Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

[munkie]

Sol Ring might be better than Lotus overall. But it's fucking Black Lotus. And that is the point of the cube. So I'm not going to argue anymore about irrelevant formats since that's what most people on here like to argue about... irrelevant bullshit. So if anyone wants to argue REAL limited ALA-CON-ARB or something, then PM me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I take all formats seriously, because playing to lose isn't fun. I only have fun when I'm trying to win.

Heading that off at the pass.

The problem here is that people seem to be approaching Cube like they're building Vintage decks. You're not. Mana Drain is worse than Rout. Library of Alexandria is worse than Volrath's Stronghold. Ancestral Recall is worse than Skullclamp. Tinker is worse than Masked Admirers, and Sol Ring is worse than any given Dual. Your deck contains some truly busted cards from Magic's history, but you don't have the luxury of playing up to four copies and tailoring your mana curve for the turn three kill. Understand that you're still in a Limited environment and the rules of Limited apply.

[munkie]

All I need to say is that I built a 750 card cube with only a handful of proxies. We obviously took it seriously. I have drafted it countless times. There is no real strategy when you have a true cube. You can only go with what you open. See: 2007 Magic Invitational Cube Draft List. Card for card, that is what I built with Nightmare a year and a half ago.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Did you replace the Deed yet?

Also;

While a degree of flexibility is necessary in any limited format, and Cube especially, there's still reasonable priorities. The fact that Sol Ring is the best mana accelerant doesn't change the fact that mana accelerants are just a lot less powerful in Limited than in Constructed. I don't think I've ever seen a Cube pack that didn't have at least five better first picks than Sol Ring.

Let me put it this way;

In most Constructed matchups and games, your opening hand of seven cards contains well over 50% of the cards you'll see naturally in that game. Most decks that tend to see more specifically have card advantage or selection engines in place; that is, in fact, the greatest difficulty in building non-blue control.

In most Limited games, your opening hand contains well under 50% of the cards you'll see in a matchup. The topdeck value of a card jumps drastically. Mana accelerants, discard and counterspells are all a lot worse for this reason. For any given card, you're less likely to see it in the opening hand and more likely to see it off the top.

[munkie]

mana accelerants are just a lot less powerful in Limited than in Constructed

...with close to 1,000 sanctioned limited matches under my belt and thousands more non-sanctioned. I respectfully disagree. I hate to say it, Jack, but if we are going to argue Limited strategy, you will be outclassed. I don't really argue Legacy since I know my place.

Again, I said I am no longer arguing about the irrelevant cube as we have already found that there is a bevy of strategies that produce winning decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let me tell you about a guy who used to play at the Frog named Keith Fiodori.


Moral of the story:

I'd rather hear about how to quit smoking from the guy that did it once than the guy who's done it hundreds of times. Repetition doesn't mean anything except that you have a way of doing things you're familiar with. Doesn't mean it's the best way.

Also, most Moxen and Sol Ring, most mana accelerants in Limited are generally mana fixers. I would draft Sakura-Tribe Elder above Sol Ring, for instance. For that matter, I'd take Terramorphic Expanse over Sol Ring. (Oshit I went there)

I would not, however, draft an off-color karoo or signet highly in Ravnica block, for instance, although on color these cards might be very powerful indeed.

Even then, however, when it comes to on-color removal or bombs versus on color mana acceleration, there's generally not a question. A card like Coalition Relic or Kodama's Reach might get picked over a poor removal spell like, say, Pull Under or Feebleness, but that's not the usual pecking order.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

I disagree about Harmonize. It's always better to go with low color commitment early if possible, unless it's a color-cutting situation.

I would also value Icy less than I would in other formats, because in core-limited, for example, the artifact removal all sucks, so you can pretty much guarantee that Icy will stick. Not so in Cube.

So after Ink-Eyes, in that pack, I'd probably go with Sol Ring. Or one of the real Moxen, if available.

But again, Black Lotus is completely different, as is Time Walk for that matter.

Time Walk in Cube is kind of like a shitty Savage Beating.

Wait a minute. Savage Beating IS in Cube, right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You would pick a random Moxen over Lightning Bolt, or Harmonize, or Icy Manipulator.

You're fucking terrible, and I hope you get mauled by bears.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Yes, I would, because there are only 5 moxen, whereas there are plenty of removal spells better than Bolt or Icy, and draw spells better than Harmonize.

Those are hardly the bar in that format, Jack.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, I would, because there are only 5 moxen, whereas there are plenty of removal spells better than Bolt or Icy, and draw spells better than Harmonize.

Those are hardly the bar in that format, Jack.

And had I wheels, I'd be a fucking wagon. But what's your point?

Blightning's actually one of the best limited discard spells by a mile, but it's still dreck. Being the best at dreck or third tier effects isn't something to brag about.

You're not sure you're going to get those better removal spells or card draw or threats. If you want a deck packed with powerful spells, you'd better start picking up the best you can get now and not turn up your nose until someone passes Skullclamp and Meloku your fucking way.

I hope the bears spit on you and remind you of the meaninglessness of your existence as they're mauling you.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm glad that your arguments aren't retarded.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm glad that the last thoughts to cross your mind will be the supreme futility of all human suffering and desire as the bear tears your head off with a single swipe of it's mighty paw.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Yeah, me too.

[mujadaddy]

I think we need a motivational poster of Spatch getting eaten by bears that says, "And then... he was enlightened."

[Jujuhawk]

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. There's a rank to awesomness, as we already went over. If you pick Sol Ring over Ink-Eyes, Icy Manipulator or even Harmonize you're wrong and your deck will be weaker than it would have been.

Pretty sure Sol Ring is the best non-power in any cube I've seen, and it's an auto windmill in my friends' cubes. If you're giving me a second pick sol ring I'm totally fine with that. Enjoy your terrible black card, I'm just gonna jump 2 turns ahead of you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pretty sure Sol Ring is the best non-power in any cube I've seen, and it's an auto windmill in my friends' cubes. If you're giving me a second pick sol ring I'm totally fine with that. Enjoy your terrible black card, I'm just gonna jump 2 turns ahead of you.

You just called Ink-Eyes a terrible limited card.

I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline.

I will address it to point out that if you don't have an actual argument or any knowledge of how limited works, you probably shouldn't contribute to tangent discussions.

[Maverick676]

I think what he is trying to say is that while something like Ink-Eyes is a bomb there are alot of bombs in cube. However there is no other card like sol ring, being able to play your bombs 2 turns before your opponents is a huge advantage. While I would generally agree that mana accel is the last thing you should pick in limited, I think sol ring is an exception to this rule as it puts you ahead two turns and can come down turn 1.

[Jujuhawk]

You just called Ink-Eyes a terrible limited card.

I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline.

I will address it to point out that if you don't have an actual argument or any knowledge of how limited works, you probably shouldn't contribute to tangent discussions.

I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.

[jthanatos]

I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.

I would just like to point out a small issue I have with a lot of your posts. You constantly reference your friends, who are apparently quite good at magic. I, too, have a friend that plays in the NFL...however, I am not a quality first round draft pick.

Edit: In draft, always, bombs are better than accelerants. Sol Ring may be a really good tempo boost, but almost all drafts, even cube, make mid-late game, and I want to be ripping bombs and card draw off the top...not mana.