I'm more likely to prioritize t1 Stifle if I have some support based on my hand (ie., Wasteland or Daze to compliment the mana denial plan).
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Took the Mark Sun Stifle build to a split 1st/2nd place finish yesterday in a 21-man local, winning an Underground Sea in the process.
My matches
2-0 vs. Merfolk
2-1 vs. Mono R Goblins
1-2 vs. RUG (no Stifle, with Grim Lavamancer, Ooze and Thought Scour)
1-2 vs. Nic Fit
2-0 vs. Mono Black Control
Somehow my tiebreakers were good enough to squeak into the top 8 as the only one with 9 points. Because I'm 8th seed, all of my game ones are on the draw, which is generally a huge disadvantage... but people seem to have forgotten how to play against Stifle.
Top 8 (2 RUG, Alluren, High Tide, Omni-Tell, Maverick, Nic Fit, Esper Blade):
2-0 vs. High Tide
2-0 vs. Nic Fit (I was sideboarding wrong in the the Swiss, with proper SBing this match is more manageable)
Split with RUG player from Swiss (it was so late, and the prize for 1st and 2nd was essentially the same)
Some thoughts:
-I think the 4th Tarmogoyf might be necessary. You really want him in the mirror and against tribal decks. Alternatively, Scavenging Ooze might be worth it in this slot.
-Cutting GY hate from the SB was an amazing decision. I think trying to hedge your bets against too many archetypes and therefore dilute your strength overall is a poor decision. Decide on 3-4 major archetypes you want to beat, and base your SB around that. For my local metagame, Dredge and other gy-intenstive decks have hardly no presence, and tend to get hated out in the Swiss by other decks.
-Running Stifle, the 19th land can probably be cut for another business spell.
-The only SB card that didn't pull its weight for me was Sulfur Elemental. However, had my pairings been different he would have been key in several matchups.
-The 3rd REB/Pyroblast can possibly be something else, perhaps something geared towards the mirror. I was thinking Life from the Loam.
Last edited by wcm8; 08-27-2012 at 08:38 AM.
Good job! 2-0 against Nic Fit to avenge your Swiss loss is pretty awesome.
I, too, have debated on adding the fourth Tarmogoyf in. I used to play it in the 3rd Spell Pierce slot but going up to five cards at 1G was too much, in my opinion. Sylvan Library is a house right now. Plus, we are already at 18 lands so the less 2cc spells, the better. I hated the 3rd Red Blast last weekend, and I actually did cut it for a second Flusterstorm. I did think it was risky not having Life from the Loam, as much as I dislike that card I think you do need to have a copy to avoid getting blown out in the mirror.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Let's talk about this card:
Izzet Charm
UR
Instant
Choose one - Spell Pierce; draw two, then discard two; or Shock a creature
Pros:
-Extremely versatile. It can function as a counterspell, filter/draw, AND removal. This pushes its utility near the range of Fire//Ice.
-It's never exactly 'dead' in any matchup.
-Another blue spell to pitch to FoW.
-Can function somewhat like a Thought Scour post-Ponder. I think this will push Thought Scour out of vogue.
Cons:
-Costing two can be relevant in a deck with 18~ lands.
-Requiring blue AND red means it can occasionally get stranded in hand when you get bottle-necked on mana.
-The damage can't be split, meaning cards like Forked Bolt and Fire//Ice are still king in creature matchups.
I expect this card to see some play, but just how much remains to be seen.
Played the 3 Goyf, 4 Stifle, 2 Forked Bolt variant in a small local this weekend, ended up 4th overall, won the swiss. I won against NO Bant, Team America and Esper Blade in the swiss and lost to BW Blade, lost to the mirror in the semis (game one he had the classic "three Delvers, inf wastelands" hand, game two I mulled to five), then lost the match for third place against the same BW Blade deck. The deck is built to crush Canadian Thresh, it has all the cards I hate to see, Inquisition, Hymn, Jotun Grunt, Lingering Souls, Bob, Mom etc. etc.
Tried Hidden Gibbons for a laugh, and actually won a game against TA on the back of a monkey (so awesome!). I think Dismember and Sulfur Elemental is better in my local metagame, however.
Sorry I had to tweak what I was quoting from you. When I saw this spoiled last night I was pretty excited. I think this card has a lot of potential. It does many of the things this deck wants all in one nice, neat little package. Granted you have to payOriginally Posted by wcm8
, in place of just a normal
or
I wouldn't mind having additional Spell Pierces in my deck and the fact that it also can allow more creature removal and a new way (not sold on if it is better, although I am inclined to think that it is) to charge up Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf is just sick. On second thought, I think the instant speed Careful Study effect is better than Thought Scour. You get to draw the cards and then choose what to discard. So in essence, although it is card disadvantage (-1 card), you get to select the best cards at the given moment, all while getting more selection of the cards to graveyard, which in itself is sometimes an advantage with Goose and Goyf (i.e. gaining Threshold or a new card types).
So yes I will be messing around with this card. At very least I think it is almost always going to be strictly better than Thought Scour. The exceptions being when you are constricted on mana or the win-more scenario of Thought Scouring your opponent for whatever reason (Counterbalance, kept Ponder, gambit for fueling Surgical Extraction, etc.).
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
I have been running the following disruption suite for the past few months:
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
I had the 2 extra chain lightnings as both creature removal and as a straight to the face burn to speed the race (which is what this deck is all about). But I will probably try the 2 Izzet Charms in the place of Chain Lightnings. In a deck full of narrow answers a flexible card like this in the flex slots could be a perfect match. However I feel like I'm going to use the Instant speed Careful Study ability most and not sure how mana restrained I will be for a 2 mana Shock or a 2 mana Spell Pierce.
Very excited about this card. You outlined the pros and cons very well. Another con I might add is that it doesn't deal damage to players. I've won a number of games using forked bolt and fire/ice for lethal. The versatility of this card is quite remarkable, but the lack of reach really hurts. RUG is weak against big creatures like Knight and fire/ice can tap those critters at critical moments, cantrip, and potentially do something game-ending that turn. RUG has the most counters in a tier 1 deck and having additional spell pierce effects that cost UR to play doesn't quite accomplish much I think. Obviously, this card needs testing and only time will tell how good it's applications are.
This past Saturday I played thresh to a 2nd place finish at [Philadelphia Legacy Series] Season 1 Championship @ Top Deck Games , losing in the finals. I walked away with a playset of Tundras and Badlands. Tourney link here. This tourney, like the Vintage tourneys that Nick Coss runs At TDGs was amazing and I strongly encourage everyone to try to come to the next vintage tourney Sept 15th.
There were 79 people and seven rounds of swiss leading to a top 8.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thought Scour
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
SB:
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Jitte
The jitte was bad, the ooze never did anything and goyf was always awesome.
Lavamancer kicks so much spirit token and merfolk butt. At worse it keeps your goyfs safe from getting plowed. I expected alot of maverick, stoneblade and murfolk so therefore the lavamancer/thought scour package over the stifles. I want to put atleast one more thought scour in the deck to really power up the gooses and mancers.
Here is a brief report, sorry if I get something wrong, it was alot of magic.
R1
2-0 Stoneblade, Evan
I dont remember much about this match, I have myself ending both games at 19 and 18 life, respectively.
R2
1-2 UWb Miracles, Blake
Good player that I see later on in the day. He wins the first game, I run him over the second and the third game he stabalizes at 9 life when he plays a BANESLAYER ANGEL and proceeds to go all the way.
R3
2-0 Murfolk, Josh (opponent gets g1 loss for deck reg error)
He gets a game one loss for not writing a sb card down. He draws poorly g2 and we play a third game for fun; it was closer, but I still got him.
R4
2-0 Stoneblade, Tim
He tutors up batterskull both games, with all of the bolts, lavamancers and ancient grudges I still got there.
R5
2-1 Murfolk, Eric
Opponent was a very nice guy. I get land screwed g1 and promptly die to a bunch of blue dudes. Games 2 and 3 are both very tight and grindy. At one point I have to wasteland my only other land to be able to block his islandwalking team and pull out the game. G2 I ended at 1 life, game 3 I ended at 3 life. Very good games.
R6
2-0 BW Stax!?! Robert
Another very nice opponent, he had lent my buddy some cards for the tourney too. Ancient grudge, Spell Pierce and daze are just so good. He never got into the games. Game 1 he mulled to 5 and I had double delver.
R7
2-0 Mirror, Blake's friend, sorry I forgot your name.
I am in 8th place with 15 points, if I draw then the guy in 9th place with 13 points (Mike playing Stoneblade)and better breakers can push me out of the top 8. Therefore I am forced to be that guy and dreamcrush my opponent out of the top 8.
I dont remember much out of the ordinary these games, I know I brought in the scavenging ooze as an extra beater, altho he was never more than a grizzly bear.
7-1 Rounds
13-3 games
Top 8
So after round seven's win, I have the most points and am therefore ranked #1 in standings, putting me on the play for every match. Sweet.
Quarter Finals
2-1 Stoneblade, Mike
Amazing game 1, he swords his own guy to land at 1 after an attack and then proceeds to come back and win the game. Jace out and a Batterskull equipped with a jitte is hard to beat haha.
Game two he hits me with discard and I hide ancient grudge and sulfuric vortex with a brainstorm. I win game 2 with the vortex and beats without showing him my ancient grudges.
Game three he gets to see the grudge when batterskull comes out to play. He does not draw paticularly well this game and shows me some lands when I counter his ponder on his last turn.
Semifinals
2-0 UWb Miracles, Blake
Rematch! I ended game one at 17 life and game two at 20 life after my guys get plowed. Game one I beat him to death with a tiny mongoose after he removes graveyards with relic of progenitus. I think he also had counter top lock and I ended up getting around it with double bolt trying to make the mongoose bigger.
Game two he taps out to entreat the angles for two to stay alive and I have the spell pierce. He played divining top almost every game and I was constantly afraid of having my guys being terminus-ed away. It was tricky to tell when to apply more pressure and when to hold guys back.
Finals
1-2 Goblins, Mike
Ahh the finals! Game one I keep a terrible hand, it was something like tropical island, double ponder, spell pierce, not a land, not a land, not a land. I wiff on the ponder like a chump and get wastelanded out of the game on turn one. I really really wished I mulligan-ed that hand.
So take a look at my side board and tell me what you would want to put in against goblins. Spell pierce seems TERRIBLE due to not a single spell besides vial being in a goblin deck. I take out two pierces for an ooze and a Jitte.
Game two I get to counter his guys. he runs two guys out to get countered and I just beat him to death with big green guys.
Game three I mull to 5. He proceeds to beat me to death with a piledriver and other mean red guys. I have the jitte in hand for several turns but am too far behind to get it active. Congrats Mike!
9-2 rounds
18-6 games
Last edited by yeaaaah; 08-27-2012 at 11:32 PM.
I have been seeing Gilded Drake in sideboards what matches would you bring him in?
Anyone could help me with a god sideboard plan agaisnt maverick, UW miracle, mirror and combo!?!?
What to take out and what to put in on the play and on teh draw!?!?
Ty so much!
Bring them in against anything with large creatures you can't deal with. Typically reanimator or sneak and show, possibly against knight of the reliquary if you want.
On Izzet Charm:
Not bolting the face is a downside, but not such a big deal cause it can cylce other cards.
Spell Pierce or creature removal for UR is pretty weak. But I think it might be worth it to get the occasional careful study EOT which can be quit powerful. I will test it as a 1of instead of Fire-Ice.
Still I think this card is best in a shell that has a higher curve and can also get full use out of the flexible utility: UWR Miracle comes to mind.
Currently playing: Elves
My sideboard is this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Scevenging Ooze
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 REB
1 FoW
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
I tried to build it as flexible as possible so that almost all the cards could be used in multiple mathcups. For Maverick I bring in Submerges and Sulfur Elemental. If I see a Choke I may bring in the 4th FoW. I tend to side out Daze on the draw and Stifle/Pierce on the play. For UW decks I bring in Ancient Grudges and REBs. If it's a Lingering Souls variant the Sulfur Elementals come in as well. For the mirror Submerges and Scavenging Oozes come in (they are also my GY hate) so I can have a better fighting force in the red zone and more threats. For combo REBs, FoW and Flusterstorm come in. I was thinking about having the 4th Pierce in place of Flusterstorm but then thought, if I have a singleton counterspell in the board just for the combo matchups Flusterstorm is a better alternative. What to take out is very subjective imo, depending on your main deck configuration, play style and what you expect from you opponent.
@yeaaaah: Contrats on the 9-2 record and finals finish.
Izzet Charm
Looking over this card I initially thought it would be an auto include in RUG. However, upon thinking about the spots it might compete for, I'm convinced its just not good enough. At
The main problem is its effects are all redundant, more expensive, or weaker variations of cards RUG already uses. Given the eight cantrips, its reasonable to be able to find either a Thought Scour, Fire//Ice (Fork Bolt), and or Spell Pierce with a high level of certainty. I don't understand what the rational would be for cutting Thought Scour or Fire//Ice (Fork Bolt) for Izzet Charm.
As an aside, anyone else find it odd there will be two cards name "Izzet Charm" with each having different text?
How so?
There is no other card named Izzet Charm.
While I think the card warrants testing, the mana constraints are likely too much for RUG Delver.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Izzet Charm belong's in U/R Delver if anything. Not in a Thresh deck.
Even then Nid, it might be a stretch. U/R Delver wants burn to hit their opponent even more often than we do, and they don't really need an expensive Spierce or Faithless Looting effect either.
Overall, I think Izzet Charm is a sweet card, but I also think it's too expensive for RUG Delver. I'd still prefer Fire/Ice in most situations.
On Gilded Drake: I think it's a fine card to side in vs. Maverick, especially given the Submerge trick. If you were really serious about this strategy, you'd probably want the full 4 Submerges and at least 2 Drakes: right now I'm only running 3 and 1 personally. BUT I have the 3 Lavamancers in the board, which I'm thinking is less cute and more effective against a variety of creature decks, namely everything Tribal + Maverick. Also, with OmniTell on the rise, I'd be leary of running too many Gilded Drakes when they can just play Omniscience instead of Big Grizz.
My SB as of now is this:
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 REB
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
Maindeck I'm back to the 4/4/4 plan with dudes, as well as 4 of everything else + 3 Thought Scour, 1 Fire/Ice, 2 Chain Lightning, and no Stifle (still). I've got 30 spells and 30 permanents, so I can flip Delver with the utmost consistency. Grim Lavamancer in the board adds a nice element of being able to burn out your opponent more consistently, and covers Maverick et al. well enough that I wanted to go back to Chain Lightning. Lavaman can theoretically help against Control decks like Miracles too, since you can side into something closer to Blue Zoo if needed. Krosan Grip is a nod to those decks as well as OmniTell, since things like Moat (out of Control) and Omniscience (in general) are unbeatable otherwise, and it never hurts to beat their countermagic. Yea it's more pricey than Nature's Claim, but I'm a burn player at heart and hate giving my opponents life.
I still love Flusterstorm as Spell Pierce #5, and it's a bit more flexible than REB #3. Like, it can counter Overmaster, or Terminus. I'm also light on GY hate, since Scavenging Ooze is no longer present, but that obviously changes as the meta fluctuates. I still want to find space somehow for a Vortex and maybe a Loam again, depending on the meta.
It kill's Ooze, which is a problem card for U/R Delver. Either way, we won't know until someone get's around ot testing it, or someone show's where it belongs if it belongs.
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