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Thread: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

  1. #41
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujuhawk View Post
    I'm pretty sure my limited rating is probably 100 points higher than yours, and sol ring is the best card in a non-power cube, and the friends that I play with agree, but idk, only 2 of the 3 I 2v2'd last time have top 8'd a limited GP so they probably don't know what they're talking about either.

    also, ink eye's is fine, but you probably will be so far behind my sol ring start that the game won't be close.
    What's funny is that you're probably under the impression that this was somehow a zinger or something.

    I'm trying to avoid just insulting you, but try to avoid making this so difficult.

    It's bad enough that you're putting Sol Ring over Ink Eyes, which it definitely doesn't deserve, but unless your Cube list is missing the best sweepers (Damnation, Wrath of God, Deed, Disk, Vengeance) or the best equipment (Jitte, Skullclamp, SoFI, SoLS) this isn't even anywhere in the realm of possibility for someone that's not inebriated or brain damaged.

    Cube isn't just a lot of bomb threats. There's a lot of answers in Cube. Cube games generally don't end quickly, because sweepers and removal are more prolific even than in real limited, and the mana curves are usually worse.

    Even if you see Sol Ring in your opening hand instead of topdecking it when it's useless- and this is a big assumption- most of the time you're plowing ahead into better plays because the opponent picked more bombs than you.

    Sol Ring is absolutely fantastic when you don't have to pass up powerful cards to get to it. It is by no means worth passing up those powerful cards.

    People say that Sol Ring is the best card in Cube because it's a fucking meme. That's it. Evan Erwin and other people that made the format popular spread it around, but I'm going to be honest with you; Evan Erwin is not your fucking friend if you're looking for top level strategic advice.

    People also keep thinking they're building fucking Vintage decks when they see power. You're not. This is still limited.

    I'll repeat it;

    Most cards you see in limited you rip off the top. This is a huge part of what makes the dynamic different than Constructed. Cards that are terrible off the top are usually bad unless you can build the deck to support them. Sol Ring, if backed up with other mana acceleration and a bunch of fatties might make a decent deck.... but it would pretty much always be worse than the mana acceleration provided by killing your opponent's shit.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

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  3. #43

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    What's funny is that you're probably under the impression that this was somehow a zinger or something.

    I'm trying to avoid just insulting you, but try to avoid making this so difficult.

    It's bad enough that you're putting Sol Ring over Ink Eyes, which it definitely doesn't deserve, but unless your Cube list is missing the best sweepers (Damnation, Wrath of God, Deed, Disk, Vengeance) or the best equipment (Jitte, Skullclamp, SoFI, SoLS) this isn't even anywhere in the realm of possibility for someone that's not inebriated or brain damaged.

    Cube isn't just a lot of bomb threats. There's a lot of answers in Cube. Cube games generally don't end quickly, because sweepers and removal are more prolific even than in real limited, and the mana curves are usually worse.

    Even if you see Sol Ring in your opening hand instead of topdecking it when it's useless- and this is a big assumption- most of the time you're plowing ahead into better plays because the opponent picked more bombs than you.

    Sol Ring is absolutely fantastic when you don't have to pass up powerful cards to get to it. It is by no means worth passing up those powerful cards.

    People say that Sol Ring is the best card in Cube because it's a fucking meme. That's it. Evan Erwin and other people that made the format popular spread it around, but I'm going to be honest with you; Evan Erwin is not your fucking friend if you're looking for top level strategic advice.

    People also keep thinking they're building fucking Vintage decks when they see power. You're not. This is still limited.

    I'll repeat it;

    Most cards you see in limited you rip off the top. This is a huge part of what makes the dynamic different than Constructed. Cards that are terrible off the top are usually bad unless you can build the deck to support them. Sol Ring, if backed up with other mana acceleration and a bunch of fatties might make a decent deck.... but it would pretty much always be worse than the mana acceleration provided by killing your opponent's shit.

    And it is apparent to me that you don't value tempo in limited, and would rather pack your deck full of bombs. I've seen some insane sealed decks with Archangel, broodmate, cruel ultimatum, and ajani vengeant with good fixing. This is sick, but you just lose to an aggressive deck. Sol Ring is going to be good in every deck you play. You're not committing at all to any sort of archetype (but if you get the artifacts/tezzeret one it's gold obv), and it's insane no matter what you play against.

    The only time sol ring is ever bad is like turn 10. Usually turn 5 or 6 it's fine because I'm basically playing 2 lands for 1 card, like a bounceland (but with no tempo loss!). Sol Ring is pure card advantage in itself, and if you have it in your opener it's so hard to lose. Obviously you're going to lose if your deck is sol ring and then 23 other terrible cards, but you're going to see other bombs, and sol ring lets you play them faster than your opponents.

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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Uh. You still lose one mana playing the Sol Ring. Past anything but the first few turns I'd much rather have a karoo land if it does anything at all to fix my colors.

    And a much more reliable way of maintaining tempo in limited, a lot like Constructed actually, is to run removal. I pick up removal so that I don't have to run crappy mana accelerants to stay ahead; and the removal, unlike Sol Ring, is good off the top.

    I don't first pick anything that's going to suck late game. I just don't. Most games go to late game. You think you're going to avoid this by getting that first turn Sol Ring, but you probably won't draw it and even if you do, your threats probably won't be able to finish me off. If you've been first picking jewelry, you're going to lose out when I start dropping better threats and better answers.

    Categorically, sweepers and power equipment, as well as cards like Serrated Arrows and Cursed Scroll and Icy Manipulator, are always better than Sol Ring or Moxen in every single deck that is in that color. And some of those that aren't.

    That wasn't even a particularly strong pack I opened, but if you're going to first pick Sol Ring there you're crazy.

    Tell me honestly now;

    Do you first pick Llanowar Elves, or Blastoderm?

    Is your love of mana acceleration based around anything more than the desire for toys you can't play with in Legacy?
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Better sample pack:

    Nekrataal
    Skullclamp
    Blood Crypt
    Selesnya Signet
    Juggernaut
    Vedalken Shackles
    Kodama of the North Tree
    Putrefy
    Creakwood Liege
    Knight of the White Orchid
    Wall of Roots
    Control Magic
    Exalted Angel
    Skyshroud Elite

    Throw Sol Ring in there and justify to me how you would first pick it.
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  6. #46

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    If you're honestly going to compare sol ring and llanowar elves then there's no further reason for me to debate this, and if you're first picking serrated arrows over it, I'm fine with that.

    In that pack: Sol Ring and clamp are close, but we generally 2v2 with packs of 9, so you're not going to get absurd packs like that. I'd let neighbors fight over blue with 2 control magics in the pack, and it really depends on what's in the cube :\.

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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Skullclamp
    Exalted Angel
    Control Magic
    Nekrataal
    Sol Ring
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  8. #48

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    p1p1 sol ring or clamp, but just throwing 5 ridiculous cards out there gets me nowhere really. There are so many components of a first pick that are important. Neighbor draft preference, what's IN the cube, what the best colors are, etc. If both my neighbors like X aggro decks then I'll take the sol ring every time and try not to get into a clamp deck.

    EDIT: How are you losing a mana playing the sol ring? You're gaining 1 first turn and 2 the second turn when you get to untap with everything.

    EDIT2: Also, I love how you're just throwing shit out there saying my deck is going to be a pile because I picked a double land essentially over a spell. I'm going to see other bombs, and the sol ring is not coming back. All the cube is composed of is bombs, and if mine are online before yours I'm winning the game probably.

  9. #49

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Doesn't mean it's the best way.
    I have won a Limited Grand Prix Trial and Top 8'ed a Limited PTQ. The fuck I don't know the right way to evaluate limited play. I don't normally brag of my accomplishments, but considering the relative few number of times I had to try to do so, I think I have earned my right to say I know what the fuck I'm doing. And what real Limited experience do you have, Jack Elgin? What real Limited success do you have to back up your opinion other than just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong?"

    (Oshit I went there)
    /end even looking at this thread again.
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  10. #50

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Wow, I didn't read this post until now, but wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Let me tell you about a guy who used to play at the Frog named Keith Fiodori.


    Moral of the story:

    I'd rather hear about how to quit smoking from the guy that did it once than the guy who's done it hundreds of times. Repetition doesn't mean anything except that you have a way of doing things you're familiar with. Doesn't mean it's the best way.

    Also, most Moxen and Sol Ring, most mana accelerants in Limited are generally mana fixers. I would draft Sakura-Tribe Elder above Sol Ring, for instance. For that matter, I'd take Terramorphic Expanse over Sol Ring. (Oshit I went there)

    I would not, however, draft an off-color karoo or signet highly in Ravnica block, for instance, although on color these cards might be very powerful indeed.

    Even then, however, when it comes to on-color removal or bombs versus on color mana acceleration, there's generally not a question. A card like Coalition Relic or Kodama's Reach might get picked over a poor removal spell like, say, Pull Under or Feebleness, but that's not the usual pecking order.

    1. Card advantage is one of the most important things. You saying that you didn't value off-color bouncelands highly is just a red flag that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Those lands are 2 for 1's. That's it. If I can get to high mana before you I have a better chance, and that's what karoos did. Also, like basically all limited specialists disagree with you on that if that means anything.

    2. If you're taking terramorphic expanse over sol ring then you are actually completely braindead. These two cards aren't even close in power level.

    3. Obviously you generally take bombs over mana accelaration, but cube is a completely different format. In cube, at least half of the pack is going to be bomby for one person or another. If I'm taking sol ring I'm basically just making it so I can play my bombs out before my opponents can. Acceleration generally isn't that important, but if a card can give me 4 mana on turn 2 and stay in play I'm sure as hell going to take it.

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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    I don't know whether you'd call them "bombs" or not, but cards like Nekrataal and Control Magic are just better tempo advantage, as well as card advantage, than Sol Ring is, 9 times out of 10.

    So if I see those kinds of cards, I'm taking them.

    But vs. straight up fat or mana intensive draw spells, I'll take Sol Ring.
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by munkie View Post
    I have won a Limited Grand Prix Trial and Top 8'ed a Limited PTQ. The fuck I don't know the right way to evaluate limited play. I don't normally brag of my accomplishments, but considering the relative few number of times I had to try to do so, I think I have earned my right to say I know what the fuck I'm doing. And what real Limited experience do you have, Jack Elgin? What real Limited success do you have to back up your opinion other than just saying, "I'm right and you're wrong?"
    Holyshitholyshitholyshitthat'ssohardcore.

    Does Top 8'ing at a PTQ qualify as success? I confess that my tiebreakers sucked at the only limited PTQ I ever played at, so I did not in fact Top 8. They give you a pin for that, right?

    As long as we're being jerkasses, I'm going to point out that if you want to use an appeal to authority, maybe you should have real accomplishments.

    @Juju:

    I'm honestly going to compare Sol Ring and Llanowar Elves. Sol Ring obviously produces more mana, but it's not colored mana. It can't carry a Jitte and it doesn't draw two cards off of Skullclamp. It doesn't make Edict shittier and it doesn't chump block.

    I suppose Sol Ring is better if you're not in green.

    No, seriously, Sol Ring over Skullclamp? That's terrible. That's absolutely, unquestionably the wrong call. All I can imagine is that you're taking the advice of the so called experts on Cubing way more seriously than your own game experiences. It is really fucking hard to lose a game with active Skullclamp. The same cannot be said of Sol Ring. If the two go head to head it's really difficult to imagine the Sol Ring player winning: I can chumpblock to eternity, and I'm going to be drawing all my answers and better bombs while you fizzle out into drawing duds.
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujuhawk View Post
    1. Card advantage is one of the most important things. You saying that you didn't value off-color bouncelands highly is just a red flag that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Those lands are 2 for 1's. That's it. If I can get to high mana before you I have a better chance, and that's what karoos did.
    I see bad players do this a lot, so I'm going to enlighten you;

    The actual theory of card advantage, as originally stated, is that the player who draws the most cards tends to win- as long as those cards do something useful.

    Card advantage only matters if it does something useful. A card that produces two colorless mana is not extremely useful in most cases, which is why Ancient Tomb isn't regarded as a first pick. Sol Ring is obviously a bit better than Ancient Tomb (mostly) but the main difference is that Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and thus has a sparkly, shiny allure to it.

    Ancient Tomb is not card advantage, anyway. Karoo lands and Sol Ring are not card advantage. They are potentially mana advantage, but they don't actually produce card advantage. All they can approximate to is producing the card advantage scenario where your original and extra cards are both land. And, hey, psssst, Land Tax sucks in Limited too.

    It's probably better than Sol Ring though, since it can fix your colors.

    Also, like basically all limited specialists disagree with you on that if that means anything.
    On what, off color karoo lands in Ravnica block limited? Do go on. I suppose it's possible, since Ravnica block did have a higher curve to it. I doubt you're going to find anyone that recommends first picking off color karoos, though. "Highly" is a subjective term.

    2. If you're taking terramorphic expanse over sol ring then you are actually completely braindead. These two cards aren't even close in power level.
    I agree. Terramorphic Expanse lets me pick up more good cards and use them reliably, and is thus far more powerful than Sol Ring.

    3. Obviously you generally take bombs over mana accelaration, but cube is a completely different format. In cube, at least half of the pack is going to be bomby for one person or another. If I'm taking sol ring I'm basically just making it so I can play my bombs out before my opponents can. Acceleration generally isn't that important, but if a card can give me 4 mana on turn 2 and stay in play I'm sure as hell going to take it.
    Even if your Cube list is nothing but bombs- and most lists run a lot of 1-for-1s and small utility and weenie creatures- some of those bombs will be better quality than others. When those cards go head to head, the player with the most bomby threats and answers will win. The player who first picks powerful card advantage threats and answers will be that player. The player who picked Sol Ring over Meloku or Damnation or Cursed Scroll or Loxodon Warhammer or any other card that's much much better than Sol Ring won't realize that Sol Ring is what cost them that match, but that's exactly what it will be.

    Honestly, though?

    Enough. You're too incompetent to argue with any further. You're clearly incapable of forming any kind of argument of your own, instead relying on ridiculously vague and tenuous appeals to unreal authority and arguments amounting to "Wow, just wow".

    Do you have a single thought ricocheting through those last, brave few synapses that you're actually capable of expressing? The kid gloves are about to come off. Say something of value or get the fuck out.
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  14. #54

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    As long as we're being jerkasses, I'm going to point out that if you want to use an appeal to authority, maybe you should have real accomplishments.
    I think "real" can just be better than yours. :\

    @Juju:

    I'm honestly going to compare Sol Ring and Llanowar Elves. Sol Ring obviously produces more mana, but it's not colored mana. It can't carry a Jitte and it doesn't draw two cards off of Skullclamp. It doesn't make Edict shittier and it doesn't chump block.
    Llanowar elves can't power out turn 2 elspeth/garruk, or turn 2 baloth, or turn 2 WHATEVER, and continue it with a turn 3 5 drop, etc.

    I suppose Sol Ring is better if you're not in green.
    No, it's always better.

    No, seriously, Sol Ring over Skullclamp? That's terrible. That's absolutely, unquestionably the wrong call. All I can imagine is that you're taking the advice of the so called experts on Cubing way more seriously than your own game experiences. It is really fucking hard to lose a game with active Skullclamp. The same cannot be said of Sol Ring. If the two go head to head it's really difficult to imagine the Sol Ring player winning: I can chumpblock to eternity, and I'm going to be drawing all my answers and better bombs while you fizzle out into drawing duds.
    Skullclamp is also slow, and if you're playing it in a deck with bombs and answers then you're probably a control deck where clamp is not as good, and if you're an aggro deck then you only have one gameplan. My things are going to be bigger then yours and my game is going to be 2 turns ahead of yours giving you less time to play stuff an hookup immediately.

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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Llanowar Elves is far more likely to power out anything that has double green in it's casting cost over Sol Ring.

    Skullclamp is slow? Kid, I don't know what your Cube list looks like. Are there removal spells? Life gain? Cards that cost more than three mana? Cards with heavy color requirements? If the answer to any of the above is "yes", I have no idea why you think Cube games go by so quickly. They don't. It's still a limited format. And yes, I've seen the turn 1 Sol Ring and been thoroughly impressed. Fuck, I've played the turn 1 Sol Ring because I briefly listened to the advice of the idiots that consider themselves Cube Drafting authorities and realized, too late, that it was so much worse than the good cards I passed up for it.

    In every Limited deck Skullclamp is better than Sol Ring. Every single one. It neuters every removal spell the opponent plays.

    And if you're actually drafting up nothing but expensive-ass bombs in the hopes of racing with Sol Ring, you're even worse than I thought. You need early game plays regardless. It's just that generally you want them to do something on their own and not suck completely if they're not in your opening grip.
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  16. #56

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Llanowar Elves is far more likely to power out anything that has double green in it's casting cost over Sol Ring.
    If you're playing llanowar elves you're most likely heavy green anyway, so this is irrelevant. And if you're not heavy green, then your deck is terrible and you have no chance and sol ring is infinitely better, not close.

    Skullclamp is slow? Kid, I don't know what your Cube list looks like. Are there removal spells? Life gain? Cards that cost more than three mana? Cards with heavy color requirements? If the answer to any of the above is "yes", I have no idea why you think Cube games go by so quickly. They don't. It's still a limited format. And yes, I've seen the turn 1 Sol Ring and been thoroughly impressed. Fuck, I've played the turn 1 Sol Ring because I briefly listened to the advice of the idiots that consider themselves Cube Drafting authorities and realized, too late, that it was so much worse than the good cards I passed up for it.
    Obviously there is removal and expensive spells. THERE ARE ALSO CARDS LIKE SAVANNAH LIONS THAT ATTACK THE OPPONENT ON TURN 2. Maybe your cube is just all control decks with aggro having no chance?

    And if you're actually drafting up nothing but expensive-ass bombs in the hopes of racing with Sol Ring, you're even worse than I thought. You need early game plays regardless. It's just that generally you want them to do something on their own and not suck completely if they're not in your opening grip.
    That's obviously not the strategy, that's terrible. However, hands with sol ring are going to be a lot faster than hands without sol ring. If I'm drafting the expensive ass bomb deck I also have early game removal and accel like KReach to go with it, and sol ring basically just makes it so my bombs come online 2 turns faster, and then my card quality is going to be better than your card quantity.

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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujuhawk View Post
    If you're playing llanowar elves you're most likely heavy green anyway, so this is irrelevant. And if you're not heavy green, then your deck is terrible and you have no chance and sol ring is infinitely better, not close.
    That's a nice meaningless statement. Answer the question please; Blastoderm or Llanowar Elf?

    Obviously there is removal and expensive spells. THERE ARE ALSO CARDS LIKE SAVANNAH LIONS THAT ATTACK THE OPPONENT ON TURN 2. Maybe your cube is just all control decks with aggro having no chance?
    Most of the Cube lists I've seen are singleton. Even if your opponent picks up a fast decks- and it's really hard to actually pick up a deck that even goldfishes as fast as turn five- they're going to run into removal and other creatures.

    I should point out that I'm all for picking up early play creatures and utility. I just pick up cards that will do something later on. Most limited games grind out to topdeck mode. Decks that do better in topdeck mode tend to win, which is why counters are rarely good and discard is almost universally terrible in this format. I don't play Hymn to Tourach and I sure as fuck don't play Sol Ring.

    That's obviously not the strategy, that's terrible. However, hands with sol ring are going to be a lot faster than hands without sol ring. If I'm drafting the expensive ass bomb deck I also have early game removal and accel like KReach to go with it, and sol ring basically just makes it so my bombs come online 2 turns faster, and then my card quality is going to be better than your card quantity.
    How does that make your card quality any better? It doesn't. And threats usually cost more, if they're powerful, than the answers to them. I only need 3-4 mana to deal with your 5-6 mana threats most of the time; at worst you're going to lose out at this race, if you're running Sol Ring as a spell slot. If you're running it as a mana slot, you're just fucking up your mana fixing for a pick you passed real threats and answers for.

    Honestly, though, I can tell you why Sol Ring is terrible, but you're still free to first pick it all day. It's not going to do you any good, but hey, some people still think Extirpate is pretty keen.
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  18. #58

    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    That's a nice meaningless statement. Answer the question please; Blastoderm or Llanowar Elf?
    Blastoderm, but that's irrelevant, llanowar elves isn't even close to sol ring so it's a terrible comparison.

    I'm basically going to ignore everything else because it seems as though you do not value getting 2 turns as head as highly as I do, and basically this is just going in circles, plus from what it sounds our cubes are very different. In the cube I use aggro is very good and a red deck can turn 5 easily.

  19. #59
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    You are missing the fact that Sol Ring can power out Spiritmonger 2 turns earlier. Wtf is that nonsense. GG.
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    Re: Binghamton report - Scrubfest2k9

    Blastoderm isn't even close to most first picks in this format, so I think it's quite relevant. We're examining the principle. And there doesn't seem to be one. People first pick Sol Ring because they've been told to first pick Sol Ring. If you think Sol Ring even approaches the level of actual, meaningful tempo and card advantage you get from a card like Nevinyrals' Disk, or Cursed Scroll, or Umezawa's Jitte, then you're deluding yourself. Would it be nice to go turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 something like Ravenous Baloth, turn 3 Jitte and Equip? Sure. All things considered, though, I'll pick up the Jitte and then the Baloth and then I'll worry about maybe getting an optimal play where it comes down faster somewhere down the road where I've already secured the basic elements I need to win. I'd run all Moxen over basic land if it was an option in most decks, but running better basics doesn't take priority over having good spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    You are missing the fact that Sol Ring can power out Spiritmonger 2 turns earlier. Wtf is that nonsense. GG.
    Not if you passed up Spiritmonger to pick Sol Ring it can't. What, you think that shit's going to wheel?
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