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Thread: [Deck] Dredge

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    [Deck] Dredge

    Ichorid is a Legacy deck based off the same card from Torment, and the Ravnica Block Dredge mechanic. It is distinguished from it's Vintage counterpart of the same name due to Legacy's lack of the powerhouse card Bazaar of Baghdad. Legacy Ichorid is also slightly different from the Extended Dredge decks due to both the availability of Lion's Eye Diamond, and it's dependence on the deck's namesake card. A lack of early disruption in Extended makes the combo more viable.

    For those unfamiliar, the strategy of the deck to to quickly overwhelm the enemy with targeted discard combined a rush of Hasted 3/1 and 2/2 creatures. Where the strategic superiority of this plan lies, is not only in it's speed, but in the Ichorid's abuse of a resource that the majority of Legacy's decks have no way to disrupt; the graveyard.

    The basic plan is to get a card with Dredge(from now on known as a 'Dredger') into the graveyard,, and to then use this facilitator to get the rest of your deck to follow as rapidly as possible. This allows the recursion of Ichorids, and the resultant Zombie tokens for beaters. Dread Return is a secondary plan of attack, used to Haste your attackers with Flame-Kin Zealot, continue Dredging with Cephalid Sage, or re-animate some hugely expensive monster. I'll get into more detail later.

    The purpose of this article is to give lists myself and others have had success with, explanation of their card choices and omissions, a guide to sideboard options, and match-up analysis with typical side boarding to accompany.

    To begin, I'd like to list a short history of the deck's progression. For those uninterested, and to save space, I'll post links instead of the actual lists.

    Ichorid had it's first public success in it's current incarnation with Ernest Tuck's version from 2007 Legacy Champs at Gen Con:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10336

    The next change was toward shoring up the manabase, losing Leyline of the Void, and adding creature removal: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13448

    Then came the adoption of Unmask as additional free disruption: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17796

    And finally, the addition of Firestorm and Eternal Witness: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19430 ;which has become the standard base for most winning lists at recent recorded major tournaments.

    For a reference point, here is my most current list:

    Creatures (25)

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Eternal Witness

    Sorcery (15)

    4 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Unmask
    2 Dread Return
    2 Deep Analysis

    Enchantments (4)

    4 Bridge from Below

    Instant (1)

    1 Firestorm

    Artifacts (4)

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    Land (11)

    4 Gemstone Minne
    3 City of Brass
    3 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    Sideboard (15)

    4 Greater Gargadon
    4 Chain of Vapor
    3 Firestorm
    2 Wispmare
    1 Unmask
    1 Ancestor's Chosen

    Ichorid is as much a Combo deck as anything, so every single card choice should be scrutinized. Keep in mind that switching one card can mess up the entire workings of some versions. I will try to explain reasoning for each as best I can below.

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll/4 Stinkweed Imp/3 Golgari Thug
    : Some time ago, people much better at math than myself calculated that in a 60-card deck, the line for having the best chance of having a card in your opening seven without redundancy was at the number eleven. This is considered the minimum number of Dredgers that should be included, and any free space in your deck should seriously be thought toward more. I would estimate that 75% of opening hands not including a Dredger should be mulliganed. The Dredgers chosen are simply because they mill the highest number of cards, but please do not ignore their secondary applications. Grave-Troll can be re-animated to have a huge regenerating beat-stick. Thug can be an easily cast blocker who can either put a free Narcomoeba, or a needed Putrid Imp back on top of your deck. And Stinky can either fly in for extra damage, or block-and-kill almost any threat. The latter two also serve as Unmask and Ichorid fodder.

    4 Putrid Imp: PImp, as the card is affectionally called, is the best discard engine available in this slot. It costs one, can discard an unlimited amount at instant speed, flys in for two damage a turn, and feeds Ichorid. The closest competitor for this slot, Tireless Tribe, is a better blocker, but this deck is all about offense. Tribe is also in a less compatible color for both Unmask and Ichorid. However, Tribe is an excellent addition if you feel you need more than four permanent creature discard outlets.

    4 Narcomoeba: One of the cards that raised this deck from a simple Aggro deck that used the graveyard, to a true Combo threat. It's ability can be abused with Golgari Thug, as previously mentioned, and allows the use of a very early Dread Return with either a large or fortunate Dredge. Often can also be hard-cast, and fly in for damage. You always want four to maximize your chance of the early combo.

    4 Ichorid: Last things first; always run four. Unlike other formats, not only is Legacy full of creature removal, it is plagued by Swords to Plowshares which is more far more relevant. Legacy is also a format of creature-based damage, so the higher number you have to attack with, the more often your attack will be lethal. Also, the greater number of Bridge tokens you will get, and the greater chance you will be able to continue a threat if your Dredge engine is disrupted. Also may be needed to feed themselves, or pitch to an Unmask. That said, they're still the keystone, and the best card in the deck.

    1 Flame-Kin Zealot: Proof that it is always better to win now than later. While a never-ending stream of replacements have been suggested for FKZ, none match his elegance. He very simply is a full Time Walk in almost any situation where you can re-animate him. While other creatures may be better attackers, defenders, or cause heaps more disruption, it is indisputable that in most any situation in Game One when you can effectively Dread Return a creature, he will cause the most wins.

    1 Eternal Witness: One of the more controversial choices. For the longest time, Cephalid Sage was the choice for this slot. The object being to Dredge any remaining library you have in order to complete the combo immediately. While perfect for that use, I feel for a singleton slot, that Sage lacks versatility. Here is a short list of actual in-tournament actions I've performed with Witness:

    Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
    Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
    Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
    Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
    Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
    Retrieve LED when I had all visible Dredgers in hand, and a Sage could have done nothing.
    Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
    Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
    Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
    Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
    Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
    Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
    And of course, swung for the win.

    4 Breakthrough: The single most powerful card in the deck; providing not only an incomparable amount of draw power for it's cost, but also a complete discard outlet. If successfully cast with a Dredger in the graveyard, a win is almost guaranteed. Running less that four in any case is insanity.

    4 Cabal Therapy: I honestly don't think a better disruption spell could be made for this deck. Costs one? Check. Gets you extra creatures if you cast it again? Check. Black? Check. In conjunction with Unmask, can create openings that no deck in the format can recover from. Again, run four always.

    3 Unmask: Now we get to more controversial selections. Most feel that Unmask is a sideboard card at best. I think the total opposite. Unmask is best on the play in Game Three, is often useless in Game Two, and can not only give invaluable information in Game One, but can combine with Cabal Therapy to strip your opponent's hand on the first turn. This is especially important post-board, when quick, targeted discard is needed against the Hate brought in. In a pinch, it can also serve as a discard outlet for yourself. This can be evil when combined with a first-turn Breakthrough. I think Geoff Smelski described the card best when he first saw it in Ichorid; "What the f**k?! It's a free Thoughtseize without life loss for these guys!". Though I like four in the main for maximum chance in my opening seven, I'm trying three now for access to a main deck Firestorm.

    2 Dread Return: The minimum number, and three is probably optimal. I can't find room in this configuration at the moment though. In some cases, this becomes the most important card in the deck. Not only does it allow the early turn wins by bringing a Flame-Kin back to Haste your Zombie tokens for a lethal attack, it will allow a 19/19 Grave-Troll to swing in against decks with sweepers or swarm defense. Combined with Eternal Witness allows access to any card in the deck.

    2 Deep Analysis
    : One of the weaker cards in this version, but it is needed to maintain a minimum number of draw spells. DA's strength in conjunction with LED should be obvious, but it isn't that hard to get two lands to pay the Flashback cost either. I only run two since with neither of the mentioned mana sources available, it's a dead card. Eternal Witness makes it far stronger since you can always return a land or LED to activate.

    4 Bridge from Below: This is the card that put this deck over the top. I can't really say anything about it that anyone reading this shouldn't already know.

    1 Firestorm: An experiment out of the sideboard. While the chances of drawing a singleton are infintessimal after the opening hands with Ichorid, Witness makes it quite accessable. I'll get more into uses in the SB description, but I want one main deck as answer to the Tribal decks that are gaining popularity.

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond: The terminator line between current Legacy Ichorid decks. Some feel that in a format with decks running Relic of Progenitus main that discarding your entire hand is too risky. They may be correct. But there is no single card that as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently facilitates the entire goal of the Ichorid deck as this one. Basically, it speeds the decks up from a half to a full turn if dropped early. It serves as both free discard, and free mana; making relatively slow cards like Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis active on Turn One. It can be used to pay for additional costs such as Daze, and to pay through inhibitors like Trinisphere, or Ghostly Prison. LED is also excellent counter-magic bait, and in conjunction with an opening Gemstone Mine, can cause a read like a Storm Combo deck. It's uses with Witness are detailed earlier, and cannot be discounted. While some may argue that the risks outweigh the gains with LED, no version without ir has put up one-twentieth the results that the versions running four have.

    4 Gemstone/3 City/3 Coliseum/1 Undiscovered
    : Again, I run eleven lands for the optimal chance of having exactly one in my opener. Gemstone is the generically best 5-color land. The life loss from City of Brass is worth avoiding with one Undiscovered Paradise, but not enough of a danger to risk a second. Undiscovered's returning to hand can also help to force discard in a pinch. Unlike some, I only run three Coliseums. I have tried time and time again to run a fourth, and have never liked it. The broken options it gives along with a first turn 5C land+discard, or god help your opponent, an LED, have never outweighed it's inability to produce Black. If running twelve lands, I still wouldn't run a fourth, as I have tried this also with little success. Versions running more than twelve should almost always add the fourth though.

    Before moving on to sideboard selections, I want to go over some commonly used cards that I have decided not to include in this list.

    Careful Study: Weak. Seriously. I have run this card in every iteration of the deck, and in numbers from one to four. I've never been anything but dissapointed. Yes, it does function as both draw, and discard. Yes, it can dig for answers, especially post-board. Unfortunately, it does none of this well; in most cases not even adequately. In almost every situation, I would prefer a more powerful and/or cheaper spell that might be limited in it's variety of uses.

    Akroma: Fast and evasive, but dies to most Legacy removal.

    Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair: These are good in the maindeck only. And only if you have an extra slot. Their utility doesn't make up for their lack of attack/defense capability in most cases though.

    Empyrial Archangel: While she seems good, think of the realities of when she would be useful. Her attack capability is the worst of these options. And any attack from the enemy that would be worrisome enough to block and/or use her ability, will kill her anyway. On the other hand, it's highly doubtful that the opponent can do an extra 20+ damage and survive your conter-attack if you re-animate Ancestor's Chosen

    Inkwell Leviathan: If you feel you need a big beater other than Grave-Troll, this is probably your best bet. The problem with this in theory is, if you expend a the needed resources to Dread Return him and your opponent can deal with him then you will likely lose.

    Lotus Petal: I don't get this one. The deck can rarely even use more than one mana on Turn One anyway. Permanent mana sources are always better, even if using LED.

    Brainstorm: I really tried to make this card viable. It boils down to two things that are as yet unsolveable. First, much like Careful Study, it encourages you to keep poor hands. And second, unlike Careful Study, it only has one mode of use; draw. The fact that it requires a discard outlet still makes it weaker than Breakthrough, which will at least discard your hand. Brainstorm tends to slow the deck down for this reason, and because it lends to a more conservative style of play.

    And now, on to current sideboard choices and reasoning:

    4 Greater Gargadon: Yeah, bizarre...I know. Some time ago, a discussion I had with the Hatfields and David Gearhart went deep into how truly weak a card Pithing Needle was in an aggressive deck. That realization, along with the recent melding of Relic of Progenitus with Tormod's Crypt as standard Ichorid hate led to my searching for an alternate answer. Literally, a stroll by the vendor's case while waiting for Jesse H. to finish Top, Fetch, Brainstorm, Top, etc, etc., gave me the lightbulb.

    Gargadon costs one; easily accomplished. Gargadon sacrifices Creatures, Lands, and Artifacts, all expendable assets in this deck, to bring out a huge creature. Gargadon gives an additional Dread Return target. Most importantly, Gargadon allows sacrifice at instant speed. That is insane in this deck. "While still in Upkeep, Swords your Ichorid." Uh...no. I'll remove a counter from Gargadon to fizzle your Swords. Oh, and get two Zombies. Punk. "Waste your Coliseum." Nice try. Sac it to Gargadon, my turn? Swing for lots. "During your draw, after Bridges hit, sac Fanatic to kill your Ichorid." In response, get tokens, and here comes Big Red.

    I know, none of this deals with Hate cards. Or can it? Not only can the instant speed of Gargadon's ability get maximum use in the face of a graveyard hoser, it can in some cases void it. Any combination of Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug makes an endlessly repeatable combo to where the enemy has virtually no good options. With PImp in play, you can recover from any grave-sweeper. With Thug in play, you can always return PImp to play by saccing Thug to Gargadon. If they can't kill PImp, you EOT sac Thug to return a Narcomoeba instead. Each of these cycles should also be gaining you Zombies. Board sweepers become irrelevant as well. If you have Thug and Narco, you get tokens. If you have Thug and PImp, you just continue Dredging the next turn. If you only have tokens, since they swept your board, and then they emptied your graveyard, well....they still have to deal with Big Red. He makes decisions for Aggro decks very difficult, and in conjunction with PImp and Thug, makes it impossible for control decks to win. Outside of Crypt and Relic, Jailer isn't really a threat compared to a resolved Gargadon.

    I need to add though, that this power is not without cost. Needle does answer things other than Crypt/Relic. And Needle is a mindless card; once cast you can forget it until it is removed. Gargadon makes you think about every priority pass in every phase. Especially when a Crypt, or Deed is active on the table. The reason I chose it, is if played right, not only can Gargadon allow you to win through those cards, it places an unbelievable amount of pressure on your opponent not only to answer your graveyard and creatures on board, but also the 9/7 coming in at a moment's notice. No Crypt or Chalice can do this. Try it for yourself, and see what tricks you can find.
    Last edited by Parcher; 07-23-2009 at 12:10 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Ichorid

    4 Chain of Vapor: I have seen a disturbing trend of decks replacing these for less generic sideboard cards. While I normally agree with this theory with Ichorid, this card is the exception. A major problem with Games Two and Three, is that especially against Black decks, you will often not know what cards your opponent will bring in against you. This is a serious issue since the typical Ichorid Hate cards are able to single-handedly shut your plan down. If you choose incorrectly, you could lose before the game has even started. Chain of Vapor is your "catch-all". It can bounce Crypt, Jailer, and Leyline so you can continue your combo. It can also get more non-specific problems such a Elephant Grass, or Propaganda out of the way. This slot is the only ones in the deck's 75 that has such flexibility in application, and therefore I feel it should always remain.

    3 Firestorm: I never cease to be amazed at how absolutely insane this card is in Ichorid. It's original inclusion was for a cheap answer to both Yixlid Jailer and Magus of the Moon, but it does so much more. The discard is a cost, so against permission decks, it foils their primary plan of stopping your discard outlets. It can also act as a devastating sweeper against swarm decks such as Goblins and Merfolk. Spot removal can often be needed against less common problems such as Goblin Sharpshooter or Platinum Angel. The other common use I've found is after a stall of creature attacks and damage dealt, going straight to the opponent's dome with a Firestorm as a finisher. Eternal Witness makes this easy even after Dredging your library away. The possibilities go on and on.

    2 Wispmare: Even though it has currently fallen to the lowest general usage since it's release, Leyline of the Void is still the one card that if played pre-game, this deck cannot reasonably beat. For this I refuse to go below six cards available to remove it. I choose Wispmare as a supplement to Chain for a few reasons. It gets the nod over Ray of Revelation simply due to the fact that you often won't get the two mana needed for it's original cost. The Evoke ability is relevant if you have Bridges active, and you can re-animate Wispmare in a pinch. Also, if you have someone mad enough to include Leyline and Counterbalance in the same deck, his casting cost gives a better chance of resolving. Can also be useful against certain enchantments typically seen such as Propaganda, Engineered Plague, and Pernicious Deed. Not a strict neccessity, but I highly recommend them.

    1 Unmask: Simply to supplement the three main deck since there's no more room.

    1 Ancestor's Chosen: Everyone likes a "fattie", or a "finisher" in this slot. I prefer to win. Sadistic Hypnotist and Sundering Titan are far more disruptive. Empyrial Archangel is better defensively, and Inkwell Behemoth is better offensively. The problem is, the decks these are brought in against all have ways to either stop, or remove them. An edict effect, or someone just dropping lands after you 'Geddon them ruins your plan. Also, it is rare that any of these will be effecitive against Combo, or decks with direct damage. Ancestor's Chosen gets around all of this simply due to his nature and the nature of the deck. Not only is he a 4/4 First Striker, but unless your opponent has a Stifle effect, you are gaining 30+ life if he hits play. Doesn't matter what they have to remove him after that, few decks can outrace a life swing that big. It also puts you out of Burn and Tendrils damage range. Since he also comes in effectively as a replacement for Flame-Kin against the creature-based decks that can easily remove your Bridges, I think he is the overall most effecient card at this slot.

    And the often used cards not in my current sideboard:

    Pithing Needle: This is a big one. The two most prevelant cards brought in against Ichorid are Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. This one card deals with both, but not at the same time. That is one of the reasons I have started to not use it. Not only are there some decks (specificallly ones with Trinket Mage) using both, but you really can't tell these days which one someone will bring in against you. I've even seen decks with Tarmogoyf side in Relic. Naming the wrong one with Needle can easily lead to a quick loss. Also, I never liked the fact that Needle is a purely defensive card. It's like saying, 'Please don't hurt me' when Ichorid should almost always be the bully. It's casting cost and versatility make it a genericaly useful card overall though.

    Chalice of the Void: I like this one a bit more since it can give Combo decks, our hardest match, fits. The problem is that the primary reason for inclusion was against Crypt. That just isn't reason enough anymore since you might never see one. Since you might never see a Combo deck either, I can't reason keeping this one in.

    Leyline of the Void: I never understood running this unless the field demanded it main deck. The only match where there is not a better answer is the mirror, and if that is a metagame concern you would be best off changing your deck choice. I also can't think of a single other match up where Ichorid needs graveyard hate.

    Darkblast/Contagion: Darkblast is good since it acts as an extra Dredger, and can be cast twice a turn if needed. Functionally, it works almost as well as Firestorm that way. The problem is against Tribal decks with Lords in them. Darkblast just won't get there. Also less than useful against Magus of the Moon. Contagion is just inferior to both.

    Ray of Revelation/Ancient Grudge: In this deck, costing two is reason enough to discount a card. Ray is specifically in this category since one of it's main purposes is removing Leyline of the Void. So the Flashback often will be irrelevant. Grudge is a bit more useful since while there are a smaller number of problematic Artifacts, you need to deal with the few that are played immediately. Dreadnought being the most prevelant. Grudge can also force the early use of a Relic or Crypt.

    The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED+Colisuem, or LED+DA allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when
    you can risk breaking that rule.

    Unfortunately with this deck, sample hands are less useful since lines of play with openers are usually obvious. I will however give some keepable sample hands, just as an example of what one might think was a mulligan.

    Gemstone Mine
    Cephalid Coliseum
    Cephalid Coliseum
    Breakthrough
    Cabal Therapy
    Ichorid
    Bridge from Below

    This hand breaks the cardinal rule of having no Dredger, but could be very good depending on if you know what your opponent is playing. I would blind open with Therapy on Force. Then cast Breakthrough for one on Turn two if you don't suspect Daze. Even if you don't have a Dredger for the first Colisuem, you should for the second.

    Unmask
    Cabal Therapy
    Cabal Therapy
    Ichorid
    Stinkweed Imp
    City of Brass
    Golgari Grave-Troll

    This hand has poor discard outlets and no draw, but is still keepable due to it's disruption. You open with Unmask on your opponent, then choose by what you see whether to Therapy you, or them that turn. You obviously do the opposite the following turn. If you know you are playing against a fast Aggro deck you likely will not keep this hand, since your Dredges might not be fast enough even with the early disruption. On the other hand, if this is post-board and you are on the play, many decks will keep weaker hands that have Hate in them. This hand will punish them hard for that gamble. Again, experience, judgement, and reading your opponent is critical.

    City of Brass
    Gemstone Mine
    Deep Analysis
    Bridge from Below
    Breakthrough
    Golgari Thug
    Stinkweed Imp

    This hand is the dreaded no discard(except technically Breakthrough) hand. It is highly effective in any case, since you can discard Turn Two(One on the draw) then cast Breakthrough. Against decks with countermagic, this is still effective since they cannot capitalize on the speed you lose without Breakthrough. Also if you Dredge a second Dredger, you can discard DA during your endstep, and likely can force it through with a Therapy by the following turn.

    LED
    Golgari Grave-Troll
    Gemstone Mine
    Putrid Imp
    Unmask
    Narcomoeba
    Eternal Witness

    Last one, and boy it's a doozy. Still hits three of the requirements, but no draw, and no disruption unless you want to lose your PImp. I'd only keep this against a Control deck since you can bait with the LED to cast PImp, and any Black spell gives you access to Unmask. This is too slow unless you are very lucky otherwise. If on the draw I would probably also keep regardless of whom I am playing against, since Breakthrough, DA, or Coliseum makes this hand a monster.

    A few seemingly keepable hands that aren't might be:

    LED
    Cephalid Coliseum
    Putrid Imp
    Unmask
    Dread Return
    Ichorid
    Firestorm

    There are two problems. First is that you can't cast Firestorm or PImp using Coliseum. The second is that there are no Dredgers. So your only draw forces you to discard your hand, and you have no other decent discard. Even drawing a 5C Land may not save you if you don't get a Dredger. If you had a Gemstone or a Dredger you could keep this, but not as is.

    City of Brass
    Undiscovered Paradise
    Putrid Imp
    Stinkweed Imp
    Stinkweed Imp
    Bridge from Below
    Deep Analysis

    Blind, you can't run this. The problem is that you have only one discard spell. If they counter it, you will likely lose. They will be in control by the time you can EOT discard or hard-cast a Stinkweed, and likely won't care by then. And against an Aggro deck this isn't great either since it's pretty slow, and extremely slow if they destroy a land to void DA. If you know you are playing against a non-Blue deck with no land destruction, you could keep it.

    Unmask
    Cabal Therapy
    Cabal Therapy
    Gemstone Mine
    Cephalid Coliseum
    Narcomoeba
    Ichorid

    This last one is the hand that cost me 2008 Legacy Champs. I kept it Game Three against Dragon Stompy on the play. He had no Mountains, and I took both of his Red sources on Turn One. I then hardcast Therapy again Turn two to get both Pit-Dragons in his hand. I died nine turns later after even resolving a Breakthrough, never having seen a Dredger. Colisuem doesn't count as draw with this opening, and obviously no Dredger means I should have mulliganed. Getting over-excited about raping your opponent's hand in the round-of-eight is a bad thing.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On to match-up analysis and sideboarding. With Ichorid the former is barely notable and the latter is probably more important than with any other deck. Ichorid is as rightly feared due to it's tremendous advantage in Game One against the greater portion of any Legacy field. This, combined with the fact that you won't know your opponent's deck for most of your first games makes pre-board matches less than important to write about. Instead, I'm going to go directly to sideboarding and strategy for both Games Two and Three. All will assume being on the draw Game Two and on the play Game Three just for expediency. Game Three sideboarding is from the original deck configuration, not from Game Two. Please remember that this is only a guide, and as such should be considered both malleable, and customizable to your own card selections and meta-game.
    Last edited by Parcher; 06-01-2009 at 12:12 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Ichorid

    Blue-Based Aggro-Control: This includes Threshold, Thrash, Dreadstill, Baseruption,and NLU but NOT Merfolk.

    Game Two: +4 Gargadon, +4 Chain of Vapor, -3 Unmask, -3 LED, -2 DA

    Unmask loses effectiveness when on the draw, and you will already know what they are playing. LED is too dangerous against Crypt/Relic in general, but I keep one to use with Witness if the opportunity presents. DA is weak without LED, and you probably won't need the speed boost it gives against Aggro-Control post-board. Sidenote: Never do the above suggested removal of 6 discard outlets without a comparable replacement against any Aggro or Combo deck. I only do so against Control due to the fact that they are slower, and that using your end step to discard is often viable against them.

    These decks will bring in Crypt, Relic, and in some cases Yixlid Jailer. You want to have an answer for each, and Chain is the best since you often have time against these decks to bounce their Hate EOT. Chain can also get rid of the very dangerous Phyrexian Dreadnought. Do not use an LED or Breakthrough unless you are reasonably certain you can either win that turn, or put enough pressure on the board that losing your graveyard the next will be irrelevant. Firestorm is good against Jailer and is uncounterable discard, but I don't bring extras since it will rarely hit for more than three until it is too late. This could leave you with important cards stuck in hand. You are often best off following the classic DDD(Draw, Discard,Dredge) plan until you can exploit an opening.

    These matches are also where Gargadon shines. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp without seeing it in action, but he makes them unloseable. He is the reason for the only time Gearhart threw his deck in frustration at someone during a tournament. To try and break down Gargadon's usage; your obvious goal is to play him turn one. From then on, any time a permanent would hit the graveyard, it gets sacrificed to Gargadon first. That's the easy part. Protecting your Ichorids from StP is also very important against Aggro-Control. Add to that the fact that you will almost always get Zombies from any sacrifice since these decks have no feasible way to remove your Bridges, and you can start to see where the domination begins. Then, since their Swords will sit in hand useless with Gargadon protecting, it becomes a simple matter to discard them before he comes into play.

    Now comes the more difficult part; after they land their Crypt/Relic. What Gargadon does in this case is force their hand. Say you have a PImp, and Narcomoeba, and a Zombie token in play. You are recurring a single Ichorid from slow-Dredging, and have one Bridge in the graveyard. If they use Crypt, first, it will be easy to recover your graveyard since you have PImp, and haven't over-committed. Second, you can still sac Narcomoeba to get an additional token in response. So your opponent will still have two Zombies and PImp, and possibly Big Red coming at him next turn regardless of what you Dredge. But what if he has Pyroclasm(or the like)? You don't sac, you get the two tokens, and beat with those and the Ichorid. What if they have both Crypt, and a sweeper? Well, you should have aimed discard at their targeted removal in this case so you can sac everything to Gargadon, and he should swing for the win. Keep in mind it should only get this bad if they have some combination of Brainstorm and Top to protect their hand.

    As mentioned before, if you can hardcast Thug and PImp with Gargadon on the table, it is impossible for them to win. You will recurse your discard outlet anytime they atempt to remove it, and on turns they don't you can get another free Narcomoeba. Since these decks can't kill their own creatures, and they are all bigger than yours, your Bridges will always stay active. And even a full board sweeper only gains you Zombies, you replace a Narcomoeba, then Dredge back Thug and cast him again. Even a Relic does nothing since you can always save an extra Dredger in hand, and recurse PImp with Thug.

    Game Three: +1 Unmask, +4 Chain of Vapor, -2 LED, -1 DA, -1 Firestorm, -1 Ichorid

    This plan is assuming you see nothing more threatening the Crypt/Relic or Jailer in Game Two, and you are playing first. The eight turn-one discard spells give you a very good chance of removing any hate before they can cast it. If not, you still have 4 PImp and 4 Chain to either play around it, or bounce it. If they have the Force of Will in addition to the Crypt, you can only hope that they didn't get anything else decent in that hand. Your plan otherwise, is to check for hate, and combo off as soon as possible. This is one of the games where skill with the deck actually is very important, since you can't overload the deck with anti-hate cards and still keep enough of the engine intact to hope for an early combo.

    Non-Black Aggro: This includes Goblins, Elves, Affinity, Dragon Stompy, Zoo, Death and Taxes, and, Burn.

    Game Two: +4 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +4 Gargadon, -3 Unmask, -2 DA, -1 FKZ, -3 LED

    These again are decks that will bring in Crypt and/or Relic. Unfortunately for them, they have no way to counter, or discard your few important spells. Your main plan is still to wait until a turn you can Dredge a large amount without fear of Crypt, but it is less likely against true Aggro since they have a much faster clock. Firestorm is an absolute beating against these, since if done for three or more it gurantees a board sweep. It also lets you wait until EOT to see if they will lay a Crypt. These matches often become a damage race, and Firestorm will help you win those, especially if you can Witness one in the late game when your hand will likely be full.

    If they open with a Crypt/Relic, you have to be a bit more cagey. Greater Gargadon help with this situation for multiple reasons. First, you will have to Dredge to some degree to force them to blow their Hate card. Gargadon will allow you to fully exploit this since these are decks used to never allowing Bridge tokens. With all of your creatures now leaving play at cost/sacrifice speed, you'll at least get tokens once, and they still lose their guy. These decks also have virtually no way of dealing with a resolved Gargadon. Always remember to stack damage then sac in every combat, and for every land they destroy. Even superflous LEDs can bring him in at instant speed. With Gargadon you do get a few better overall options, but he is not as strong here as against control. One thing I have tried is bringing in a Sutured Ghoul along with the 4 Gargadons to re-animate. His Trample and power in those cases made him a guaranteed win, but there were times I lost
    before he could attack.

    This is why I have stuck with Ancestor's Chosen. The Zealot win will rarely happen against Aggro since not only can they easily kill their own creatures to remove Bridges, they can also kill your Ichorids and Narcomoebas before your main phase. It isn't that difficult through a comination of those three, and possible hardcast guys, to get enough creatures into play to Dread Return at least once. Chosen is the best target in this case since not only is he a semi-large First Striker, but you really don't have to worry about blocking once he hits. True story; I once beat a Burn deck with 60 life remaining(just to piss him off).

    Allow me to give a quick example of an actual game for reference:

    I'm playing in Game Three against Goblins. He's Crypted me once, and I have just started to recover after going back and forth for a few turns, but hes is pretty drained as well. He has a Matron, Ringleader, and Piledriver in play and is tapped out. I bring back my only Ichorid, and Dredge a single Bridge. I then attack, and he blocks with Matron. With damage on the stack, I Firestorm for all four remaining cards in my hand targeting Piledriver, Ringleader, Ichorid and my opponent. He loses his whole board and takes four while I lose my Bridge, and get a token to attack along with an Ichorid next turn unless he top decks a Crypt. He doesn't

    Game Three: +1 Unmask, +3 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -1 FKZ, -1 Eternal Witness, -2 DA, -1 LED

    Again, assuming you are on the play, you want to maximize your chance of discarding any Hate and/or comboing out as early as possible. You have to be more careful on the play with this plan though. If you open with land, pass with the intention of an EOT Firestorm, they can easily hose you with their play of Waste your land, and after you Firestorm for two in response, Crypt you. If they play Relic instead, obviously this is not an option. If they play Wasteland and you suspect this, only keep a hand with LED and/or PImp to insure a discard outlet. Therapy also gains strength on the play in Game Three since you can more safely make a blind name on turn one. These decks don't have access to draw or filtering, so it's worth the gamble that they won't top deck their hate if the coast looks clear. You also can't afford to sandbag a Firestorm Game Three since they will be expecting it and play more conservatively. This is extremely relevant against Afinity and Burn, who can beat you without actual combat damage. Affinity is one of the most difficult match-ups for Ichorid, so unless you suspect them baiting for Crypt, take out their threats as soon as you can. It will often leave their more expensive creatures stranded in their hand, or punish a creature-light hand. I've had situations when they expected to win with Plating and Crypt, but I first-turn Therapied their Crypt, killed their first two creatures with Firestorm, and left them were stuck with an uncastable guy and some useless equipment.

    Black-based Aggro: This includes Suicide Black, Eva Green, RGB Survival Advantage, Aggro Loam, and Aggro Rock.

    Game Two: +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Wispmare +1 Firestorm, -3 Unmask, -2 Putrid Imp, -1 LED, -1 DA

    These decks require a very different game plan than the previous for two specific reasons, Leyline and discard. Leyline of the Void is a Hate card that you can't discard before they can play it, and you can practically never win with it in play. You have to carefully evaluate your opening hand on the draw in Game Two. You must expect that they will open with discard(except most Aggro Loam versions), so a hand with a single discard outlet probably only can be risked if it's a first-turn win, or if it is generally good, with a way to remove Leyline. The deck still has 15 discard outlets post-board, so it's not a huge problem. If they do open with Leyline, and follow with a Thoughtseize though, you're in deep trouble.

    On the other hand, you can go "all-in" with a Breakthrough or LED with impunity since they have no way to punish it. This is why the majority of these enablers remain in. If they don't land the pre-game Leyline, you should probably destroy them. You can afford to lose some PImps since Firestorm replaces them as discard, and again, they can't punish you for pitching your hand. Firestorm is great against the weenies of Sui and Survival, and can even kill Tombstalker if they overextend. Leyline also easily makes Tarmogoyf within Firestorm range.

    Game Three: See below.

    If they run Leyline, then your sideboard plan doesn't change. However, these decks still have the capability to side in Jailer, Crypt, Engineered, Plague, etc. instead or in addition. In this case, alter your sideboard choices more toward the similar plans listed for these cards earlier. Plague should not even be an issue unless they have time to land multiples. Wispmare alone should be enough insurance against this.

    Storm Combo: Tendrils of Agony based.

    Games Two and Three: +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +1 Unmask, +1 Firestorm, -1 Ichorid, -2 Putrid Imp

    Obviously you want to outrace them if possible, and the additional Unmask is there for extra disruption as well as an extra hope of the first-turn Breakthrough. Chosen is in addition to the other two DR targets if you can partially go off, but not enough to win that turn. The life gain will put you out of Tendrils range for some time. Discard will not liely be needed over multiple turns, and it is rare that PImp will have time to attack for significant damage. So having the 2 Firestorms not only gives you a chance of a burn finish from attacking then Witnessing it back, but you can punish a greedy Combo player with an extra 2-3 points if in hand. Neither deck really sides in much for the other, so just be certain to only keep very fast or highly disruptive hands.

    Merfolk: Uhhhhh.....Merfolk?

    Game Two: +3 Firestorm, +4 Chain of Vapor, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -1 Unmask, -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 FKZ

    Merfolk runs a set of Relics, and has countermagic, so LED is a generally bad idea. On the other hand, unless they are desperate enough to board in Hydroblast, the only way they have to stop Firestorm is Force and maybe Daze. Your discard should easily handle that. And boy, does Firestorm ever wreck Merfolk. Their reliance on Lords makes even casting for three absolutely devastating. And the creatures they run are small enough that they can't expect to race you unless they overextend into it. Unfortunately sometimes, you have to play into a Relic with Firestorm just to slow them down. Don't hesitate to do it, but look for the most opportune moment.

    Chain can go in for many reasons, but the best one is that Relic is slow, and if you can get Chain active in the first three turns, you will likely be able to bounce it unhindered. Late game they still have to watch for this, but are more apt to have relevant disruption. Chain can always bounce a Lord or Wakethrasher in a pinch. If you are in a sutation where you can re-animate Ichorids and let them die each turn just to get tokens, and your opponent is stupid enough to try and save Cursecatcher to get rid of Bridges, DON'T CAST ANYTHING. They'll never outrace that unless they draw a Relic. And unlike similar decks, Merfolk has virtually no deck manipulation.

    Game Three: +1 Unmask, +2 Firestorm, +3 Chain, -1 Dread Return, -2 LED, -2 DA, -1 Eternal Witness,

    Here's where things get interesting. In addition to the Relics, Merfolk can bring in some combination of Hydroblast, Jitte, and/or Echoing Truth. Normally I'd lose the Chains here for Gargadon. But you have to be prepared to deal with multiple problematic cards. So you can discard the early Relic, and still have Chain to deal with a Jitte later. Echoing Truth you can easily play around, or discard if you know it's coming. If they Force your early discard, you have to assume that they are protecting a Relic. Plan accordingly.

    I think that's all for now folks. I try and answer questions as best as I can if there are any. Thanks for reading, and best of luck!
    Last edited by Parcher; 05-25-2009 at 06:50 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Ichorid

    Awesome primer.

    Greater Gargadon... Wow. That's pretty darn cool. I'm still trying to wrap my head around dropping Needles, and thinking of the timing required to combat Crypt/Relic with Gargs instead of Needles - but maybe I'll understand it more in due time. Maybe with match-up analysis, you could tell us how to use Gargs effectively in real game situations?
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    Re: Ichorid

    I was really waiting for this, and it's written fantastically. Thank you. I'm looking forward to the matchup analysis.

    I find it hard to see how Gargadon actually funtions as an answer against graveyard hate. However big it may be, I'd think it's dead at times, especially when your opponent uses graveyard hate, and you have no outs anymore. Doesn't it simply walk into StP too often?
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    Re: Ichorid

    Bumped for updates.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGruber View Post
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  7. #7

    Re: Ichorid

    Really nice primer, I enjoyed reading it a lot. I was thinking of switching to the non LED version of Ichorid, but might do otherwise now!

  8. #8

    Re: Ichorid

    :( This means that I'm going to have to start considering Ichorid a part of my metagame again.

    In all seriousness this was an amazingly written primer, the sideboard options were probably the most helpful for me.
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    It's super secret tech. How do you SB against Team America, AdN Combo, Landstill, Solidarity, AND Painter/Grindstone?
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    Second step: Install anything else, if you want windows, use XP.

  9. #9

    Re: Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    The reason I chose it, is if played right, not only can Gargadon allow you to win through those cards, if places an unbelievable amount of pressure on your opponent not only to answer your graveyard and creatures on board, but also the 9/11 coming in at a moment's notice. No Crypt or Chalice can do this. Try it for yourself, and see what tricks you can find.
    I'm going to assume the "9/11" thing is just a Freudian slip, and not just in tremendously poor taste. Still, please change it.

  10. #10

    Re: Ichorid

    I lol'ed. But seriously, it's not like 9/11 isn't a real date that didn't exist before or outside the context of what happened. I mean, for all we know it could be his birthday. Just because your American (and so am I), doesn't mean you have to get all hyped up whenever that combination of numbers comes up.
    But, ya, it should be changed because it's incorrect.

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    Re: Ichorid

    While I am certainly convinced that Gargadon is cool and quite good at what you want it to do I still think that Needle is better. It doesn't let you play arround their hate, it simply renders their hate useless. The only situation where I find Needle to be a very weak card is when my opponent is running several different pieces of hate which doesn't occur very often because nobody wants to devote a large part is his sideboard to the Ichorid matchup.

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    Re: Ichorid

    Originally Posted by Parcher
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll/4 Stinkweed Imp/3 Golgari Thug: Some time ago, people much better at math than myself calculated that in a 60-card deck, the line for having the best chance of having a card in your opening seven without redundancy was at the number eleven.

    ...just a question: Is the highest chance not at 8 cards?

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    Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
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    Re: Ichorid

    Thanks for the appreciation guys.

    @Ozy: We have a lot in common. I too like to go through huge blocks of tremendously researched and time-proven detailed text that you can't find anywhere else, and find simple a two-digit mistake, and then be a complete douche about it. We should hang out!

    For whatever reason, I can't edit the post. It just shows as blank when the screen pops up.

    @Yawg: I did mention that I didn't know anything about math, right? I got the number crunching from someone who I assumed knew what they were talking about. It's worked out well for me, so I haven't questioned it. If you find some formula that works out better for you, than go for it.
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    Re: Ichorid

    I might as well get the mathematical facts straight on this one:

    Yawg. is right that the chance for having exactly one dredge card in your opening hand is highest with 8 dredge cards in your maindeck (around 42%; seven and nine dredge cards both lead to a percentage of 41%). BUT the percentage of having exactly one dredge card isn't the most important factor here, because starting hands with more than one dredge card are not necessarily worse.

    The most important factor is that starting hands WITHOUT a dredge card are very bad for this deck. Having eleven dredge cards in your deck pushes the percentage of having NO dredge cards in your opening seven below 25% (meaning that less than one out of four opening hands don't have a dredger).

    As a big fan of Careful Study in this deck, I have to say that running a few of them allows you to cut one dredger, because the additional draw statistically leads to a better chance of seeing a dredge card on the first turn, as you now have a chance of 74,8 % of drawing one in your opening hand and an additional chance of drawing one in Careful Study's two cards (if you see one) - of course this might make mulligan decisions more difficult, though.


    Edit: Oh, and very nice primer, Parcher! Nice work!
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    Re: Ichorid

    Needle vs Gargadon comes IMO down to this:

    Gargadon allows you to play around the hate more easily.
    Needle shuts down the hate, when he hits the table.
    Needle can be countered, Gargadon not.

    Needle and Chain do the same thing, where Gargadon complements the deck in another way. I think that not a bad thing.
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    Re: Ichorid

    Hello,
    your decklist is original, and I'll probally bring it to a tournament.
    But, I'm not sure to understand teh gargeddon, sure, he can be really good in some situation, but what do you do versus and early crypt or an early relic ?
    If the know how to use them, they can stall the game so much and outrace you.

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    Re: Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic View Post
    Needle vs Gargadon comes IMO down to this:

    Gargadon allows you to play around the hate more easily.
    Needle shuts down the hate, when he hits the table.
    Needle can be countered, Gargadon not.

    Needle and Chain do the same thing, where Gargadon complements the deck in another way. I think that not a bad thing.
    Why can't Gargadon be countered?

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    Re: Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by keys View Post
    Why can't Gargadon be countered?
    Suspending a card is a game action, similar to playing a land or drawing a card for the draw step.

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    Re: Ichorid

    But it can be countered when it resolves...

    Great primer. Can see you put a lot of effort in it. Great work!
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    Re: Ichorid

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    But it can be countered when it resolves...
    That's what I'm saying...

    I feel like if you give a player 3-4 turns to respond to Gargadon he's going to find the removal or counter to deal with it when/after it resolves...

    I appreciate that you can sac in response to StP with it, but I just don't think this is as Parcher is suggesting. It's kind of like trying to play Stifle/Deadnought in a deck that's not Dreadstill; you need the protection to back it up, otherwise it's just an easy target.

    Awesome Primer, though. I definitely learned a few things.

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