I assume he has neither time nor energy.
So, is it just me or is UGb becoming superior to UGr, personally I love lightning bolt with all my heart and refuse to give it up without a fight... so what is giving black so much of an advantage? and how do we bring this to red?
edit: honestly did not know that was my first post =\ now i just feel like a big lurker.
Two things:
- Better removal
- Dark confidant
I don't think there's a way how to bring these qualities to the UGR version.
Edit:
What do you side out vs Goblins? I guess you want to bring in 6 cards (3 nought and 3 needles), so you need to take out 6. I guess the spell snares can go without much thinking, then the pierces should probably follow. Then? A FoW? A Daze?About Goblins and Merfolk:
Dark Confidant is your man, here. He'll win you the games, whatever sideboard you play.
I play Phyrexian Dreadnought (sideboard) to avoid the lategame. Especially Goblins becomes weird after turn 4/5 with little to no pressure.
I won several games and therefore several matches due to Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Team Stimato Ezio: You're off the team!
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
-Kierkegaard
For a long time, red was regarded as superior to black. Why the change now?
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
UGr has no way of producing CA while black does in the form of dark confidant. Also the removal in red doesn't kill every creature now while smother kills everything in the format pretty much and ghastly demise kills a lot of stuff too. Red can get there in the hands of a very skilled pilot though like Ben Wienburg.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
Originally Posted by Vacrix
The one thing I'm curious about is the Disfigure in the SB. How well has that worked out? Is it more removal to bring in against Zoo or like a Lord killer against Merfolk? I haven't tested it yet (I don't currently own any atm), but was interested to hear about its results from people who have.
Edit: Also, grats on your finish, Oddball.
Originally Posted by Jack Burton
I played Dark Thresh in our local tournament to a solid 4-1 performance yesterday. My list was deviated from BUG Threshold by David López, played at the Eternal Weekend Madrid 10/10/2010.
I changed some slots around and adjusted the sideboard and went with these 75:
Dark Thresh
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Rushing River
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Smother
1 Disfigure
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Spell Pierce
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Volcanic Island
Overview of my matches:
1) Ubw Merfolk (Perish + StP out of the board)
We trade massive resource denial for some rounds, but I am able to recover better thanks to my cantrips. Clique shows he has nothing left, Disfigure takes care of a Reejery and Clique + Goyf seal the deal. I manage to stick a Confidant in the second one and a threshed Mongoose gets there.
Boarding (if I remember right):
in: 2 REB, 2 Firespout, EE, Needle, Volcanic; out: 3 Daze, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Stifle, 1 Scalding Tarn
1-0 / 2:0 in games
2) Quinn
I loose the first one after he sticks both Humility and Moat, both of which he is able to cast after chanting me. Some turns later Sacred Mesa shows up and we go to the second game. The second one is narrow, but I manage to stick a Clique and ride her to victory. Additionally, I kept my Edicts for killing Eternal Dragons... but they kill Peacekeepers as well! The third one is decided by Confidant plus Clique (again) all the while countering important stuff or destroying the permanents of him I intentionally let through because of the removal I held. He was a bit mana-light in this one, so that even Wasteland mattered here (-> Scrying Sheets).
Boarding:
in: 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, EE, Needle, Extirpate; out: 2 Daze, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Stifle, 1 Smother, 1 Disfigure, 1 Demise
2-0 / 4:1
3) Bant CB/Top
It's against a friend of mine, and we helped each other tune our decks the evening before. CB/Top is a matchup I don't have good experience with back from the days when I played Can Thresh. I offer ID + price splits, but he declines it. According to the rule that one should loose when dismissing such an offer, I beat him in two quick ones.
Boarding:
in: 2 REB, 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, Needle, Volcanic; out: 3 Daze, 1 Snare, 1 Goyf, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder, 1 Scalding Tarn
3-0 / 6:1
4) URw Ascension combo (Ascencions, Bolts, Groove + P. Fire, FoW, Pierce, StP, Cantrips)
In the first game I manage to stick a quick Clique, but which is burned two turns later. I disrupt his mana a bit until he starts fetching for basics, counter an Ascension and ride Goyf to victory. I am holding additional creatures but don't want to show him too much of my deck... which pays out in the second one, as multiple threshed Mongeese kill him quickly. Jace can't bounce them and he left his EE in the board. Using my lone Grip on his Ascension also helps for sure.
Boarding:
in: 2 REB, 2 Pierce, Grip, Predator, EE, Volcanic; out: 1 Snare, 3 Daze, 1 Disfigure, 1 Smother, 1 Demise, 1 Scalding Tarn
4-0 / 8:1
5) GW SurVine
His decks shows why I consider it one of the best in he current metagame by now. He aplies early pressure with Pridemage and Goyf and seals the deal after I am unable to counter Survival. I punted a bit in this game because I tapped out for Clique in his end of draw instead of his endstep. I have to mulligan twice (mulligan #3 and #4 the whole day) in the second game, but am quickly into it thanks to cantrips, some removal and the general tempo plan. It wasn't enough in the end, though.
Boarding:
in: 2 Spout, Grip, Predator, Jailer, Extirpate, Crypt, Needle, Volcanic; out: 2 Daze, 1 Stifle, 1 Ponder, 1 Mongoose, 1 Scalding Tarn, 3 ?
4-1 / 8:3
Thoughts / comments
-> Contrary to a previous post I think that the Mongeese, while still very good, aren't an automatic 4-of anymore
-> Clique again was one of the best cards troughout the day. I definately want the second one in here. 14 creatures feels too many, though... so actually I might cut one of the Mongeese.
-> Rushing River was very good as well, providing an instant speed 'catch all' answer. I like it for it's relative speed (compared to EE or Maelstrom Pulse for example) as well as providing an out to problematic permanents even under moon effects (basic Island assumed).
-> The red cards in the board where nice to have, but not a necessity. In hindsight, other b/u/g cards might provide comparable effects. Additionally, I usually hate lands in my board (short of Islands in Vintage, but thats a different beast). Possible replacements are +1 Pierce, +1 Grip, +1 Extirpate (other gravehate?), +2 spot removal or sweepers.
Last edited by Blitzbold; 11-07-2010 at 08:08 AM.
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Ok guys, I got another primer.
We had our Dutch Legacy Championships (207 players) yesterday and another UGB TempoThreshold player (Dannis kampelmann) went top 8. He lost his Q-finals against 43-lands, which isn't a shame. I'm not sure if he's on Thesource, hopefully he is. If he isn't, it's still worth mentioning.
It was a pity that I couldn't go, I was ill...
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
Actually I'm Dennis, not Dannis!
I couldn't imagine to lose against that RG Valakut Deck but he has opened up G3 with T1 Foothills->Exploration, Foothills->Manabond, eot->Tabernacle, Maze, Wasteland and topdecked Loam in T2. Well and I wasn't able to get and Extirpate through my Confidant.....can happen.
I changed my Removal configuration from:
2 Smother
2 D. Edict
1 Demise
to
3 Demise
2 Edict
because I didn't knew what the Meta would look like, but I knew that you play 4 Demises and that you improved well with them in the Netherlands. I've tried to compensate their weakness against Knight of the Reliquary by adding Deathmark to the Sb. That was the right decision, even if cutting Smother was wrong at all.
In retrospective I should have played 2 Extirpate Maindeck in the Explosives/Spell Pierce Slot as I did in 2007 when Dredge was hyped as hell.
Last edited by Oddball; 11-15-2010 at 07:48 AM.
+++Team AYB (All your Base)+++
Now I even wish more that I could have gone. Anyway, congratz on yet another good finish. What were your matchups? Did you play your identical list? How did you sideboard? Do you want to write a report, maybe?
@ Practical Joke/Robbin
I was ill, I did not have an hangover. Hangovers are a piece of cake, although there were (apparently) queue's for the bathroom due to the attendance.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
There have been a couple people in my area to pick up Survival and I, too, changed some slots to include 2 MD Extirpates. They've been awesome in testing and games, dealing with Vengevines, removing Trops/critters against other Thresh decks or decks with low creature counts, etc. I've been running a removal package of 3 Demise and 2 Smothers and it has been working pretty well. I might switch to your config as someone mentioned they had a Loyal Retainer on the way.
As far as people still playing the red splash, I'm running the 9 creature set up with Clique and I've been trying out 2 Needle in the flex spots. Originally it was 1 Echoing Truth (to bounce Vengevines or troublesome perms) and 1 Needle, but then I decided to up it to 2 needle.
Congrats on the finish yet again. Seems Survival isn't stopping any Thresh players in Europe. Which is refreshing to see. Keep up the great work.
Originally Posted by Jack Burton
My current tournament score in rounds from september till today with this Deck is 6:1,6:1,5:1,6:2,6:1 :1.
That's a total of 29 : 6 : 1 and 4 of the 6 losses were against Survival
(as far as I remember I ve played a total of 8 rounds against UG Madness, GW Sur and Ooze Sur).
Most of the time I really had bad luck due to many many mulligans and that could have happend in any other matchup as well. Furthermore 8 rounds aren't very presentitive, so it's hard to get how important such a result really is.
Last edited by Oddball; 11-16-2010 at 01:23 AM.
+++Team AYB (All your Base)+++
Played at local Legacy event last Saturday with following decklist:
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
SB:
3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
My result was 31 and 3rd place
2:0 vs GBw Survival (winner of the tournament)
2:1 vs Aluren
1:2 vs Dark Horizons
1:1 vs WG aggro
2:1 vs Storm Combo
Good job Dennis. Could you please post the whole decklist? :)
I've been testing this deck for a while now, and have been toying around with maindeck spell pierces for the most part. Has anyone else found that they are amazing? Their hard to fit into the maindeck, but I think cutting a nimble mongoose and a spell snare might be acceptable. While mongoose is good I don't know if it's a definite 4-of. Furthermore, with the more reliable black removal, spell snare isn't needed as a 4-of given that they will hit goyfs and other problematic creatures, while spell pierce hits other important 2 drops (i.e. counterbalance) that aren't creatures as well as tops, vials and removal, amongst others. Here's my current list that I'm quite happy with (granted it's not really that different from others):
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
SB:
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Disfigure
3 Mind Harness
1 Polluted Delta
I'm running an additional maindeck removal spell as I'm expecting merfolk, zoo and goblins to be rampant, though the edict will probably become a 3rd ghastly demise, I haven't been too happy with it. 8 duals and 6 fetches can obviously be any combination depending on the meta.
I've picked up this deck for a tournament,
even though I went 3-2-1 with it, it definately should've been more, lovely deck to play with.
Round 1: Goblins
G1: He plays first, and I never get into the game offensively and I couldn't take down his endless rain of goblins
G2: dreadnought stifle
G3: dreadnought with a whole lot more stifles ftw
Round 2: The Rock
G1: mull to 5, I somehow manage to keep him to a 3 mana minimum with 2 unlucky basics, but he has a SDT. I have 2 nonbasics and my hand is empty. I draw into dark confidan, he tops and vindicates, I draw into goyf, he double waste my lands. I draw wasteland and destroy his one non-basic. The solitary goyf gets there since he draws into 3-mana stuff and discard.
G2: he wins on a kotr while I cóuldn't find an answer.
G3: I have realy tempo-hand, he opens double waste again, this time I couldn't care much. I beat him to death T4, and he never drew into a second color-land.
Round 3: ID against a friend and teammate playing canadian *****
Round 4: Ooze-combo
G1: I deny him his mana and his combo spells, and easily win after that
G2: extirpate wins the game with reanimate on the stack.
Round 5: Dredge
G1: I somehow managed to win this game by beating him with double goyf after taking out his bridges with a sacrificial mongoose.
G2: He plays a discard unit, discards a troll which I extirpate, he sadly has a second dredger and he kills me T3, risk taken
G3: I drop a confidant, which sticks for a few turns. I ned up with 5 creatures, 1 stifle and 8 lands. sad game
Round 6: Goblins
G1: I lose this one fairly easy, I drew a whole lot of blanks
G2: I win this easily with dreadnought stifle and some stifles
G3: I drew removal and land. That's not going to be enough by a long shot.
So I lost 2 games by drawing into an exceptionally huge ammount of land (last game I saw 11 lands, from a few fetched and it only lasted 6 turns)
The deck itself performs greatly, and I loved it :)
So I decided to play something completely different. I decided to play Canadian Threshold. [Whispering by a choir: Wow, what a difference]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique (Resolved once, disappointment (swap for Spell Pierce if I ever play red again))
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm (boarded in against TES)
4 Submerge (3 is clearly enough)
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt (never boarded in)
2 Spell Pierce (pretty good all day long)
I played the deck, because I didn't want to borrow a Phyrexian Dreadnought from someone I didn't know.
46 players, 6 rounds.
Round 1: WB Agro
G1: My opponent plays SFM and gets Sword of Fire/Ice. In his drawstep I clique the sword away (revealing two removal and 2 random cards), he then path's my clique. In my turn I play Tarmogoyf, in his turn he plays vindicate that I force. In my turn I draw Tarmogoyf and the game is over.
G2: My opponent starts with leyline, Badang! He never gets creatures on the table and my two Nimble Mongoose slowly kill my opponent.
1-0
Round 2: Burn
G1: First I want to tell you that I never went below 15 lifes (3 fetch, 1 volcanic fallout).My opponent has 4 mountains and a suspended Rift Bolt. I got a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. He targets the Tarmogoyf with Rift bolt, he then plays Flamebreak. I Force the Flamebreak. He then sacs 2 tapped mountains for a Fireblast on my Tarmogoyf. I respond with Brainstorm, knewing that this Tarmogoyf would win me the game or when it gets destroyed I would probably lose. So either the Brainstorm had to show creatures or counters. It did neither just the random Fire/ice, Stifle and land. I knew my opponent wasn't really experienced, so I had to try something. After the Brainstorm I Ice'd (Fire/Ice) his untapped mountain. He didn't tap for mana and I daze'd his Fireblast, winning the game.
G2: I end with 8 lifes and 1 Nimble Mongoose, 1 Tarmogoyf and 1 Vendilion Clique on the table that kill my opponent. He had 2 Relic activations, but no Volcanic Fallout. Lucky me. I picked up enough counters after the second Relic (ofcourse) for Flamebreak.
2-0
Round 3: Dark Tempo Threshold
We ID, see above. Scouting + Relaxing for 60 minutes + eating + not playing against a friend and teammate > random win by topdecks. We play out one game, I win ofcourse (topdecking Tarmogoyf, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose while we were both in topdeckmode).
2-0-1
Round 4: Zoo (Semi-finalist)
I heard he needed Sulfuric Vortex, but he didn't put them in his sideboard for this tournament. So naturally I put him on Burn, tends out to be Zoo.
Win the Dice-roll.
G1: He mulligans to 6. I play Fetch, he plays fetch (mesa). Tries to fetch, I stifle. I play Nimble Mongoose. Next turn I play Tarmogoyf. After a while he resolves a Sylvan Library (while he was way behind, had counters for it). I end up having 18 lifes, 1 fetch, 1 force.
G2: Extremely long game, it goes back and forth. I topdeck a Fire/ice for his 2 Grim Lavamancers, while I was in trouble. I submerge 2x a Qasali Pridemage with a fetch on the stack (not in the same turn). I stabilize on 3 lifes, starting to beat him from 18 to 5. He had three cards in his hand, I had a Force and Stifle. I colourscrewed him earlier in the game, leaving him with 0 Taiga. He gets the fetch and he tries to fetch. He was a pretty good player, so I somehow thought that he was slowrolling a Burn (he tells me he did). So I let the fetch resolve and he plays Nacatl (1 card on hand), which I hardcast Force of Will (there goes my reasoning). He doesn't burn me, I topdeck Fire/ice and attack (5 lifes). He topdecks/plays Tarmogoyf, that I ice (Fire/Ice). Drawing blank, and for my turn drawing a blank. Had 6 outs. I pretty much punted here by letting him fetch. I was pretty scared by the possibility of him having burn, I was a chicken-shit. It could have cost me the match.
G3: He mulligans to 5 with 10 minutes on the clock. I start playing faster and faster knowing that I'm the only one with a possibility of winning the match. I get a relatively fast Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, yet remain to keep pressure on my opponent. He tries to double bolt my Tarmogoyf, in response I submerge my Tarmogoyf. Draw the Tarmogoyf, attack with Nimble Mongoose. Two turns after that he tries to make a double burn attempt again, but I force his second bolt (or something). He then scoops at 11 life and a 2 turn clock. Still had Fire/Ice and Submerge on hand.
3-0-1
Round 5: The Rock
G1: I win due to Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. He never gets a grip on the fight. I had a turn 1 stifle with a Wooded Foothills on the play.
G2: He starts with Mox diamond, swamp, Top. I force of will the top. I draw, play volcanic and go. He goes draw, go (sick!). He clearly needs three mana, which is fine by me. He tries to fetch about 3 turns later, which I stifle (ofcourse). After a while he topdecks Bayou, playing Vampire Nighthawk. I submerge the Vampire nighthawk and waste his bayou. Meanwhile I keep pressure on him with 1 Nimble and 2 Tarmogoyf (2 plows). At the end I had some pretty good topdecks. Though, he never really gets into the game due to that Force'd Sensei's Divining Top.
4-0-1
Round 6: Id in top 8
4-0-2
Top 8
I end up being 4th after the switch, my teammate and friend ends on 5th place. So we get paired to eachother, which is a bummer. Especially when the prices are top heavy (top 8 only receives a beer and 5 boosters).
He plays TES, which frankly was one of the best matchups I could have in the top 8 (Goblins; Zoo, UGR Tempo Threshold (me); Tes and Ichorid; Tempo Threshold, Eva Green; Countertop).
G1: I keep a relative good hand and after 2 duress/thoughtseize effects I'm still with 2 Stifle and 2 Daze. In my turn I topdeck brainstorm, brainstorm into crap. Fetch. Play ponder (1 mana left), see Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Land. Pick up the Spell Snare. Then my opponent tries to go off with Infernal Tutor, I Spell Snare and win.
G2: I keep an amazing hand: 1 Fetch, 1 Nimble mongoose, 3 Force of will, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Daze. He starts, plays land and says go. I play Nimble and go. Then the game starts to punt. My opponent gets to play 7 lands with no business and an hand full of Rituals. After a few turns of beating, I get my second and third land and a Tarmogoyf. My opponents scoops.
5-0-2
The quarter finals between Zoo and Goblins went in Sudden Death. Zoo wins by topdecking plateau --> Chain lightning. Zoo mulliganned to 4, Goblins to 2 or 3 (he played bolt).
Top 4
I have to play against the Zoo player, but I don't want to play anymore (was 7 p.m. after a pretty long day).
So we split the 500 Euro's, gaining 125 euro's each. We each got a beer, which was nice.
[5-0-3 Result]
The end.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
Hi!
Do you still play Extirpate now? Though Survivalīs gone i think itīs still better than other graveyard hate like Tormodīs Crypt.
And what about Submerge vs. Perish vs. Mind Harness? What do you guys prefer?
Depending entirely on the metagame I would still advise some sort of Graveyard hate. Dredge isn't a fairly good matchup, 43Lands and Loam decks (in general) have great targets for Extirpate.
My sideboard looks like this (currently):
2 Mind Harness
1 Submerge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Extirpate
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Disfigure
About Submerge vs. Perish vs. Mind Harness:
I would never ever play Perish.
Furthermore, I don't like the potential lifeloss of Submerge. 5 lifes is a chunk. Revealing Force of Will and Submerge in the following turn is half of your life total. In addition, Submerge is pretty much a Tempo card (ideal for Canadian Threshold since they run burn and therefore have a faster clock). The black splash already runs 'real' removal for Tarmogoyf, therefore Submerge isn't really needed. I'm playing one copy for Counterbalance.
Mind Harness is ok to godly. It has it's limitations (Counterbalance), but it can win games on it's own (while Submerge can't). I had several testgames against Zoo where I gained control over an 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary, which got double bolted and blocked by a Qasali Pridemage, because he was at 7. This means that I just 4 for 1'd the guy.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
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