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Thread: [Archetype] CounterTop

  1. #21
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Waya, only 2 Counterbalance? Really? Also...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waya View Post
    When Magic: 2010 comes out, I will be running silence, probably in place of the ponders.
    Why not run Orim's Chants instead?
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  2. #22
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
    see Waya your list would just go Ugw countertop aggro/control or bant control.

    and Enigma would go to Ugr countertop aggro/control

    They both look like viable lists. And both use different cards.
    I absolutely agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by "kicks_442
    Waya, only 2 Counterbalance? Really? Also...
    Because I said it ran the line between tempo and CBT. I like to think the deck can win on tempo (which usually happens), and CBT is just there as a sweetener or backup. I should really put another CB in the 'board, though.

    Why not run Orim's Chants instead?
    Because I just started playing again after a long hiatus and totally forgot about 'chant.
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  3. #23
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I came in third yesterday in a 40 man tournament in the Netherlands. My decklist was:

    TSL Gro

    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Lorescale Coatl
    2 Sower of Temptation

    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will
    4 Spell Snare
    3 Daze

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    3 Fire/Ice

    4 Sensei’s Divining Top
    3 Engineered Explosives

    4 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Island
    2 Forest

    Sideboard:
    1 Volcanic Island
    4 Krosan Grip
    3 Submerge
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Pyroclasm
    1 Sower of Temptation
    Other than the sideboard, which I'm going to change, the deck did really, really well. EE, CB, Goyf and Top were sweet for me through the entire day, with the basics really doing their thing. I'm never going to play less than 4 of CB and Top ever (unless they get banned).
    At first I added red simply for EE@3, but I decided that F/I was worth running and I added a second Volcanic in the maindeck. I made it a third one in the SB because I feared the ever present Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland decks that run rampant here.

    My Matchups were:
    R1: Domain Zoo: Win 2-0 (This guy went on to win the tournament too)
    R2: My teammate with Aggro Loam: Win 2-1
    R3: Suicide Black: Lost 0-2
    R4: Canadian Tempo Thresh: Won 2-1
    R5: Domain Zoo: Won 2-0
    R6: BGW Rock/Eva goodies: Lost 2-1 (I got a gameloss at 1-1 when I was going to swing for the win but forgot the trigger of the Dark Confidant I Sowered), So basically, this was 2-1 for me :P
    Top8
    1/4F: UW Control: Won 2-0
    1/2F: Domain Zoo (same guy as R1): Lost 2-0. The deck gave up on me :P

    I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)

    EDIT: I am however, going to playtest Vendilion Clique
    Last edited by Mayk0l; 05-19-2009 at 06:49 AM.
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  4. #24
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayk0l View Post
    I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)
    Do you mind giving more specifics around Lorescale Coatl and how it performed in your matches?
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  5. #25
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayk0l View Post
    I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)
    How good is Sower as opposed to Shackles or something like Control Magic? Do you find it hard to protect?

  6. #26
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I wrote a full report but it's in Dutch. If anyone has any specific questions, I'm willing to answer them :)
    How was Fire//Ice? Did fire ever net you card advantage? How relevant was Ice to winning damage races?
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I think counterbalance decks is pretty vague. I'm currently playing a "threshold" deck that almost walks the line between CBT and Tempo.
    The thing is though that as time goes on, chances are optimal builds will begin to flesh themselves out and polarize between specific approaches and the decks will have their own threads, but right now as it stands, there seems to be a lot of cross-pollination between decks that go for the CB+SDT cantrips and goyf route. That's what I think anyway. I think the idea has been touched upon in this thread a bit already, so if I am beating a dead horse, I won't be butthurt if this reply gets the axe.
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  8. #28
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by kabal View Post
    Do you mind giving more specifics around Lorescale Coatl and how it performed in your matches?
    Coatl, naturally, plays differently than the Mongoose it replaces. Whilst Goose was often a turn 1 drop after which you knew it was relatively safe and you just waited until it became a 3/3, Coatl comes down later. I found that this meant that my deck played like a Control deck in the first couple of turns (having mana open for Spell Snare simply rocks) and I dropped Coatl more than once to seal the game. Given, it is no Tarmogoyf, in my opinion it is more threatening than Goose. I found that people were desperate to get rid of Coatl as soon as it came down, and I did not lose a single game wherein I had a Coatl that lived beyond the first turn. Growing it is absolutely no problem whatsoever, and I don't feel like it really needs a deck built around or that it needs Sylvan Library. I found that even spending my Brainstorms and Ponders when I needed them in the first turns didn't matter, I always found a way to grow Coatl. Although I have to admit, I did change my list to make it more effective; I didn't play F/I before.
    It often grew beyond anything I'd ever imagined it would, it was larger than the Countryside Crushers and Terravores it faced, and in more than one game it made Goyf look like a whimp; what good is their 7/8 Goyf when I have a 10/10 and 8/8 Coatl? I thought so.
    I love how you can drop Coatl and Ponder into Brainstorm, that won me one game right there.

    I love Coatl and will definitely keep playing it in this deck as a four-off


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaynel View Post
    How good is Sower as opposed to Shackles or something like Control Magic? Do you find it hard to protect?
    I don't play Control Magic or Threads or Shackles because it suffers from the same hate people will side in against Counterbalance; Grip. I do realise that giving them more targets means they'll have to spent their Grips wisely, and a Grip on Control Magic might mean my Counterbalance lives; but the thing they want gone the most will be gone. That's a bad thing. Other than that I don't play Shackles because I run only 18 lands, 2 of them being basic forests. I think Shackles belongs in a dedicated control deck. I used to run them in the past though, but never really liked not being able to Shackle a 6/7 Goyf. In the whole tournament, I've had numerous 6/7 Goyfs (or bigger) sitting across the table from me, but there was only one game wherein I had 6 Islands. With that in mind, I think I made the right choice.

    That said, Sower was damned hard to protect, yes. Zoo players didn't mind wasting three burns on it. I've yet to give Sower a fair chance though, as I usually only saw it in the games I was losing anyway, as a topdeck with an empty hand. I desperately searched for it a couple of times against a Tombstalker, and found it through cantrips, but couldn't protect it because I was losing and my hand was empty. However, Shackles and Counter Magic would have died to the Vindicate as well :)

    Also, as a small sidenote, Goyf often stares down another Goyf, Coatl needs at least a little time to grow. Sower means you have a threat with Evasion; Sowering something gives you an additional threat. I like the idea of having an extra flyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda View Post
    How was Fire//Ice? Did fire ever net you card advantage? How relevant was Ice to winning damage races?
    F/I dit net me cardadvantage on a rare occasion; usually it was a Confidant and another card that got burned (Lavamancer). I have to say, I really like it. I was having doubts about including it but I'm glad I did, it's really a good feeling knowing you have a backup-out against Confidant other than EE. Confidant is a card I despise with all my heart when it's staring at me from across the table, because I always lose when I can't get rid of it. I even Submerged a Confidant or two just to deny them the cardadvantage for at least a turn (and won games because of it). Another time when Fire was really useful for me was when the UW control player played a Jace, took a counter from it to draw a card, and I burnt the rest of the counters off; pretty expensive cantrip that made it :)
    The Ice part of F/I didn't really have a chance to shine. It did however, fulfill one role to the fullest; stalling Tombstalker. I topdecked three F/I's in a row, this gave me time to find a Sower to Sower the Tombstalker; however, it got Vindicated >_<

    I like F/I and I'm definitely leaving it in for the time being. Even if just to battle Confidant, I'm happy to have it.
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  9. #29
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I must say I like Fire//Ice very much.
    It can kill Magus of the Moon even after turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Magus.
    It can deal the last 1 damage to their Goyf/Stalker. Or just Ice and race (hey, +1/+1 on snake).
    It can give time against Dreadnought (very good option if you resolved Coatl - 'nought forced to chumpblock is priceless).
    It kills Confidant/Birds/Decree-Elspeth tokens/Lackey(if you on play)/....
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  10. #30

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Considering Countertop incorporates such a massive portion of the metagame and has so many different variations, wouldn't it make sense to have dedicated threads to UGw Countertop, Dark Countertop (any countertop variant splashing black), UGr Countertop etc.

    For example, I honestly think we need to have more of a discussion on Noble Hierarch. Many of the players who run the card like it a lot. But such a discussion would get muddle in such a generic thread as Countertop. It's categorized strictly as a mana slot in UGW Countertop lists that serves useful utilty functions on the side, but primarily, it serves the role of mana, and mana counts after including it should never ever ever exceed 21 slots. But once again, this discussion gets muddled with all the UGr and UGb lists that also go in this same spot.

  11. #31

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    lets discuss noble hierarch.
    i will preface the discussion w/ the fact that i've not run him in any of my thresh lists.

    cons:
    1) weak to downright bad mid-late game topdeck because if you don't have a threat out he is just a 0/1 and 1/2 beater. if you have a threat out then you're probably doing good already w/o him.
    2) he is green so is not pitchable to fow
    3) on his own he has no evasion, shroud, etc. neither does bob or pridemage though.
    4) can't compete for qasali pridemage/trygon/bob spot in the deck as a utility creature imho. even though his purpose is different, the EV is much higher out of the aforementioned.
    5) potentially makes you keep worse hands as he represents UGW mana, but if sworded can set you back a bunch if you have no top/ponder to search/shuffle for mana and only had an underground sea (for example) in the opening hand...

    pros:
    1) keeps you in it even after a resolved bloodmoon/wasteland lock/armageddon/magus/choke/etc.
    2) make an existing threat larger than opponents threat, if both people have a goyf and you have the hierarch, then it helps break the stalemate.
    3) helps be daze proof turn 2 if cast on turn 1, thus enabling a safer cb drop on t2. i think this is the biggest pro for him in my mind.
    4) can be used for natural order (meh)

    its hard to decide which list can fit this guy, i would imagine ones that choose to run RWM (color intensive).
    potentially in a metagame full of wasteland/stifle/dragon stompy, he is a good addition though he is a target for fire/ice.

  12. #32

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I'm not saying Hierarch makes sense in every UGw build. Hierarch only makes sense in builds that play a high 3cc spell/threat count. The accleration and additional mana they provide is invaluable in such lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by sauce View Post
    lets discuss noble hierarch.
    i will preface the discussion w/ the fact that i've not run him in any of my thresh lists.

    cons:
    1) weak to downright bad mid-late game topdeck because if you don't have a threat out he is just a 0/1 and 1/2 beater. if you have a threat out then you're probably doing good already w/o him.
    2) he is green so is not pitchable to fow
    3) on his own he has no evasion, shroud, etc. neither does bob or pridemage though.
    4) can't compete for qasali pridemage/trygon/bob spot in the deck as a utility creature imho. even though his purpose is different, the EV is much higher out of the aforementioned.
    All those weakness apply to the lands that you should be playing (assuming that you're playing lots of 3cc spells which is the main reason to consider hierarch) in his place as well. Lands can't be pitched to FoW either and lands suck as mid-late game topdecks once you have enough mana out. Lands are shuffled away in the midgame same as Hierarch's are. Atleast Hierarch's exalted and 1cc for counterbalance comes in handy many times.

    With the higher number of 3cc spells most decks now play, it seems like many players are heavily skimping on land slots. Oddly enough, those same players when they "try" Hierarch out go in the complete other direction by not cutting any lands for it and then wonder why they're getting mana flooded.

    There's still way too many builds out there playing 3cc spells with only 17 lands and 0 Hierarchs. And there's still too many builds out there playing 18 lands and 4 hierarchs. I have tried both configurations and am convinced that both configurations are absolutely mistakes. The former is way too mana light and the latter is way too mana heavy.

    If you're not playing Hierarch, I'm adamant that playing 17 lands alongside multiple 3cc spells (Lorescale, RMW, O. Ring, EE etc) is a mistake. I would play 19 lands in decks heavy in 3cc cards.

    I'm also convinced that playing 18 lands along side Noble Hierarch is a mistake. 17 is the absolute maximum. I actually only play 16 lands and am fine with that number though I can understand wanting to play 17 lands.

    8-9 fetches, 3-4 trop, 2 tundra, 1 forest, 1 island, 4 hierarch in a build with lorescale works perfectly for me. In such a build, green becomes a critically important color, almost as neccesary as blue, and having acess to a white producing land is no longer as important. It works precisely because Noble Hierarch makes the deck far less dependent on basic lands and lands in general. With 4 Hierarch, you are far more likely to get access to all your needed colors more easily.

    And seeing as how I had to go up to 19 lands prior to playing hierarch because of all the 3cc cards I was playing (lorescale, RWM etc), Noble Hierarch indeed is taking up 3 land slots for me, and only one business spell slot. And the accleration, utility and resiliency it's giving me is well worth that small sacrifice.

  13. #33

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I'm playing Countertop UGW with goyf, Coatl, Sower, Daze + Snare and Bant Charm*, I and I don't think the Hierarch fitS in this deck: We need a good late-game rather than acceleration.

    It seems to be an awful topdeck, and I don't need to play my threats earlier to reach the late game, where the deck is usually More powerful.


    * I'm surprised to see anyone suggest the charm. Any way I have to suggest you to test it. It's like a creature removal that avoids recursion (my meta is full of Rock decks), instant, cc3 for the balance, blue for Fow. . . It has just replaced the Pridemage in my list, I have lost the enchantment removal (uSeful against Pernicious and sometimes balance), the exalted ability and a decent creature abut I really love to play with 7/8 creature removal. Have anyone tested it?

  14. #34

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikurei,TheGodsSlayer View Post
    I'm playing Countertop UGW with goyf, Coatl, Sower, Daze + Snare and Bant Charm*, I and I don't think the Hierarch fitS in this deck: We need a good late-game rather than acceleration. It seems to be an awful topdeck, and I don't need to play my threats earlier to reach the late game, where the deck is usually More powerful.
    Did you read my post. My point was that Hierarch is taking up the slots that otherwise would/should go to lands. Adding Hierarch allowed me to go from 19 lands to 16, and function more consistently if anything.

    How is land any better a topdeck lategame than Hierarch? It's not. If you can, you would shuffle away land just the same as you would shuffle away Hierarch. Atleast the Exalted that Hierarch offers is useful.

    And like you sai,d the deck is usually more powerful in the lategame. That's precisely why accleration helps, because it brings you over to the lategame earlier. This deck isn't a monster early game. Honestly, against decks like Zoo, Eva Green and Team America, it has a lot of trouble in early game because it jsut can't keep up. Hierarch helps here, esp given that this deck doens't have any great turn one plays anyways. Just as you lose tempo when your land gets Sinkholed or Wasted, you gain tempo when you cast Hierarch. It generates on average 10-12 extra mana most games over the course of a game, and it does it all while pumping your threats. How is that a bad thing?

    I can see where you're coming from with Bant Charm. I hate hate hate hate hate that your opponent can simply blow up Oblvion Ring to get back their card.

    For that same reason, I was a huge fan of the Bant Charm back when it was first printed, and ran it over Oblivion Ring. Bant Charm made sense back then because Dreadnought was the hot new thing at that time. But then, countertop took off and this past year, it's showing up everywhere. Bant Charm does nothing against countertop. It can't blow up CB and they can just return Top to the top of their library if you try to blow it up. Thats assuming it even resolves once they get countertop online.

    Now, I see no benefit in playing Bant Charm over Pridemage. If you really need extra creature removal, I'm curious if you guys think Path of Exile in the sideboard has any potential at all.

  15. #35
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayk0l View Post
    Coatl, naturally, plays differently than the Mongoose it replaces. Whilst Goose was often a turn 1 drop after which you knew it was relatively safe and you just waited until it became a 3/3, Coatl comes down later. I found that this meant that my deck played like a Control deck in the first couple of turns (having mana open for Spell Snare simply rocks) and I dropped Coatl more than once to seal the game. Given, it is no Tarmogoyf, in my opinion it is more threatening than Goose. I found that people were desperate to get rid of Coatl as soon as it came down, and I did not lose a single game wherein I had a Coatl that lived beyond the first turn. Growing it is absolutely no problem whatsoever, and I don't feel like it really needs a deck built around or that it needs Sylvan Library. I found that even spending my Brainstorms and Ponders when I needed them in the first turns didn't matter, I always found a way to grow Coatl. Although I have to admit, I did change my list to make it more effective; I didn't play F/I before.
    It often grew beyond anything I'd ever imagined it would, it was larger than the Countryside Crushers and Terravores it faced, and in more than one game it made Goyf look like a whimp; what good is their 7/8 Goyf when I have a 10/10 and 8/8 Coatl? I thought so.
    I love how you can drop Coatl and Ponder into Brainstorm, that won me one game right there.

    I love Coatl and will definitely keep playing it in this deck as a four-off
    .
    I really like your articulation. I agree completely on this. playing with 3CC creatures is not a bad thing. It gives me time to set up countertop and daze fow etc. without fear. Its a more controlling deck at first, which I like. You can really focus now on controlling the early game. Now with the 1cc slot movement I wonder if stifle/spell snare can fill a role here now that it IS shifting to more control early game.

    edit - this new format is strange I have less reference to specific deck types in this thread. Can we please split it before it just gets insane.

  16. #36

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Did you read my post. My point was that Hierarch is taking up the slots that otherwise would/should go to lands. Adding Hierarch allowed me to go from 19 lands to 16, and function more consistently if anything.

    How is land any better a topdeck lategame than Hierarch? It's not. If you can, you would shuffle away land just the same as you would shuffle away Hierarch. Atleast the Exalted that Hierarch offers is useful.

    And like you sai,d the deck is usually more powerful in the lategame. That's precisely why accleration helps, because it brings you over to the lategame earlier. This deck isn't a monster early game. Honestly, against decks like Zoo, Eva Green and Team America, it has a lot of trouble in early game because it jsut can't keep up. Hierarch helps here, esp given that this deck doens't have any great turn one plays anyways. Just as you lose tempo when your land gets Sinkholed or Wasted, you gain tempo when you cast Hierarch. It generates on average 10-12 extra mana most games over the course of a game, and it does it all while pumping your threats. How is that a bad thing?

    I can see where you're coming from with Bant Charm. I hate hate hate hate hate that your opponent can simply blow up Oblvion Ring to get back their card.

    For that same reason, I was a huge fan of the Bant Charm back when it was first printed, and ran it over Oblivion Ring. Bant Charm made sense back then because Dreadnought was the hot new thing at that time. But then, countertop took off and this past year, it's showing up everywhere. Bant Charm does nothing against countertop. It can't blow up CB and they can just return Top to the top of their library if you try to blow it up. Thats assuming it even resolves once they get countertop online.

    Now, I see no benefit in playing Bant Charm over Pridemage. If you really need extra creature removal, I'm curious if you guys think Path of Exile in the sideboard has any potential at all.


    I totally disagree you can run 16 lands and 4 noble hierarch instead of running 19 lands. That is totally false. Maybe during your tests you thought that configuration was ok, but i can affirm that's not true. To play Hierarch you need lands, with 16 lands the probability you have to draw a single land is too low compared against the 19 land deck. If you don't have hierarch in hand a wasteland totally crushes you. That's my thought

  17. #37
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Hey, guys, why 4 Hierarch?? Is it the magical number or I miss something?
    17 lands + 3 Hierarch feels very good for me right now.
    Basically I count Hierarch as 1/2 of a land, so my list runs 18.5 "lands".
    Inclusion of Hierarch has 2 reasons: she helps goyfstalls and she helps fight Moon (outside Dragon Stompy, a lot of Sligh/Zoo and Loam players run Magus in SB in my metagame).
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  18. #38
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    I don't want to derail the discussion, but I'd like to know your thoughts on improving the Merflolk (or fast aggro) match-up for NLU-Probasco.

    My proposed approach was to include spot removal. After playing with Enigma's suggested list, I'd say Fire-Ice is a good contender for those slots.

    Is Trinket really needed these days (as opposed to during the GP: Chicago) ?

    Are 2 x Krosan Grip necessary in the maindeck these days ?

    Aside

    I think lumping all decks in this thread is a good idea in principle, but will turn things into a mess with a ton of parallel discussions going on (i.e. people following only one discussion will need to scroll and weed out a lot).

  19. #39

    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by johanessen View Post
    To play Hierarch you need lands, with 16 lands the probability you have to draw a single land is too low compared against the 19 land deck.
    That's not true though.16 lands is more than enough to ensure that you get a land in your opening hand to cast the hierarch.

    You only need one land to cast the hierarch. Once you have a land, hierarch counts as a second land, not half a land, a full land, it doesn't generate half a mana afterall, it generates a full mana.

    If you don't believe my experience, consider this... Merfolk, F. Stompy, 9 land stompy, tons of decks play only 13 colored lands even though they absolutley need to have one of those 13 colored lands first to be able to keep.

    So basically, you're playing 20 lands, which combined with you cantrips ensures that you always have sufficent mana.

  20. #40
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    Re: [DTB] CounterTop

    Quote Originally Posted by aTn View Post
    I don't want to derail the discussion, but I'd like to know your thoughts on improving the Merflolk (or fast aggro) match-up for NLU-Probasco.

    My proposed approach was to include spot removal. After playing with Enigma's suggested list, I'd say Fire-Ice is a good contender for those slots.

    Is Trinket really needed these days (as opposed to during the GP: Chicago) ?

    Are 2 x Krosan Grip necessary in the maindeck these days ?

    Aside

    I think lumping all decks in this thread is a good idea in principle, but will turn things into a mess with a ton of parallel discussions going on (i.e. people following only one discussion will need to scroll and weed out a lot).
    I was wondering the same. I played a small local tourney last weekend. As an experiment thought i'd jankyfy the deck with Vendilion Clique + Umezawa's Jitte instead of Trinket Mage + 1/0 CC artifacts, which worked well in an aggro meta. While i never actually missed Trinket Mage (or, for that matter, wished that the Clique/Jittes were something else) i do realise that just one local tourney worth of testing is not good enough to validate anything... Which takes me to the following point: so why the hell am i suggesting questionable card choices? Food for thought perhaps.

    I'll carry on then... I also ran 1 Firespout + 1 Krosan Grip rather than 2 Grips main and just hope to draw the one i wanted when i needed it (and keeping two of each in the sideboard). Although the 1/1 Firespout/Grip did actually work, there was clearly some good luck involved.

    Fire/Ice does look good and it is in my deck now after having seen Enigma's list but i haven't had the chance to test yet. I got demolished by Counterslivers last weekend and i did wish i had some spot removal in the deck.

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