I see a ton of Lands here at our small tournaments (3/8-12 decks sometimes).
Nimble Mongoose is amazing against them, as well as surgical on either the Loam or wastelands, but any graveyard hate is good against them.
It's also very possible to mana screw them if you are are running Stifle.
I also bring in Ancient Grudge to deal with their Ensnaring bridge and Crucible.
It's also important to be careful with your wasteland targets, getting Academy Ruins out of the picture is usually important or else they can just keep recurring the bridge until you don't have a hard counter. I usually take go:
-3 Goyf (I run the 3 goyf/1 ooze split)
-3 Daze on the play Spell Pierce on the Draw
+2 Surgical
+2 Crypt
+2 Grudge
Despite Delver being a miserable card this deck is so stupidly fun sometimes. The other day on cockatrice I played against Maverick. Had no landers and mulled down to 4. The opp was a cool guy so he let me draw a fresh 7. The only land I had was a Wasteland but I kept it and began the game without further due.
He leads with Mom. I topdeck a fetchland and Lightning Bolt it.
He has a two drop, I have Daze. On my turn I drop a Delver.
He plays Knight, I FoW. On my turn Delver flips. I waste his Savannah.
He tries to Wasteland my Volcanic, I have stifle for it. On my turn I drop Mongoose and start beatdown.
He drops Maze of Ith to slow down the beats and has another two drop.
I Forked Bolt the two drop, continue the beats for a couple turns and finish him off with a Lightning Bolt.
He rage quits soon after.
The "cool man, draw 7 seven" guy turns into "ffuuuu!" after 6-7 turns of derp. What a deck :)
I'd probably cut Bolt effects before I cut Goyfs. It's nice to have a few to finish them off, but our threats are far more important in the matchup. We need all the dudes we can against their Mazes of Ith, and if your bent on cutting a couple Goyfs, I'd at least side in a couple Grim Lavamancers at the very least, since they can't be Mazed, Moated, or Bridged.Originally Posted by that0neguy
They rarely run any dudes (except maybe postboard), so cutting bolts is fine.
I don't run the Lavamancers anymore, they have been a bit too slow for me. And too awkward with nimble mongoose.
Also the fact that they can easily shut off the red for it makes me not too excited. Oftentimes against Maverick and Lands they can just waste me out of red after I tap to play the lavamancer.
Nimble Mongoose is much more important against the mazes, since it seems to me that they often get several mazes, and if you over extend into mazes, they start to get you with Tabernacle.
Although, they also sometimes bring in Chalice of the Void@1, which Goyf gets around.
You want your Bolts for their Creeping Tar Pits. Your main win-con in that matchup is the Mongoose. I've played that matchup a lot... You will want your burn post board otherwise their Thalia's will wreck your ability to gain tempo on them. The Dark Confidants are not worth killing IMO. Even if they have more cards than you, their cards are worse. Game 1 you should note whether they are run Ports as well, as not all builds are running them anymore.
Greetings All!
I don't mean to derail the Lands MU discussion that is taking place, but I have a quick report of my weekly event. I managed to dominate yet another weekly. This week my match ups were G/U Enchantress (2-1), Goblins (2-0), Goblins (2-1), and Omni-Tell (2-1). My 4-0 record was good for $20 in store credit and a go infinite.
If you guys haven't seen this new G/U Enchantress list, it is pretty legit. It basically can play a prison control route against us with Elephant Grass or just go straight nuts and do the normal Enchantress plan of drawing a ton of cards. The cool thing is that they bounce all of your shit and then beat you down with little silly dudes like Cloud of Faeries and Eternal Witness. It is pretty funny. My opponent managed to get me game one, as my hand was counter light. Post-board, I had more relevant means to interact and just wrecked him. It seems all of their cards suck if they can't draw off of them... LOL. Just countering all of the Enchantress effects and/or Extracting the Enchantresses worked really well for me.
As for the Goblins match ups, I finally took some advice from a few of you guys and squeezed 2 Rough/Tumbles into my board. I was pretty happy with them too. In round three, game two, I Roughed his boards with him in topdeck mode, which got me there. And round three, game three, I got to cast both Roughs to just completely blow him out (he got pretty lucky... topdecked a Goblin Ringleader after the first Rough and hit three dudes.) So I am pretty on board with this change up to the board, do you guys have any other tech for this match up that I might have overlooked? I am interested as Goblins is now competing for the largest portion of my meta.
Omni-Tell is an interesting deck. I am not sure as to whether it is a good or bad match up at this point. I just felt like I was behind in the first two games. In game three I was able to sculpt a pretty awesome hand. It had a FoW, Pyroblast, Envelop, and a Stifle and this is all with two threshed Geese on the table. I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on this match up too, if any of you guys have had experience with it.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Fair enough, but I'd still side out my sorcery-speed Burn first in that case. You could also shave a Thought Scour, since Mongoose will probably get Threshold fairly quickly regardless. I can see cutting 1 threat, but not 3. Against any control deck, we need a critical mass of threats or we literally just durdle until they take over the lategame.
Sturtz, good job against the Gobbos. I'm still testing Lavamancer, but I think Rough/Tumble will eventually replace them as the better all-around card in those types of matches. Helps against Dredge too, and is probably more effective against Elves and the like too.
The decision about Rough//Tumble and Lavamancers as anti-aggro/tribal should be based mostly on the amount of Merfolk you think there will be.
Rough//Tumble is just amazing versus the non-merfolk tribes, still good versus Maverick and good against other decks, like Enchantress and Dredge. However it is awful against Merfolk, because two lords will shut it down, and you will need to sculpt a favorable board to blow out with bolts and blasts, most of the time it will not be easy.
Meanwhile, Lavamancers shine against the fish and are still good versus elves, gobbos and Maverick, and can be quite useful against control decks as it provides constant damage. The downsides are the tempo loss involved in setting the Lavamancer up and the fighting for the same resources as the Mongooses.
On a side note, for those still testing Lavamancers, what do you think of a singleton Basilisk Collar on the SB? It could help against all aggro decks and even against S&T/Reanimator.
Hey thanks! Stifle goes a long way in the Goblins match up as you can keep them off of land, protect your own land, and also shut down the card advantage that they can generate. It is just priceless when a Goblins player plays a Goblin Ringleader off of a Cavern of Souls and gets wrecked by a Stifle. In my second goblins match up, my opponent was like, "Cast Ringleader." I was responded, "Thinking." He goes, "You can't counter it. Cavern." I was like... LOLZ... Stifle. Get wrecked.
My meta currently has 2 Goblins, 2-3 storm decks that use Empty the Warrens, 1 U/G Enchantress, me on RUG, and the Omni-Tell guy who also plays Stoneblade/Miracles. Quite a shift due to school being back in session. There is one guy that sometimes plays Merfolk but it doesn't seem worth it when Rough/Tumble is such a house against all of these other decks.
I think that it is really powerful. It gives you a really good piece of trump that can kill stupid big creatures like KotR, reanimated stuff, Emrakul, etc. It can also clear a path for our creatures, all while gaining a bit of life, which can be very relevant in a race. On the flip side, my experience with sideboard one-ofs is that I rarely draw them. Moreover hoping to draw a Collar when you have a Lavamancer, isn't outlandish, but isn't too favorable. I think there are likely better sideboard options.
Legacy
Vintage
Show and Tell decks are one of the primary reasons I went back to the 18 Land/Stifle build rather than the 19 Land/Spell Pierce build. The Sol Lands do too much work against Spell Pierce alone and can sometimes pull them ahead too far. Adding Stifle back into the deck allowed me to prioritize Wastelands >> Sol Lands, and Stifle on their fetchlands. Subsequently, their Overmaster plan becomes worse because, as it turns out, it needs extra mana to go that route.
I did overdo the combo hate for Gen Con, but disregarding a misevaluation of my own hand in one of the rounds (leading to me losing a game against the eventual tournament winner), I felt like I could never lose to the Show and Tell decks, and was always happy to see it.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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Thanks for the advice. I remember awhile back you suggested that I try out Envelop to help with the Miracles match up. Well my meta has changed a good bit since then. Interestingly enough, Envelop is still pretty sick against basically everything in my field. It is great against Miracles, all of the Storm decks, and has quite a few applications in the Omni-Tell match up. At this point, the only decks that it really doesn't do much against are the 2 Goblins decks, the 1 Enchantress, and it is marginal against the one Dredge player (they still get all of their triggers and what not, although it is another decent answer to basically all of their spells). So overall it seems that it is a solid board cards for half to 2/3s of my meta now.
The way that you mentioned is basically how I played against the deck. Trying to take out Sol lands with Wastes and Stifles on Fetches. Doing those things with a treat in play and some counter back up was the general game plan. Anyway thanks again for the suggestion.
Legacy
Vintage
I'm not really worried about Merfolk, at least not locally. It's probably not a great matchup, but it's close, and we have enough other SB cards to handle them anyway. Rough/Tumble still works against them assuming we actually draw other removal spells too, but yes Lavamancer will completely shut them down in most cases. But Merfolk has consistently shown that it can't hold onto Tier 1 status like it used to, so it won't be affecting my SB decisions very much.
It's more that I haven't gotten a chance to test Lavamancer fully, and I actually like him for a variety of reasons beyond the obvious ones. He'll get a true run this coming weekend, and I'll decide then how I feel about him. It's also likely that 3 is too many, and I need the extra combo/grave hate slot instead.
Basilisk Collar is going a step too far in my opinion, as you're very unlikely to ever set up that combo when it matters, and beyond that scenario it's just a weaker version of Jitte. I don't see the need/space for Jitte either, but Collar is just too cute.
I don't yet feel the need for Stifle to return, even with a rise in Show and Tell. In my experience, we have decent game against them already.
In reference to a good sb card against lands
Price of Progress
My problem with Lavamancer was against the Wasteland decks. You go Fetch Volc Lavamancer, they go Wasteland volc, and hes dead. And the match ups where it is supposed to be amazing: Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, ect are all wasteland decks.
I'm switching back to Fire/Ice, the ability to do things like tap down a Knight or kill 2 x/1s seems much more powerful. The biggest problem with it is Thalia. 3 mana is a lot to pay for most spells in RUG.
Good point 0neguy.
Having not tested either option thoroughly, I think I'm better off with just running 2 Rough/Tumble at this weekend's FoW tournament.
As you said, Lavamancer has issues against Wasteland, and costs more resources to keep up with the board. Also, you need an early Lavamancer to actually effect the game, whereas you can dig into your Rough/Tumble later in the game and have it still be good. I also like that Rough is spell for Delver, doesn't compete with Mongoose, and can be used against other random decks like Dredge, Storm, and Belcher (empty the warrens). It's even good against deadguy builds using Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom. Overall, I think it's a better choice in an open meta, and doesn't force me to decide between how many Mongeese, Lavamen, and Thought Scours to run in Sideboard games. Less headache is good.
SB for this weekend:
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfuric Vortex (still unsure on this one)
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge (or possibly a 1/1 split with Kgrip for OmniTell)
3 Submerge
1 Gilded Drake (also unsure here, but works against fatties + Maverick)
As mentioned before, my main still has all the 4-ofs, plus 3 Thought Scour, 2 Chain, and 1 Fire/Ice. Also NO Stifle.
Here is the list that I am playing at a decent sized legacy tournament tomorrow. It's also the list I played at SCG MLPS top 64 last weekend -2 Lavamancers + 2 fire/ice:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
6 Fetch
SB
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Force of Will
I really do not like force of will in most match ups. Obviously it needs to be there for several decks, but in the mirror its pretty bad. Against fair decks its pretty bad. Its mostly good against combo, or when you abosultely need to stop a threat (Knight of the Reliquary/Goblin Lackey/Aether Vial)
I want to fit in a few Rough/Tumble or Sulfur Elemental, but I don't really know what I would cut to do it.
I was curious how people side against Maverick. It seems like a very bad match up, even with submerge/Mind harness. Do people bring in crypts against their knights, or usually just Submerge/Mindharness? Do you leave in Force of will to stop the knights? Or take them out to prevent a 2:1
61 Cards maindeck? You might want to shave a Stifle/Daze/Spell Pierce, especially since you're only on 18 lands. Otherwise looks good, and I have to agree with you on not liking 4 FoW. Still, it's the card that wins the unfair matchups the most, so for now I'm sticking with 4. I hate having to put 1 in the SB.
As for Maverick, I'd personally cut the Mind Harnesses. You can either add in 2 Rough/Tumble, or leave 1 Harness and add the 4th Submerge, or some number of Gilded Drakes. Mind Harness gets expensive very quickly, but having 1 isn't terrible, especially since it helps a bit against Goblins and random problematic red dudes. Rough/Tumble is probably your best bet to fight Tribal in general, and it's obviously decent against G/W too. Gilded Drake is a great way to steal their KOTRs, and makes for a nice little combo with Submerge if you can get it going. That plan would want you to play like 2 drakes and 4 submerge though, and it's only effective sometimes, so I wouldn't go out of your way there. Drake is nice to have for the Fatty decks too, but it's not entirely necessary.
I would keep some number of Forces in against Maverick, usually 2-3. Daze and Spell Pierce can get a lot worse against them, but you pretty much need to Force their Knights, Thalias and sometimes Rangers.
You could also potentially cut a Crypt or Surgical, since you have the maindeck Ooze (I'm considering going back to that 1-of as well for Sunday). Crypt/Surgical are only really great against Dredge and Reanimate, and I rarely find myself siding in more than 1-2 Extractions in any other matchups. Give Grafdigger's Cage some thought, it really shuts those decks down hard, since they can't play around it at all and must remove it. By the time they've done that, you can lock up the game much faster, since you don't need to keep mana open every single turn. A 1/1/1/1 split of Extraction, Cage, Crypt, and the Ooze might actually be really good, since they will never know what to play around. Just a thought.
Anecdotal question.
You're playing against an unknown deck and you're on the play. Your opening 7 is:
Delver, Mongoose, Daze, Fetchland, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt
Do you fetch for Volcanic Island or Tropical Island?
What if you know you are playing against Maverick?
I mull that hand against an unknown opponent. Actually I don't even know if I'd keep that against a known opponent. Okay, maybe against Elves.
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
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I'm a bad player like that with the 61st card.
I have actually really liked Mind Harness. I generally save my wastelands to pay for it when I am bringing it in, but as long as you keep it around for 2-3 turns, it can often be enough to just win the game, since it usually grabs a Knight or Goyf depending on the match up. a Harness can put a lot of pressure on them, acting as a removal spell, and their biggest guy for U + upkeep.
It seems like I have rarely had a problem killing the opponent, or killing the creature before sending it back to them the following turn. (It steals lavamancer too, and the lavamancer just kills himself on your last upkeep.) I usually use it as the last threat after a war of attrition, to push through the last points of damage.
We have a lot of Dredge and Lands here, so I like surgical, although if I were going to another star city event, I think I would probably cut 1 extraction and a REB for 2 rough/tumble? There are a lot of match ups that I like to bring in a single extraction for the random wasteland extract their dual. Or extracting their wastelands in the mirror in response to a LFtL. Or a single extraction for lingering souls against esper control. In the mirror there are a lot of decent extraction targets. I have found that knowing that they do not have goyf's, or bolts, or a type of mana can be benificial, even if you are down a card. Knowing they don't have a way to kill your goyf because you extracted their burn spells can be a big deal. Knowing they can't cast anymore green creatures is huge, ect.
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