I run 4 forces main at my local onllly because you can have a 3 round tourney there and face only storm dredge hightide. but when i go to other places to play 3 is absolutely what i prefer, as you said forcing twice feels awful.
I was about to ask if anyone was running Spell Pierce and Stifles alongside each other or if the general consensus was that it was too much. It's good to see someone else is thinking it. I'm thinking that my counter suite is going to be like so...Originally Posted by Blitzbold
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
I could imagine dropping a Pierce to make Stifle or Daze into a 4-of though. I guess it depends on your meta, but I'm not a fan of only 3 Force. FoW is the best MD answer we have to a KotR and most of our conditional counters are easy to pitch by that point in the game. Also, even though Combo shouldn't be a problem with Pierce, there's a ton of it in my meta (of various kinds), so I'd rather not take the chance. What do people think of cutting a Goyf to make room for additional counters/burn (as opposed to dropping a Goyf for a GSZ)?
So, I've been playing this deck at my local for the past 8 weeks. I've won 7 of 8. The tourneys are small. 7 to 13 players, some of which have casual decks. The players with the real decks I can just outplay or are favored Match Ups. Here is the list I am currently running:
Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning (formerly 2 Forked Bolt and a Green Sun's Zenith)
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction (formerly 2 Scavenging Ooze and 1 Surgical Extraction)
3 Submerge
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
The deck is really solid. Im gonna be taking it to the StarCityGames 5K in Columbus when that rolls around. Maybe the one in Michigan too. Great deck.
Anybody have any thoughts on my cross between blue zoo and thresh
8 fetch lands
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
1 taiga
4 wasteland
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 stifle
4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
3 kird ape
3 tarmogoyf
Sb
4 spell peirce
4 submerge
2 sulfuric vortex
2 ancient grudge
3 tormod’s crypt
The idea is a normal thresh deck with the aggresion ramped up slightly ( more burn and 7 creatures that are good on turn one)
So I've tried the Drew Lewin's build and I dont know if it's because I'm used to play Stifle or Spell Pierce, but I didn't felt so powerful while playing that deck without the usual 4 Stifles, I'll be surely sticking with Stifle in future...
Also Kird Ape is terrible, don't play that.
I would max both goose and goyf before looking into any other creatures. Also without complete overload like zoo the ape is going to be very underwhelming, plus they run jittes and tons of burn/spot removal. If you want a more aggressive list than thresh id look at hanni's blue sligh or blue zoo itself (not a fan of this one, seems suboptimal to other decks its trying to emulate).The idea is a normal thresh deck with the aggresion ramped up slightly ( more burn and 7 creatures that are good on turn one)
Force as a 4-of obv. increases your chance to see one in your opening 7. I'd argue though that even when only playing 3 you'll draw into one in time when your tempo-oriented counters won't cut it anymore against Maverick. A possible scenario includes burning their first hierarch, stifling a fetch and / or wasting their first non-basic. All of this keeps Daze active for quite some time. KotR remains a 3-drop after all. You can race or burn every other thread they might deploy short of maybe Ooze. Mother of Runes + Scryb Ranger can also be a nuisance, but Mom can only grant protection for so long. Also, this is where Canadian's board begins to shine (if build properly for this MU).
Storm Combo is a good matchup on paper, but don't underestimate it's power in the hands of a skilled pilot. Many players won't take the time needed to learn their deck's nuances, though, so I guess there are quite some mediocre players taking Storm to a tournament only to shelf it away in disgust afterwards.
There are some very strong lists out there containing lots of cantrips, basics and Past in Flames on top which are quite difficult to beat. Remember that you still have to win in a reasonable amount of time if you survived it's first onslaught or after denying them their first 2 or 3 mana sources. For the reason of combo I'd definitely pack the 4th Force in the board. You'll need it.
I am playing 11 creatures for quite some time and haven't looked back. 3 Goyfs are sufficient in my eyes.
+1
+1 again
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
do you ever worry this is insufficient for the mirror? or do rephrase, do you feel like your a slight underdog in a mirror with an opponent running 4
My only concern is with the amount of 1-drop counters you're probably going to only have mana open for either Stifle or Spell Pierce but not both. That's perhaps why it's an either/or debate. Just guessing though, best of luck with that configuration - let us know how it goes.
Stephen Menendian has been hyping up his Delver + Temporal Mastery brews. I wouldn't exactly complain if someone decided to leak the lists from his set review.
https://twitter.com/#!/SMenendian/st...22085962375169
The rational-minded skeptic in me is aware he's just full of himself, but the Big Foot hunter in me wants to know if it's real.
He's typically full of shit and ignorant of legacy from what I've read in the past, but from personal testing I just don't think you can abuse the conditional Time Walk without opening yourself up to being "out threated" by your lack of counters in RUG altho' it may find a home in U/r Delver.
Menendian wrote,
To which, we can all stop at Turn 2. Nothing of value is gained by putting Mastery in the sequence, because more often than not, the other tempo elements can be played for cheaper mana and greater effect.
I am not convinced that playing Temporal Mastery in CanThresh leads to more victories than without.
West side
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I get the interaction with Brainstorm in this deck, but focusing on resolving Temporal Mastery weakens the overall effect of Brainstorm, since you're using it as a setup tool, not a hand optimization tool in the late game. In the above scenario, if your Temporal Mastery gets Dazed, you're going to feel like an idiot while stranding awful cards in your hand.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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I am dubious about Temporal Mastery in legacy, especially in a deck like this... However, Menedian brings up an interesting point regarding the card's utility over the course of a game, rather than just focusing on the opening hand argument. Suppose you get to cast two Temporal Masterys within the first '6' turns. You will have likey developed your board completely to an end-game state, whereas your opponent is still stuck on his 4th turn.
Running 4 FoW and 4 Brainstorm does make it less likely for the card to be completely stranded in your hand, and even if you have no board presence a free cycling effect is not the worst thing in the world.
FWIW I still don't think the card is worth including in an aggressive shell like RUG, but I could be wrong. I've tested a bit running 3 of them and the card never seemed particularly amazing. It vaguely reminds me of Snapcaster Mage in this regard -- definitely cool in other decks, but ultimately not worth the slots in RUG due to its clunkiness.
While I agree the card is not good in Canadian Thresh and that Menendian is full of himself, I'm still curious enough to want to see his proposed list. His proposed "Cast Brainstorm at the end of the second turn" line alone is enough to make me want to disregard anything he has to say about the format, but I love to rubberneck a wreck from the highway.
hmmmmm
so him and john both said the same exact thing....
i wouldn't be surprised if he bought 1000 temporal masteries and is now thinking he needs to sell them
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...256#post639256
I listened to his Avacyn Restores set-review podcast and my understanding was that he was a little suspicious about Temporal Mastery having a strong effect on Legacy at the start of the conversation. Then the other guy (sorry, don't know who he is) went on and on about how insanely broken TM will be, infact he couldn't restrain himself and got back to the awesomness of TM after they started talking about Griselbrand. After that point I felt like Steven started agreeing with him and I assumed that he started sayin "yeah yeah I agree" just to hush him up and move on since this guy was overhyped and wouldn't accept any reasonable argument why TM would be just "normal".
If his article now says how broken TM will be and how awesome it'll be in RUG I'd say he is trying to manipulate the market.
TM isn't worth it and thresh is arguably one if the better existing decks to abuse it. I tested it pretty extensively and while it can occasionally win games when I had multiple creatures on the board its very easy to whiff with and takes valuable slots away from counter magic. The most common instance I encountered was having my TM blown out by wasteland or my own dazes in must counter situations giving them a timewalk of sorts haha. I want it to be good just not seeing it. Legacy itself is broken and extra turns just aren't as powerful as many of the cards and interactions already common to the format. I think IBA said it well in the shitsunami thread when he said legacy is harder to break then people think. The most broken cards are those that are convenient, which TM is not...or some such thing..all paraphrased since I'm on my phone too lazy to quote right now but it was a pretty well informed post I was impressed.
Hi all :)
What is you'r SB plan against Esperblade, Blade Control and Maverick?
And what is the strategy against Enchantress?
Sideboard options change based upon how you play the deck, but there are a lot of options to chose from. For Esper blade some of the best choices are Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Sulfur Elemental, Pyroclasm. You replace your Force of Wills with Pyro/REB because they do basically the same thing in this match-up and are much more efficient. Force can generate really bad card advantage, and this is a match up where losing card advantage means losing the game.
For Maverick, you want to aim for serious hate cards. Submerge is probably your first choice. It generates tempo, can be hard removal when stacked on top of an opponents shuffle effect, and is ...... free :P Next up is Mind Harness, I like submerge better since the amount of land this deck runs makes harness a bit restrictive. But some people like it, and it's just a style thing. After that, you might want to consider Sulfur Elemental again. Being able to knock out Thalia and Mom is very powerful in this match up. Even as a 1/1 this card is usually worth it.
Enchantress is actually a pretty easy match-up if you know what you're doing. First off, the only thing (and I mean ONLY) worth countering is draw effects, and win conditions. This means your countering Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence, Words of War, and Sigil of the Empty Throne. If they can't draw cards incessantly, none of their other enchantments mean much. An Elephant Grass is cute, but it can only last for so long. Solitary Confinement cant even be played without a draw effect on the board. The rest of the deck is just enablers and mana ramp. Post board you need to watch out for Choke, but you should be keeping all of your FoW in the deck, so save one of that.
Good luck!
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