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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2401
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    One problem is that the deck doesn't like to hit more than 3 lands (and would prefer one of the three to be a Wasteland), so what exactly is the deck doing if it has to keep up UU to counter their spells? Maybe you should be mulling more aggressively. If you don't have either a 1drop creature or a Stifle, there's a good chance you should be mulling.

    The whole point of the deck is to drop a guy and then finish the game before they have a chance to do anything. Even if they don't get hit by them, if they have to play around Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland then you're ahead. The exception is if you haven't dropped a dude in the first two turns, then you are even or possibly behind because you're correct, Stifle and Daze get really bad as the game goes on.

    You want to play a guy t1 or t2, depending on if you have Daze or Stifle and if you're on the play or draw. Then you want to stall them. If they are playing a KotR on t3 then you're doing it wrong and you will lose. If they are playing a KotR on t4 or t5 (due to Stifle, Wasteland, and Daze), but you don't have board presence then you are just as behind as they are and will probably lose. FoW is ideally your closer. It's t5 and you just have to punch through one more hit before your burn is live. FoW their scary dude and proceed to wrap up over the next couple turns, or put them in a place where a topdecked burn will kill them. If you have to use FoW before then, then you are in a bad position.

    And finally, if your style of play is more akin to "run them out of cards via hard counters and removal, then kill them at your leisure" then you probably shouldn't be playing RUG. RUG's plan is "play a threat, stall them, and kill them before they can use the cards in their hand."

  2. #2402

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vedalken View Post
    I might sound dumb. hell It might be ridiculous.
    We have no real conterspell beside force of will.

    I played so many game where my opponent where just playing around daze. where they never taped out for my spell pierce to be effective.

    -Can we plz redefine *tempo* In a format where everything cost 3 at max?

    I might sound ridiculous. But I think we have to bring back the old conterspell.

    The one that cannot be played around. the conter spell that actually stops that freaking knight to hit the table.
    The one that conters that damn sword to plow share on our goyf for 1.

    (I would run the extra island with it)

    At the last tourney, stifle sucked f****** balls. wcm8 actually explained all the reason it didn't do it for me and it is such a bad top deck imo.

    I just feel like every conterspell we have in this deck can be thrown to garbage because good player will play around them.
    Now you can say that this is what you actually want in a tempo deck. To buy time while they play around hand. But when they finally do land the killing blow the spell that cost you the game and that you cant do anything about. well you lose.

    Now let the flaming begins.
    Tell me your opinion on why would conterspell be bad right now especially vs maverick or bant or esper or any combo deck. I only see it being weak in the match up -.-.

    -vedalken

    ps- I dont like where this deck is going.
    I dont feel like we are going toward being the aggressor as a tempo deck except of the fact that we have those 1 cc drop.
    Play another deck with real counterspells like UW or something. Theres no reason why the archetype had 5 representation in the last SCG Finals.

    This deck is far from perfect, no deck is perfect for that matter. Pretty sure that all the Legacy threads right now are also having these kinds of discussions on how to beat this and that.

    Thats the beauty of Legacy, its a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing. If you consistently want to beat Maverick, run something unfair which would trample Maverick.

  3. #2403
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd View Post
    If you consistently want to beat Maverick, run something unfair which would trample Maverick.
    Sulfur Elemental and Submerge solve a lot of the problems with Maverick. Thunderous Wrath will also be great in that MU as it's a great answer to a resolved KotR/Ooze that doubles as a punch in the face. Forked Bolt is also pretty unfair against creature decks.

  4. #2404

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    I don't mean the change the conversation topic, but I started thinking about gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian probe is stronger the more lines of play a deck has, and we have a lot. It solves the turn 1 stifle or threat gamble,
    and the tarmogoyf tap out or almost tap out issue. Because we can swap roles so easily, I feel like Gitaxian probe deserves some discussion; I think it adds consistency due to not having to gamble in those situations. It pitches to force at the worst, and let's you know how to plan your attack in the early game. I think the argument against it that there are better options is poor (deck space argument) because it cantrips into Something else for 0. 4 is almost certainly too many, but 2-3 is possible. What do you guys think ?

  5. #2405
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ImpinAintEasy View Post
    Obviously I haven't tested either miracle card yet, but here are my thoughts on them. I can definitely see the red miracle making an impact in the deck, how big will be determined. Truth is, we really want to be quick and this card gives us another chance of progressing that plan. On the other hand, I really don't see the blue miracle being an effective card for our game plan. Think of it this way, the blue miracle gives us another turn to effectively progress our aggro plan and imo we already have a superior card for that strategy in Snapcaster Mage and lately that card isn't even making the maindeck. Snappy is a better answer than the timewalk. It is more versatile, can fetch up that bolt to push through those last few points of damage. It can recast that crucial stifle or spell pierce or heck you get the point. If our decks have gotten away from playing Snappy, then I see no point really in playing a timewalk spell. Also, we typically want to lay down a threat on Turn 1 and protect it, how does a timewalk spell taking up mana during the draw step protect that gameplan.

    Just my 2 cents. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words with a side order of fries!
    Since we often wish NOT to have the 3rd land-drop the extra turn won't do a lot early. Later on if you are able to reach the red zone the timewalk (extra attack phase) is just awesome. Just the extra attack phase would be awesome but it is in addition a cantrip that untaps the lands you tapped to cast the spell... Trust me: You want 2-3 in every tempo deck. Snapcaster was never good in RUG but timewalk will be!
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  6. #2406
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    I still think TM is no card for Canadian Threshold.

    Let's discuss the sideboard, mine looks like:

    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Surigcal Extraction
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Rough // Tumble
    4 Submerge

    I consider one of the Rough // Tumble and one of the REB as the flex. slots in this. Still I tend to have tough MUs versus certain combos - Reanimator + HighTide. That is why im tempted to play Counterbalance again to dominate these MUs. But do you think its because of this sideboard or more because I need to practise these MUs more intensely? What are your sideboards lookingl ike?
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  7. #2407
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Philipp so far your reasoning is TM is bullshit because ... you don't think it's good?
    Currently playing: Elves

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by illusivek View Post
    I don't mean the change the conversation topic, but I started thinking about gitaxian Probe. Gitaxian probe is stronger the more lines of play a deck has, and we have a lot. It solves the turn 1 stifle or threat gamble,
    and the tarmogoyf tap out or almost tap out issue. Because we can swap roles so easily, I feel like Gitaxian probe deserves some discussion; I think it adds consistency due to not having to gamble in those situations. It pitches to force at the worst, and let's you know how to plan your attack in the early game. I think the argument against it that there are better options is poor (deck space argument) because it cantrips into Something else for 0. 4 is almost certainly too many, but 2-3 is possible. What do you guys think ?
    I have been giving Probe a lot of thought lately, and I agree. Other points: Is a sorcery (good for goyf) and cycles for 0 (good for mongoose). I don't play a full set of Stifle myself, so I rarely experience dilemmas in the opening game, but I can think of many other reasons why knowing your opponents hand can be key to winning the opening game, including:
    -Knowing about enemy fetch, basics land, wastelands, daze, stifle, spell snare, fow, pierce, threat count, removal count. All of this can heavily influence our own line of play in the first few critical turns.

  9. #2409
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Philipp so far your reasoning is TM is bullshit because ... you don't think it's good?
    I don't think its good. Why?

    Because:
    1) Canadian is not a deck where dead handcards do not hurt.
    2) Canadian doesn't have to reach 2 Mana to cast TM
    3) Canadian isn't doing anything good with this turn besides one attack more
    4) Getting a TM countered results in such a large tempoloss that it would hurt the deck like hell
    5) We do not want to know what's on top of our library all the time - we use cantrips to find whatever we need
    6) I dont like this card in tempo

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  10. #2410
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipp802 View Post
    I don't think its good. Why?

    Because:
    1) Canadian is not a deck where dead handcards do not hurt.
    2) Canadian doesn't have to reach 2 Mana to cast TM
    3) Canadian isn't doing anything good with this turn besides one attack more
    4) Getting a TM countered results in such a large tempoloss that it would hurt the deck like hell
    5) We do not want to know what's on top of our library all the time - we use cantrips to find whatever we need
    6) I dont like this card in tempo

    Greetings
    I don't think it will be "the nuts" or at it's best in tempo, but still it will be good. concerning your arguments:
    1) True - Cannot be a 4of IMO
    2) Having 2 lands in play -> threat + open mana is a nice thing to have. Do not agree
    3) you would not play a card "get an additional attack phase, draw a card, untap 2 lands, play an addtional land"?! How often is it so close against maverick/stoneblade that they stabalize
    4)how is the tempo loss bigger than getting a tarmogoyf countered? Only spell snare does not work here..
    5) you are right: we use 8 cantrips to find what we need ... so we do not have to go the extra mile to fit in a couple of timewalks.


    Btw: Like the arguments for Gitaxian Probe. Also thought scour has more value now that the opponents top cards are more scary. It is really tough to make cuts though.
    Currently playing: Elves

  11. #2411
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Since we often wish NOT to have the 3rd land-drop the extra turn won't do a lot early. Later on if you are able to reach the red zone the timewalk (extra attack phase) is just awesome. Just the extra attack phase would be awesome but it is in addition a cantrip that untaps the lands you tapped to cast the spell... Trust me: You want 2-3 in every tempo deck. Snapcaster was never good in RUG but timewalk will be!
    So what you are saying is having one early isn't good, but seeing one in the late game would be great? We are a tempo deck right? We typically don't want to be in the late game right? Our worse matchup in Maverick will improve with the Timewalk right?

    I'd prefer not to trust you. This card doesn't belong in a tempo deck. The red miracle should fit in here first because we are trying to inflict as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Having another attack step against Maverick means nothing without delver, but having access to a 5 damage spell will be far more relevant in that matchup.

    At best I could see the blue miracle as a 1 of, but never a 2-3 of. And I'd still rather have a singleton Snappy that in the long run is more versatile.
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  12. #2412
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    I don't think it will be "the nuts" or at it's best in tempo, but still it will be good. concerning your arguments:
    1) True - Cannot be a 4of IMO
    2) Having 2 lands in play -> threat + open mana is a nice thing to have. Do not agree
    3) you would not play a card "get an additional attack phase, draw a card, untap 2 lands, play an addtional land"?! How often is it so close against maverick/stoneblade that they stabalize
    4)how is the tempo loss bigger than getting a tarmogoyf countered? Only spell snare does not work here..
    5) you are right: we use 8 cantrips to find what we need ... so we do not have to go the extra mile to fit in a couple of timewalks.


    Btw: Like the arguments for Gitaxian Probe. Also thought scour has more value now that the opponents top cards are more scary. It is really tough to make cuts though.
    1) Fine we agree
    2) I didn't put it in the right way, languagewise. I mean that our deck stumbles sometimes to reach the 2-land-mark
    3) If it so close - play more burnspells as they are more relyable when it comes to finishing down opponents
    4) Goyf is bad creature. The worst in this deck. I would exchange it if we had an equivalent new creature ( CC1 hopefuly) So yeah, I dont see a problem with my statement. Getting a CC2 Spell countered really hurts this deck
    5) Hmm...I do play 8 Cantrips, and these 8 do not enable me to find what I seek at every time, mostly though. But, we need careful consideration and planning for TimeWalk 2.0 to work, and we cant ensure this with 8 Cantrips. Jace or SDT would be needed here.

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  13. #2413
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    It remains to be seen. your arguments against timewalk do have some merit. If you are not coming to the red zone against maverick you probably won't win. If you do attack to the red zone the question is if you can win before they stabalize. In that situation an additional attack phase has a lot more value than a burn spell because it is "free" (card and mana neutral) and has the potential to be much more than 3 damage if you attack for more and/or the extra card is a threat/burn spell/wasteland,...

    However the red miracle spell is unplayable for me. you need the damage to creature/dome at a very specific time and not when you topdeck it. Can never replace lightning bolt.
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  14. #2414
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    It remains to be seen. your arguments against timewalk do have some merit. If you are not coming to the red zone against maverick you probably won't win. If you do attack to the red zone the question is if you can win before they stabalize. In that situation an additional attack phase has a lot more value than a burn spell because it is "free" (card and mana neutral) and has the potential to be much more than 3 damage if you attack for more and/or the extra card is a threat/burn spell/wasteland,...

    However the red miracle spell is unplayable for me. you need the damage to creature/dome at a very specific time and not when you topdeck it. Can never replace lightning bolt.
    Agreed, I never mentioned replacing Lightning Bolt, that would be silly.
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14 NIV


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  15. #2415
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    I don't think neither Wrath nor Temp. are candidates for Threshold for all sort of different reasons that were (gladly) mentioned here in former posts.
    Deciding at which time you throw Burn, tempo-out the opponent or do whatever this decks does best is shitty when it is locked to the drawstep, period.
    Temp. is a damn busted card in control-decks, which are going to be a tougher MU.
    Outside of having the chance to Spell Pierce it early on, good players will find the given time to make this a must-counter that draws out a REB or Force which can be very painful in front of other control elements or must-counters.
    Stoneblade benefits propably the most from it and straight Uw lists with Wrath of God and a stable manabase could be pretty annoying.
    Outside of considering going back to more REB/PB, time will tell what is to do here. A huge upside might be that people start to overplay blue decks in general in the near future which should make this deck even more viable.
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  16. #2416

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Have you guys considered replacing nimble mongoose with vexing devil in thresh? What are your thoughts on this card?

  17. #2417

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Do you want to play Lava Spike? Do you want to play Lava Spike +1 damage?

    If the answer to these questions is yes, go play UR.

    If the answer to these questions is no, well, you know what the Devil is good for.
    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    look at this thread! It's a bunch of people complaining about this set because there are TOO MANY PLAYABLE CARDS OH GOD NO NOT THAT!!!!!!!!

  18. #2418
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by cheerios View Post
    Have you guys considered replacing nimble mongoose with vexing devil in thresh? What are your thoughts on this card?
    No.

  19. #2419

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Was just trying to get some opinions on it. Yeah, I still agree that nimble is still better than the devil. It will probably just get hit by removal or will always get sacrificed.

  20. #2420
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

    Do not cut any of the 1 drops. Cut Goyfs but no 1 drops...*aarrrghhh*
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