Next Level Threshold is a completely different deck. The centrepiece of Canadian Thresh is Nimble Mongoose, and its abscence in NLT is evidence of a strategic disparity between the two decks. NLT is a control deck that can pursue an aggressive gameplan with the correct sequence of draws. CT is a tempo deck that assumes a control role when it is necessary to do so. The two have an immense amount of commonality, in terms of card selection, but the way the cards are used in practice (F/I and Bolt in particular) certainly varies, on average, between the two decks.
Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how does Canadian Thresh do in this particular meta? It seems at least to me like it is losing its popularity.
So i played the second tournament with the basic UGR List, running 1 Vendillion and 1 Rushing River in the flexible slots on a 20 people tournament placed as 10th after 5 Games but i don't think that the Deck was bad i had following Matchups:
Game 1 - Mono Black Pox 0:2
Game 2 - Combo Elves 2:0
Game 3 - Mono Black control 2:0
Game 4 - Dredge 0:2
Game 5 Goblins 2:0
I had following Sideboard:
3 Tormod's crypt
4 Submerge
3 Spell pierce
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroblast
So for the 2 loses i had it was really close to an auto-lose as i played Mono Black Pox by myself a long time and still beside tournaments i knew it was hard and my opponent also knew how to play it, same was true for the Dredge player
after the Goblins and Elves Matchups i feld pretty sure that Pyroclasm is definitly the better choice compared to Firespout as both decks where pretty fast so the difference of CC 2 (Pyroclasm) and CC 3 (Firespout) made a higher relevance as i thought when i read it in threads like this. Also i never had the feeling that the 2 damage of Pyroclasm was worse than 3 maybe it makes sense on the Merfolk games but even here its definitly possible to play around lords as a familiar player to this deck.
Since it was the 4th Tournament at this Meta i had Pox/Mono Black matchups nearly 8-10 times in the path and also failed with Dreadstill/Supreme blue against them i more and more feel like packing some stuff against black on my list as dredge seemed to be to rough even if i would have run 4-5 Sideboard cards against it as a good Dredge player knows how to play around crypt/relic and after some discussion with him after the game we made i am sure that ravenous trap is the only card that screws them if played on the right moment so i really think about using those slots for more winable matchups or just cut the crypts down on 2 for the loam matchup where i really liked them.
I also tested my list a lot of times against competive Reanimator lists but the results where same as on Dredge, facing a good opponent the crypts are nearly useless.
Is there actually a good option for UGR Thresh against black? I think black gets more and more popular on the current meta (not only the on i played) as they are pretty strong against those Tribal/Bant lists and the tournaments i played in the past where full of different Decks like BWG/Mono B or lists like UBR Faeries where Tombstalker really hurts us and since the lists don't run green anymore submerge was useless here.
ps: The one Rushing River i played instead of the 2nd Clique won me 2 games and would have been totally amasing if i would have em on some other games so i wouldn't cut the bounce at all.
I'd like to hear the answer from some expert of the archetype, too.Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Sorry I must've missed something.
Of what meta exactly are you talking about?
Canadian is basically always around even in matchups (of COURSE there are exeptions but this is roughly the right sketch) - heavily depending on the player's and opponents skill with their decks.
Team Legal Actions.
I'm referring to something along the lines of Merfolk, ANT, pro Bant and Reanimator.
Merfolk should be slightly positive for CT postboard because all the REBs and PBlasts; but personally I don't find ANT to be that really easy because CT plays 20 counters and StifleWaste, and I'm saying this being a good ANT player. It's quite easy to setup a strong manabase and sculpt a hand with at least double chant as long as the pressure on your neck is given by a 1/1 and you're allowed to take like 12 turns to find the mana even in form of non-fetchlands, and the turn your opponent will play tarmogoyf, he will arguably tap out at least half of its manabase so that he won't be able to Spell Snare your Infernal Tutor and to Stifle your SDT-->Bomb or the Tendrils after chant-duress wars.
Against Pro Bant, Rhox War Monk can give serious problems if resolved, since it screws CT's gameplan. Natural Order is an autowin from there if it resolves early enough. Of course post board there are the Blasts, but still pro Bant can operate fetching out basics and relying on the hierarch, and as soon as you stop applying pressure on their mana and they land a SDT, the game is going to slowly grow more and more difficult for you, as they're able to find their bombs and you can't have answers for anything. In general, however, it seems to me that a resolved SDT is a very great threat to such an extremized tempo deck, threatening its chances to hold the grip on all the opponent's (key) plays as the game goes on and on. I'm not surprised seeing good players FOWing a turn1 SDT.
Well, about Reanimator, if it's well built, it can get rid of your hard counters and play around your Snare on their Exhume; a reanimated Iona naming red is pretty much GG, and Sphinx can cause serious troubles as well.
Maybe it's just me who's not competent enough with the deck, but lately after having played it for a sufficient number of games I've found, too, that this deck is losing something of its power from a deep comparison against the actual tiers, at least considering how it was a blast some time ago. Of course it can play around even in the majority of the matchups, but sometimes you also happen to face random 42 creatures.dec in the tourneys or MonoBlackFantasy.dec, against which this deck sucks hard pretty much.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I mostly agree with you here piceli.
Merfolk preboard can give you a headache.
Aether Vial and chained standstills are never nice, especially when you try to win the ressource race by countering the opponents creatures.
Vial is very bad news and a must counter.
However sneaking in some early mongoose is great and you can take the initiative on the board here.
Also drawing in one of your eight mainboard burn spells is also quite devastating for the merfolk player especially when you can trade 2 for 1 with them. A problem is when the opponent gets multiple wastelands and cuts you off of a color (most problem would be green) which can take you off charge and give the merfolk player a heavy advantage. Another problem is that stifle is nearly dead in this mu.
Postboard you should get the overhand by boarding in 6-8 hate cards. Usually you can await some blue blasts from the merfolk guy but that is basically it.
A matchup marginally in favor of the expirienced CT player.
Further I regard the combo matchup as slightly positive.
Stiflewaste is a house in this matchup especially when you are facing one of those (slower) SDT Ant lists.
Screwing over their fetches and duals paired with multiple removal and burn for postboard swarms is a heavy threat for any ANT player.
Postboard you will also have even more removal in the form of Spell Pierce and Red Blasts while the ANT player won't get anything of relevance.
(-> MU is more positive than the merfolkmatchup)
As for ProBant I think it is best to say that this matchup plays heavily like the old Ugw ***** lists with one difference.
ProBant has a lot more bombs.
The progenitus combo is hilarious and nearly unbeatable when once on the table and Countertop is an immanent threat you have to account for.
The key to beating this is (sadly - because not always manageable to do) to screw over their manabase and hope that you will have the counter for their keycards.
Getting submerge and Red Blasts postboards is a huge plus on our side which will make life a lot easier and give a slight advantage postboard but this MU stays very draw-and skill dependable.
I consider this MU as even.
Reanimator:
CT is one of the decks that can fight better against reanimator than other decks can do.
Usually having more than one counter and lots of cantrips is a good protection against duress hands of the opponent.
Basically a matchup that plays like the ANT matchup. Reanimator decks usually have a weak manabase of which the CT player can prey on and
in which Daze is a huge factor.
The only tip for this mu is that you have to play it like the ANT matchup with a different kill.
€dit: Random Matchups
CT loses hard to janky (not in the negative meaning of the word) decks.
A monoB deck with innocent blood, hymns, stalkers, wastes , ports and other B goodies is very weird to play against.
Usually the ct countersuit is the best bet in this matchups while stiflewaste is a total waste of cardboard in here.
However, those decks won't come near the top8 niveau and if you can dodge them in the first rounds you can be sure that you
made it safe on the other site and will face the usual decks.
Also Poxesque decks (especially Brot's Trisomy21) have a VERY GOOD (nearly unwinnable) MU against us CT-player.
Team Legal Actions.
I think one big reason of the "weakness" of Can T. is that its still a kind of indirect tier 1, every legacy player will expect this Deck and its also a common known how to beat it. Also i feel like a lot of basic strategies/cards from legacy got raped in the past since a lot of "kiddie" strategies where set up for Legacy for me Decks like Bant/Merfolk/NO Progenitus etc are strong no question but i remember when legacy got really popular it was more a mix of vintage and extended and by now i more and more feel like its getting something like a bursted standard/extended.
But like Piceli said the deck is not bad at all cause the main strength of Can T. is the flexibility to face every kind of deck, since i played it on tournaments twice, i run it since a year now and its still possible to win just by playing aggro against control or playing controlish against aggro. For the technical matchups like dredge, combo, reanimator etc imo its also not a auto-loss at all but it really depends on the draw+experience of your opponent.
Side Note: For the Next Level T. discussion i didn't try the UGR Faerie list that much (i count it as the same). i don't believe that keeping the mana denial plan and color combination for a deck that plays for the midgame is bad, as everyone here should agree that mid-lategame is the death for Can T.
I also noticed that there where a lot of Faerie lists which performed very good on the last weeks but other than the UBR list i don't believe that the Next Level T- can generate more preasure than the classic list does.
Add on:
I played Canadian T. on a bigger tournament with around 60 people playing 6 rounds and went 2 - 3 - 1
Game 1 - 2:1 against ANT
Game 2 - 0:2 against ANT
Game 3 - 2:0 against Mono black Control
Game 4 - 1:1 No Goyf U/W
Game 5 - 0:2 Dragon Stompy
Game 6 - 1:2 Aggro Loam
Since i played the deck very intensiv the last time i depend on my bad luck on 2 matches (Loam+Dragon Stompy) for Dragon Stompy i wasn't able to stop a first turn Blood Moon in Game 1 and a Trinisphere + Golem on Game 2.
On the Loam matchup i feld like it was pretty fair but after keeping him on 2 basic lands i wasn't able to get rid off a 8/8 Countryside Crusher (it was post board and i had 1 Rushing River 3 Submerge and 2 Mind Harness but didn't draw any of those)
After all even if the results where not that good at all i think i din't lose any of the games by making mistakes and still think the Matchups on the current meta are pretty good for Canadian. I missed games against Countertop/Bant as i wouldn't like them at all but would like to get some experience against both Decks.
Also on both tournaments i played this month i feld like cutting a Spell Snare and maybe one Ponder cut give me the opportunity to pack some more stuff into the Mainboard but i am not sure what to pick up, i always have the problem that i can't completly disrupt the opponent and lose facing a single threat (even if i bounce it) by losing the tempo.
I'm curious about why you would seek first to cut ponder or spell snare instead of utilizing one of the established flex slots. What are you running there currently?
It's pretty bold to claim that none of your 8 game losses involved play mistakes. I'm pretty well practiced with the deck and I find it very easy to make multiple mistakes per game. I would argue that the last line of your post is indicative of at least the occasional mistake.
By playing different sideboards on both tournaments i played this maindeck both times:
4 Goofy
4 Mongoose
1 Clique
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Rushing River
4 Daze
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
6 Fetches
I rarely played 2-3 times spell snares on both tournaments and since i boarded them out quiet often over daze as i had to play the tempo role all the time i have the feeling that 3 are enough if i keep one in the sideboard so i would board out dazes for spell pierces + 1 snare or pyroblasts + 1 snare. Also i really don't often use Ponder at all, i know that filtering out of the deck is important but in 90% of the games (also non tournament games counted) i keep mana open to counter/react on the opponents play i even use brainstorm more about turn 3 or later. Also i thought about cutting one fire/Ice but the card is so f****** flexible that i like it more for a cantrip than the 4th ponder.
I know people agree that at least for the 2 flexible slots the deck is stuck but good players know how to handle canadian t. they try to play around our dazes/stifles so i don't have the mana to cast ponders beside creatures/counters on the early game.
my first idea i wanna test out for now is seal of removal for the maindeck as i can use them against big creatures to stay agressiv beside tapping them out with ice. I used the Seal a long time in different UGR lists where i didn't want to splash white for swords so i gonna give it a try. Also its a nice play to drop it beside a tarmogoyf beeing able to save it from spot removal too.
the Maindeck i currently try looks like this:
4 Goofy
4 Mongoose
3 Spell Snare (-1)
3 Ponder (-1)
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Rushing River
3 Seal of Removal
Sideboard:
3 Spell pierce
1 Spell snare
2 pyroblast
4 submerge
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pyroclasm
I am not completly sure if i wanna use only 2 trygons for Artifact/Enchantment removal, but it seals with most of the decks where we need this kind fo hate as they can destroy more than a grip and ancient grudge/explosives etc don't hit both artifacts and enchantments.
I also cutted the clique over the rushing river as clique was more or less a 3/1 flying creature with flash when i used while rushing river won me 4 games on tournaments by now, also its the only way to deal with a non-creature threat for me thats why i wanna keep it. I am sure the first game i play without clique i will miss it and of course lose, but same will happen for the river :D
ps: I feld really pitty after shuffling my deck together after turn 2 on both Matches against dragon stompy, is there any way to beat it with canadian t. beside getting all their spells on turn 1-3 countered? Once they drop Blood Moon/Trinisphere i can't win at all.
I started playing this deck again in preparation for GP Madrid (I played it before only in a few tournaments in 2008, then I started switching decks over and over). In my testing (mostly in our weekly local Legacy Tournament with 25-35 Players (33-56 at the 4 GP Trials)) the Spell Snares were not very impressive, so I tried Spell Pierce instead, which made a lot of the matches easier. For example, most of the problematic spells in "Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors"-Decks are non-creature-spells like CotV, Trinisphere or Blood Moon. The ANT match up got better too, and even Enchantress wasn't such a problem preboard anymore. But sometimes, in particular against some heavy creature based decks like Zoo or Merfolk, drawing to many Pierce became a problem. So I decided to Split Spell Snare / Spell Pierce 3 / 3, so that its more unlikely to draw to many of one kind. With 8 Cantrips it is not a Problem to get them when needed, and for some of the worst Spells for the Deck, like CotV@1, Standstill and CB I had even more outs. The problem was, that I needed two more slots. I couldn't cut the 2 Vendilion Cliques, they are way to good. So the most unimpressive spell in the deck, Fire / Ice was reduced by two copies. I mean it's a good spell concerning its flexibility, but I think the card is just to fair for Legacy (And 2 mana is a lot for Canadian Thresh).
So here is what I played in Madrid:
Mainboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire / Ice
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
# 60
Sideboard:
2 Trygon Predator
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mind Harness
3 Submerge
4 Pyroblast
# 15
In the end I finished 12-5 (67th) with 2 Byes, with losses against UBr Fearies, NO Bant, ANT, Zoo and 1 Deck I can't remember (Maybe another Bant Deck). I'am very satisfied with the list, the only thing I'm not sure about is the 3 / 3 Split Mind Harness / Submerge in the Sideboard. Maybe 3 Mind Harness are to much and I'd also like to have a card against Tombstalker, that doesn't require my opponent to play with forests, maybe something like Curse of Chains or Narcolepsy...
For now I stopped playing the Deck to try a few different Decks, but thanks to Spell Pierce, I think it still has it's spot in the Metagame...
@Tangle.Wire:
I'm guessing some of those games where you were not quite able to finish your opponent off through his threat might have ended sooner and in your favour if you had more aggressively utilized ponder to search for threats of your own. A common mistake with this deck is failing to realize when you need to assume an aggressive posture and seek out win conditions in favour of leaving mana free to control your opponent.
With regard to the Dragon Stompy matchup I have a few comments. While that deck will occasionally nut draw you, it will also mulligan into oblivion sometimes. You really do need to actively mulligan into early disruption (FoW, preferably) in order to avoid being blown out by big turn 1 and turn 2 plays. That being said, even in the case of a turn 1 blood moon, you still have an out: the deck has 20 points of burn in it. (No, I'm not joking.)
@Azrael4:
It's nice to hear you had success with maindeck pierces. I have been running some myself and I love them! How were the cliques in Madrid?
Ok back from 2 days of testing the sideboard options i canceled the plan of playing seal of removal for quiet the same reason azrael played spell pierce in the maindeck. The seals definitly dealed good with creatures but i still had the same problem like before as i am still not able to handle threats at all, also on the last games i made yesterday i figured out that its true that we have to cancel the threats on turn 1-3 at all so spell pierce worked out here best (no news at all)
I also tinkered around with my sideboard and found another way to develop the deck postboard, here is what i came up with:
4 Goofy
4 Mongoose
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
18 Lands as usual
Sideboard:
Explanation:
First here is the list of cards i tested at all:
- Krosan Grip
- Ancient Grudge
- Hydroblast
- Seal of Removal
- Echoing Truth
- Rushing River (additional to the mainboard)
- Mind Harness
- Crucible of Worlds
- Pithing Needle
- Trygon Predator
As some will wonder about the graveyard hate i posted some posts before that i wanted to cut it out of the deck as i never won with them on the matchups and still have the feeling that for myself the better way will be to set up the sideboard against the other matchups.
Since i started with typical net-deck sideboards like 2-3 Krosan Grips, Hydro+Pyro blasts etc i always feld like the cards most of the time help only on a single matchup but since i play the deck all the time by now i love it for its flexibility.
After picking up all the cards a friend asked me if i ever tried to play a sideboard like nassif did on his baseruption but i totally disagreed as the deck doesn't use divining tops or confidants so i wouldn't draw the cards at all.
So more or less for the casual tests i came up with another idea and really had succes by playing following sideboard:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
Like i said on the past tournament i often boarded out 1 ponder without having much trouble, so i had the idea to change 1 ponder for a mystical tutor post board as it can get any card i use on the sideboard, also i tried Chain of vapor, and wondered why it never has been listed on this deck, of course it sucks if we have a tarmogoyf and they bounce it by sacrificing a land, but since i often try to drop a mongoose first i can play around its draw-back, get a bouncer for cc1 and also won't get hurt by it even if i had tarmogoyf when the mana denial worked out cause they won't sacrifice their land at all. For the Grip and Grudge split i figured out that grip is needed for countertop games while the grudge is great against aggros with jitte, vials or decks with chalice/trinisphere etc. Also i love it as i can flashback it.
I played a lot of games yesterday but i still agree the list will need a bit more testing, but i am very supprised how good it worked by the beginning, i also think playing 3 spell pierce main will be awesome but i won't cut fire/ice like azrael did since i really needed them on a lot of games before.
The Cliques were amazing the entire weekend, and I would never run this Deck without them, except for maybe a heavy tribal and/or Zoo Meta. They steal games in so many different Situations (I won for example some Games against White Stax, where he has Magus, Trinisphere and CotV and the Clique went the entire way) and you have to mulligan much less if you don't have a creature in you starting hand, which is in my opinion one of the biggest problems the deck has. I tried the bounce too, but I was not very impressed. Every Problem solved by it, is often solved by Clique too (Like Moat or to many Ground Creatures, so that you can not attack for example) and stopping Spells like Ad Nauseam is a great plus...
Can anything be done to this deck beyond what has been done in the last 6 months or so? Every Thresh list seems the same: Geese, Goyf, Counter spells, Fire/Ice + Bolts, disruption package, cantrips and then either a couple bounce or the Cliques.
This deck hasn't seen bigger changes since it's development some years ago.
Only changes are "I-cut-the-bounce-for-2-creatures-uhhhh".
Guess why? Cuz the maindeck is optimal as is to date.
Also if you would change a majority of stuff it wouldn't be TempoThresh anymore.
@ ranc0r: Canadian does not play like Next Level Threshold. It's a completely different deck.
Team Legal Actions.
I already win a game with a Burn Plan : My opponent was playing Mono Black, he extirpated my Tropical then thanks to his Dark Confident and my Blasts, i managed to put 20 points.
I'm currently testing this list :
// Lands
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [M10] Ponder
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
Echoing Truth MD (and not Rushing River because I really love the Clique and the deck can't afford to play 4 3CCM) against Reanimator and because Bounces are always useful, a split 2 Snare/2 Pierce but I need more test to give an opinion.
About the Sideboard : Zoo becomes more and more played in my meta that's why I play 4 Submerge/2 Mind Harness, Pyroclasm because of Merfolks, Gob and Elves that are quite present in my meta, 3 REB-like and 3 Grave-Hate for Reanimator, Dredge.
What do you think about that ?
I went 4-1 and took 5th at a local 30 man tournament. I play the standard list with 2 Cliques in the bounce slots. I've been tinkering with the list and I decided to go
-1 Daze
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
+3 Spell Pierce
I played Reanimator (2-1), 43 Lands with Mindslaver (1-2), ANT (2-0), Dark Depths Rock (2-1), and ANT (2-0). Had a blast playing with the deck and Spell Pierce absolutely shined all day (except against lands). I did at least manage to squeak out a win against Lands but holy hell it was difficult. Playing against that deck is like pulling teeth.
Here's my sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Red blasts
2 Blue blasts
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
I'm thinking of losing the blue blasts for 2 Price of Progress since there's 3 or 4 Lands decks running around my meta. Any thoughts?
Gratz to the finish.
The md changes are definately interesting and I'm gonna test it as well.
Also the sideboard looks good and since you got some lands decks running around packing some pop's is reasonable too.
What I don't get are the krosan grips.
Sure they are awesome and all but don't you find it to be overkill to have 3sb grips when you already run spell pierces?
I would probably cut 2 grip and you would have the space for the pops without cutting blasts.
Also I would probably play just some red blasts since I don't really feel the need for blue ones.
1 K.Grip
3 Submerge
3 Red blasts
2 pyroclasm
1 EE
3 Crypt
2 Price of Progress
This is how I would probably run the sb in your meta.( reanimator, lands and ant)
Team Legal Actions.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
