 2nd Taiga would be making it into the deck, yes, that was just a draft of a manabase. Cutting a basic Forest for it would be acceptable.

  19. #79
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    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Waikiki and I made a primer that still needs work, but it helps a bit. I still need to add some more information since I made it quick. Please help us add some more information to it like in the How to Play the Deck section or Matchups. Anything to help make the primer better.

    And hopefully it could be moved to Established since there are some lists on Deckcheck.net that have done well.

  20. #80

    Re: [Deck] Surviving Bant

    Is there a way we could fit in a Reveillark in this list? It would be insane with some Sowers/Witness in the yard. Is 5 cmc too much? Is the blue count low enough we can't take out Rafique or a V Clique?

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