What are the strengths and weaknesses of UGb compared to UGr? Does the extra draw and discard outweigh the reach of burn?
It's nice to see someone willing to play a Tempo Threshold (T T) list. Although I haven't played with an UGB list, I do know what is good in T T list after testing.
First:
12 creatures is way to much I think. You'll get too much creatures in your opening hands. This means that the strategy of a T T deck (disrupting your opponents manabase/attacking their cantrip's/daze-ing) becomes weak when playing an 9-creature base. In short: when you're cutting cards that disrupts your opponent, you'll get them less frequent in your opening hand. When you'll play more creatures (so for instance 12), you'll get more creatures in your opening hand. With a deck as T T you want to disrupt your opponent first with everything u got, before topdecking a creature.
If you want to play a UG Black disrupting deck that plays goyf, I think u can better play Team America, since it does exactly the same but then better than UGB threshold. It's ofcourse easy to say stuff like this, however it's what I believe is the truth.
Probably i'll get some hate mails after this, but playing a black T T list that only plays: 3 daze, 3 spell snare, 3 stifle is just asking for troubles. Another thing is that the removal is pretty weak. You'll have to spend 3 mana for a removal card that cannot get rid of Counterbalance (3 mana is pretty high for a deck like this) and Ghastly Demise that cannot target Tombstalker and Confidant is pretty bad.
Thoughtseize is pretty bad in a T T list since you want to keep mana open all the time to cast Stifles, Spell Snares (and Brainstorms). Tempo Threshold for me means playing everything on instant speed, it's the strenght of the deck. Playing turn 1 ponder's or thoughtseize's is not the way to play these kind of decks and playing a lot of these cards would be bad, because you'll play them in turn 2/3.
So you'll should play the Red Tempo Threshold list. The burn is pretty awesome, althought they may look pretty weak. Killing your opponents goyf (Fire/Bolt), tapping them to do lethal damage (Ice) or just simply bouncing them (RR) (and do lethal damage/and then spell snare-ing them) is awesome. If they are bad in a particular matchup, it's easy to board them out. This is because of the fact that your sideboard is pretty straightforward.
If you're still in doubt just ask more questions.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
If you play that list, do not play his manabase. Basic lands will lose you the game in this deck. That is also why he has only 3 wastelands, to keep 14 blue sources. And don't play Breeding pool, my god, anyone who boards in extirpate against you is going to lose no matter what.
According to deckcheck, 37.5% of UGB Thrash (Bob, Goyf, Goose, Stifle, Snare, Seize, Waste) plays a single MD Breeding Pool, whereas 3% of UGR Thrash does the same.
Obviously UGR is much more represented, but what do you think is the reasoning behind all these UGB players' decision to run the Breeding Pool? Do you think they just straight up copied the creator's list, or is there an actual reason (beyond the Extirpate problem, which, you're right, isn't much of a problem, because if it was, you'd assume it would be a problem for UGR as well)?
--What about Snuff Out? It doesn't necessarily cost mana, and it gets around Counterbalance and Spell Snare (and really Daze, since you typically will play it without spending mana on it). Spell Snare and Daze should help take care of Bob in those matchups where you see him, and you can take care of Tombstalker in whatever way seems reasonable.
For the record, I really like Team America; I like to be actively peeing in my opponent's cornflakes rather than passively denying everything they do. Just felt like tossing my two cents in here.
I have never seen anybody kill Goyf with a Bolt. I agree that burn is nice because of the flexibility (it can kill all kinds of little dudes or be pointed at your opponent's face), but Goyf isn't the only problem.The burn is pretty awesome, althought they may look pretty weak. Killing your opponents goyf (Fire/Bolt), tapping them to do lethal damage (Ice) or just simply bouncing them (RR) (and do lethal damage/and then spell snare-ing them) is awesome. If they are bad in a particular matchup, it's easy to board them out.
How, for that matter, does UGr deal with ANT? Daze and Spell Snare help, I'm sure, but were I playing Thresh I'd want maindeck Thoughtseize and sideboard Duress or Therapy for that.
@Berzerked; I'm guessing the presence of Breeding Pools is either a dearth of originality or of money. I've been known to use shocklands in Legacy tournaments simply because I couldn't scrape up the duals. Of course, I also know an irritating number of people who will copy a deck card for card and go robot with it at a tournament. (It's only tolerable because I've been known to think while I play Magic, which is an important advantage when your opponent isn't capable of it.)
I've been finding Mongoose to be very lackluster as of late, to combat this I've been test UGW Tempo Thresh.
Here's the list I've been working on:
// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [AR] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [PS] Rushing River
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 4 [IN] Disrupt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
The only slot I'm not entirely sure about is Counterspell, it has been for the most part solid, but occasionally the UU is difficult.
I find the thing that makes TT so powerfull is the reach the burn gives you. F/I is really amazing aswell. STP counteracts this. There for I think the ugw shell is simply stronger in the more controlling role.
The first thing is, you basically have 4 win conditions in the deck, and they are going to get hit immediately with spot removal. You have no untargetable guys, or counter top to protect your guys. This will make matches such as landstill, ITF, and survival almost auto losses game 1 because of all the recursion and spot removal flying around.
If you were to try White, go with something similar to this list which recently top 4 at Magic-League. It runs Misdirection MB to alleviate running no shroud creatures. Quirion Dryad in a tempo build like below will grow much bigger than Pridemage. At the end of the day, I think testing with show that Red is the splash to go with, since its main/side board cards really support its strategy.
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Predict
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
Last edited by kabal; 05-25-2009 at 08:40 PM.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
@ Canadian Threshold
I have played Canadian Threshold last Saturday the second time and was quite satisfied with it. My no.1 issue is the sideboard(-plan). I played the following SB:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Disrupt
I was really impressed by the power that comes from playing Needle vs. decks which are playing Top. The split of Submerge/Mind Harness was due not having four Submerge and actually not knowing which card is stronger. As far as Disrupt goes, I really love it, but not in this deck. I used to play it MD in GAT in T1, but when you opponent plays around Daze it’s a lot worse.
Therefore I am testing this SB at the moment:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Mind Harness
4 Pyroblast/REB
2 Ancient Grudge
But there is a lot of competion for the 15 slots. Or meta is quite mixed, therefore I don’t want to cut the Pyroclasm because they make the Goblin and Merfolk matchup a lot easier. The two Ancient Grudge were added because I lost the final two games of the tournament vs. CotV set at one. You might want to change these to Krosan Grips, but I don’t like playing too many cards with CC=3 (I play two Rushing River main). Other cards which I would like to play in the SB are Price of Progress (the better players in my local shop play 3-4 colour LS or ITF) and maybe some graveyard-hate (but there are only 1-2 Ichorid-players here and vs. recurring-engines (LftL, A. Ruins, Stronghold) Needle is, in my opinion, a better option.
All in all I think that because the maindeck is set in stones we should focus on the SB and its use/plan vs. the different decks.
What he meant was in Goyf-Goyf wars. Obviously burn isn't a great answer to Goyf by itsself.
Against ANT you really don't need MD Thoughtseize+Sb Therapy/Duress. A UGR maindeck is fine against it. Just Stifle fetchlands whenever you can and Daze Ponders/Brainstorms/Mystical Tutors. Waste/Stifle is very strong against ANT. In the SB you can play Pyroblast which is also pretty goosd aginst ANT. The MU for UGR should be positive if you play correct and your opponent doesn't play perfectly.
Team Nijmegen
Have you guys been trouble with Tombstalker with UGR-thresh? Before somebody say "just counter it" there is deck what plays counter too (dreadstalker). Today tested with UGR-thresh against dreadstalker.deck and went many times on situation where i bounce that and he could hardcast it straight or remove couple cards and then play it around daze/with counter backup. Those burns kill it yes, and Ice tap it, but still its just temporary solution if other burn gets countered. Have you dedicated any sidecard slots for those big beefs = stalker and nought? Somebody said before about that Sower, and that could be good card if we play more lands.. Thinking that tormod's crypt could be a good answer for that without dedicating cards just for that.
Answers for Stalker:
Wasteland/Stifle to keep them off BB
Preemptive Clique
Rushing River/Wipe Away
Ice
Fire+Bolt/Bolt+Bolt
SB preemptive Crypt
SB Submerge
SB Firespout+Bolt/Firespout+Fire/Pyroclasm+Bolt
Obviously some of these are worse than others. I have seen Sower/Control Magic in SB before, though. Try the Clique.
how do we side against red aggro decks (goyf sligh naya zoo loam), merfolk ant, landstill baseruption, mirror, evagreen and goblins. with a standard sideboard consiting of submerge, ancient grudge, pyroclasm, rebs krosan grip
I guess I'll post the list I've been working on for a while, but its not completely tuned.
Critters:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator
Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Krosan Grip
Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Grim Lavamancer is probably the thing that sticks out most in this list, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's been incredible. It wins Goyf wars and wrecks the tribal decks and little Exalted fellows that are becoming more and more popular as of late. I'm much happier with it than I am with Mongoose.
I don't love Trygon, but I'm not sure that there's a better option. Burning Tree Shaman seems like the most likely candidate.
I really like the list and I think it would be nice to test out. I'd test out clique in the predator slot.
For those that have tried it, how has Null Rod tested out main deck/sb?
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