June 20th B/R Update Any Guesses

[kicks_422]

As most have said, I too think nothing needs to be banned. Banning one of the usual suspects (Goyf, Counterbalance and/or Top, and LED) would make the other cards in the list just look stronger.

For example, banning Top (and thereby nerfing Counterbalance), would make Storm combo such a huge force. I think that with the evolution that Storm combo has gone through, "simple" countermagic just won't consistently be able to stop the barrage of spells.

[mercenarybdu]

There won't be any changes. But if there was a change, then we could expect some interesting results at future events.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Things I would do if I was a moderator:
Drop the (24-hour or 48-hour) Banhammer on everyone that calls for the banning of Goyf, Top, or Counterbalace, or the unbanning of Land Tax. Then I'd lock this thread.

We get it. Nothing has changed since last time this argument was made. I bet there are several hundred pages of the Goyf, Counterbalance, and Top argument just on these boards. Please, please, please, could June 20th come with no discussion about those cards?

Now, some of the other cards on the Banned List, those could be interesting. But not the obvious ones. Discuss the unbanning of cards like Entomb, a card that might push some archetypes a bit too far, and will actually see play. That was an interesting discussion. Land Tax? Boring.

Ah, but if we had your way we'd have a dictatorship of fear, where everyone was too afraid of discussing bannings to broach any topics you'd consider "interesting". This is the price you pay when you casually trod on free speech; you wind up with a lot of useless, fluffy crap.

Anyway.

I was thinking about the whole Top/Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Goyf thing and I actually came to a conclusion;

Almost none of these cards would present anything like a problem if they just banned fetchlands.

I'm not really sure Fetchlands ever should have been printed. They de facto obsolete every other multicolor land except for five color lands in combo and the dual lands they get. They can get any color dual land while still also being able to grab basics to make you resilient against non-basic hate. They're all that make silly four color decks splashing white for StP or green for Tarmogoyf possible.

Then again, at the end of the day, I'm not sure I want them to do that either. But it would certainly be the most interesting thing they could do.

[spirit of the wretch]

Ban:
Top
LED

Unban:
Mind Twist
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon

Mind Twist: Early game it's a worse Hymn, late game discard is pretty useless
Dream Halls: Too clunky to be a broken combo enabler. Inferior to Ad Nauseam.
Illusionary Mask: Without the Errata on Dreadnought, I don't see why this should be banned.
Land Tax: Ok, let's not get into this again.
Worldgorger Dragon: Combo is inferior to Cephalid Breakfast which is inferior to PainterStone.

To kick off some debate: Does anybody think any of the aforementioned candidates for unbanning is actually broken in this format?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I thought about it, and banning fetchlands is dumb. Forget that idea. It would be the simplest way to throw a huge disruption into the metagame, but while I'm not sure they should have been printed in the first place, such a disruption is ultimately unfair to the Eternal player who collects at a slower pace than Standard or Extended and wants some stability. Banning Goyf I think would be much less noticeable. It would make Wrath/Damnation really good again as Zoo and Tribal become the best creature strategies.

And no, spirit, I think those are all fine to unban. I would throw in Entomb. Although never, ever, ever Bazaar.

I personally would rather they ban Brainstorm than Top. Blue is already hogging all the card draw; cutting off quality card selection to non-blue decks seems like it would only reinforce the dominance of Blue in Legacy.

[4eak]

These threads are fun.

Probably nothing will happen. If something does, I have no guesses.

I have no problem with heavy bannings or massive upheaval in a format. Fast paced and truly-wide open metagame evolution rocks. Our playgroup routinely adds peculiar rules or makes bannings to a format just for a night or two to see and think about what it would look like. People who are attached to their collector items wouldn't appreciate it /shrug, but I'd be happy to play in format whose banlist was based upon card prices and popularity.





peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Banning fetchlands would fuck up entire collections in a broad sense, and it would kill a lot of the appeal of the eternal formats. Especially given that they're now like, what, six-seven years old; older than Survival or Trix or Stompy when I first started playing 1.5.

I wouldn't mind if they had rotating core numbers, though. Like, one year starting hand size was 5 or 9, one year starting life was 15 or 30, one year minimum deck size was 50 or 80, one year the maximum number of copies you could play of each card was 3 or 5. Those kinds of alterations to the basic rules of the game I find interesting. But then, I think that's what this new Planes thing is about.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Nothing relevant will be unbanned. If anything is unbanned, it'll be overplayed for a month, then maybe one or two will find a place in one and only one deck.

[C.P.]

Banning fetchlands would fuck up entire collections in a broad sense, and it would kill a lot of the appeal of the eternal formats. Especially given that they're now like, what, six-seven years old; older than Survival or Trix or Stompy when I first started playing 1.5.

I wouldn't mind if they had rotating core numbers, though. Like, one year starting hand size was 5 or 9, one year starting life was 15 or 30, one year minimum deck size was 50 or 80, one year the maximum number of copies you could play of each card was 3 or 5. Those kinds of alterations to the basic rules of the game I find interesting. But then, I think that's what this new Planes thing is about.

IBA, what did you smoke last night?

Banning the Fetchlands is very interesting thought experiment. I have no idea how the decks even look like, let alone predicting the metagame. One thing for sure though, things like Daze or Brainstorm grant lose its power, making blue weaker. Is it good for the format? No idea.

But changeing the core numbers? What, you think MtG does not have high enough entry barrier already? 20, 7, 60(40), 15. These should not go anywhere. Never.


EDIT: Right, this was B&R discussion. Top looks bit sketch, but I hope it stays. Other parts of Legacy looks fine for now, but some unbannings will be interesting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.

And I already had the thought experiment about fetchlands. I came to the conclusion that losing whole swaths of classic cards isn't what the Eternal formats are about.

[quicksilver]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.

It's called new formats. For example highlander changes the card limit to 1 copy.

[C.P.]

You forgot 4.

I disagree that these should never change. It certainly throws a wrench into things, but having these variables change would make deck design incredibly interesting. It'd also be an interesting way to shift things around without bannings or power creep.

Being very interesting does not answer my concerns about entry barrier. Any magic player who's worth his own salt has feeling about his numbers. You know, by experience, what happens if you run 20, 22, 24 lands in 60 card deck. This applies thoughout entire constructed format, and is one of the things that brings the game together.

Now, take that kid who plays Standard, give him 80 card deck, and tell him to build his deck. Unless this poor chump is a Stats Bastard, this poor chump has no idea what he's doing, feeling he should go back to his old format. To be fair, I've seen 69 or 100 card eternal tourney that ran well, but that is because it is one time thing that looks fun for once. Make this longer and people find it repelling.

You may argue it is like playing limited, and yes, it is like trying to build limited manabase for the first time, and it is hard unless someone yells that magical number 17. I suppose we could do the same thing, but limited does not need additional entry barrier of having to buy Duals and Co. Legacy should do anything it can, as long as it does not take away essence of the format, to keep its entry barrier low.

[Tacosnape]

Format's healthy.

And unbanning Mind Twist is an awful idea.

[JeroenC]

It's called new formats. For example highlander changes the card limit to 1 copy.

This. Messing with entire existing formats just makes new formats. Formats aren't made to change.

[mujadaddy]

unbanning Mind Twist is an awful idea.

Why is that? said the mage.

[C.P.]

Why is that? said the mage.

Wait until your aggro opponent topdecks it and take away your hard earned Card Advantage! said the Control Player that does not play counters.

[emidln]

1) Nerf multicolored blue decks
2) ???
3) Profit

??? = Play TES

The Mind Twist argument isn't because it makes Dark Rit decks good. It's because the problematic decks don't run Dark Rit. They accelerate with permanent mana sources like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond where they are able to very effectively 4-6 for one you on turn 2-3 after casting a lock piece or threat (which may or may not resolve, it doesn't matter because it's just bait with a huge bonus if it resolves). After the early game accel, Mind Twist is the ultimate bomb if pushed through. Not only is it the ultimate bomb, but everything gets to splash it because it's really a blue card in disguise (like everything with only a single color requirement and no tribal requirements).

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

As has been said before, it really doesn't seem like anything needs to be banned. There are many competitive decks in all of the major archetypes, and that's about as healthy a metagame as you can ask for.

Of course, I hope they test that new lotus extensively for the eternal formats; I wouldn't be suprised to see it restricted in Vintage from the word go.

[mujadaddy]

The Mind Twist argument isn't because it makes Dark Rit decks good. It's because the problematic decks don't run Dark Rit. They accelerate with permanent mana sources like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond where they are able to very effectively 4-6 for one you on turn 2-3 after casting a lock piece or threat (which may or may not resolve, it doesn't matter because it's just bait with a huge bonus if it resolves). After the early game accel, Mind Twist is the ultimate bomb if pushed through. Not only is it the ultimate bomb, but everything gets to splash it because it's really a blue card in disguise (like everything with only a single color requirement and no tribal requirements).

I'm not hearing a problem here...

...I suppose the fact that it's a virtual- card is reason enough to keep it banned, but darnit... I miss playing with it. Oh, and Black Vise.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Ban:
Lion's Eye Diamond

Un-ban:
Mind Twist
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask
Time Spiral

I'm not sure you are hearing yourself think. Can you imagine Spring Tide with up to 4x Time Spiral? I think that's a scary thought.

LED is a balanced card. With having to crack it in response before passing priority and tossing your hand, it's fair. Especially since a Chant in response to the tutor after the cracking of 1-2 LED's means tossing your hand and taking mana burn.

I think Counterbalance should be banned over Top. Top is good, but Counterbalance is the problem. Not Top. If there were no CB, Top would not ever be considered a problem, let alone a potential ban-hammer target.

Goyf isn't going to be banned. Evar. Too vanilla, not broken enough. Morphling used to be considered the best creature in the game and that never got banned. And it's blue.

I can't think

Pce,

--DC