Wouldn't it just be more consistent to run Painter's Servant-Grindstone? I understand what everyone is trying to do here, but seriously; it is the most potent game-winning mill engine in Magic's history. I don't know why you'd settle for anything less. Why spend your entire deck trying to mill a few cards when you can take two together (for a very cheap cost) and eliminate everything in one fell swoop?
Why do we innovate? Why do we strive? Try? Experiment?
Partly, this is a pet project, but it is also just developing something bad into something not all that bad. Does PainterStone do it better? Yeah. Without innovation, and playing around with cards, we'd have the same decks at the top til the end of Magic. I see your point in that going to that would be easier and more effective, and from the way you said it, you understand my point of view of the developmental process.
I can see what you're saying, and the Timmy within wants to agree. Unfortunately, decks that rely on milling an opponent's library really don't succeed all that much because that's all they are busy doing. When an opponent does manage to establish a threat, decks like these don't have a whole lot of answers because it takes them so long to accomplish their goal.Originally Posted by sdematt
If you want to try a deck that mills an opponent, why don't you toss Phyrexian Dreadnought in the mix with Vision Charm. Now you have definitely made maximum use out of the Charm by being able to phase out your Dreadnought when it comes into play, or you can mill the top 4 cards of an opponent's library all at the cost of one blue mana at instant speed.
That is actually a really cool idea. I totally forgot that vision charm did that as well.
I do think that propaganda is necessary for this deck, whether or not you play countertop.
Well, here's the thing:
You're playing a "mill-deck", so you must know you're playing a very slow deck in nature. By playing against Goblins and fast aggro, you're asking for trouble. Now, with Dreadnought, you've basically swung the clock 180 degrees by putting a clock on your opponent; the one playing aggro.
Propaganda is good to an extent, but I'd stick it in the board. Your main issue is going to be decks like Goblins, Burn, fast aggro essentially. If you can race them by putting an obstacle in their way, and begin thinning their library, you just might have a chance. This is why people play Painter-Stone, because it is very effective and very fast. Propaganda is an obstacle, and it helps against Ichorid, so you can give it a try. Two in the main wouldn't hurt all that much.
Dreadnought makes this deck a touch better than it was before. But still, you should all focus on maintaining a balanced attack as well as defense. You also might want to consider Grindstone in the board against Painter decks. Simply board that in and drop it when an opponent plays Painter. You have no idea how pissed I was about a year ago when someone did that to me.
But hey, it's effective and it works. Decks with this strategy that win are rare, so no matter how good it gets, it will always be seen as lesser on the totem pole unless you take it to a large tournament and win with it. That's your goal: Aim to win.
I have to admit, I very much enjoyed reading what you had to say. I'm not being sarcastic at all or anything, tbh. You made sense, and I liked what you had to say. You've definitely made me think, deeply even, and that is hard to do. I will most definitely ponder on your thoughts.
Well that's good; good to hear. The important thing to realize is that this archetype isn't very good. If you want to make it better, advertise the cold, hard facts. If you place or win in a tournament, post it in the Top 4/8 forum. Remember: Advertise. That is the best way to make people believers.
Painter+Grindstone=Competitive Mill. 'Nuff said. It really should be in the deck, but then again that brings a lot of baggage.
Thinking on this concept, cascade could push the number of available deck destruction spells a bit. The UB cascade spells are 4 cc (Karthari Remnant) and 5cc (Deny Reality). The closest 3cc options are Ardent Plea and Demonic Dread, either of which would require a splash.To make it work, the deck would have to play a bunch of cards with alternative casting costs, cyclers, and such. Fortunately blue and black have a lot of that available.
Off the cuff, something like this:
[Grinding Spells]
Brain Freeze
Glimpse The Unthinkable
Mind Funeral
Ardent Plea
Kathari Remnant
[Cyclers]
Street Wraith
Glassdust Hulk
Architects of Will
[Control Elements]
Force of Will
Shriekmaw
Unmask
Misdirection
[Fetch/Dual Lands]
...
Might have potential.
If I can get the necessary pieces, I will be able to play in our area's monthly legacy tournament on June 23rd, in which I will be able to post results. The worlds is against me, but I like those odds. I don't know if anyone else plays Counter Strike Source, but it's that feeling of you being the last one alive against 5+ enemies, and you have to keep your wits about you to win. There's alot of ways this deck could go, but I'm glad that I'm getting the response am I. The archetype, is bad, but, with a few tweaks and creative ideas, I think I may be able to get a decent tournament report in 3 weeks' time.
If you really want to go the "I'm gonna burn your library" route, you have to use much for slots for the defense because there are not enough effecient mill spells so far.
Here is what I would play, it is slow but it's strong I think:
Creatures/Planeswalker
4 Wall of Denial
4 Jace Beleren
Spells
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mind Funeral
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 The Abyss
4 Thoughtseize
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Innocent Blood
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Duress
Lands
22 Lands
Probably worth the necro for the new free mill card:
Archive Trap 3uu
Instant - Trap Rare
If an opponent searched his or her library this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Archive Trap's mana cost.
Target opponent puts the top thirteen cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Illus. Jason Felix #41/249
This deck may have just reached the critical mass of mill spells to be a fringe contender.
Run Leyline Void/Helm of Obedience on top of this. Solves problem with that, and gives alt win cond. I think 4 Damnation is needed over shakles, gilded drakes, etc.
Literally, I think that would make the deck work.. I've run combo in MBC, it works (although inconsistent at times), but combined with your other mill would make the deck something more to be feared.
I think adding too much counter, disruption, etc. just slows the kill down, the way I only really see this deck working is just flat out racing your opponent with possibly 1-2 well timed sweeps. Anyways, I suggest helm/void combo it's gg, no painter, but it fits color scheme and also mills on its own when you're in bind.
@Trap
Good SB.
That Archive Trap could work with Noble Benefactor, yeah!
It looks ok but highly situational. Obviously its nice with the fetchlands but if the deck ever becomes a contender then people will be mindful of it. Besides, think about how many mill spells you need to realistically cast before you win. I think at this point you would probably need around 4-5 which is alot. I'm not sure if its helpful but when I think of mill spells I think of them as burn spells where my opponent loses one life every turn but my opponents life total is 2.5 times bigger so that means you divide the amount you mill by 2.5 . I find it to be a useful gauge to estimate how effective your mill spells are. In this case, glimse would be dealing 4 damage for 2 mana. Thats good and definately an auto include but not really game breaking and really its the best spell you have. Thats mostly why mill is not going to be competitive until you see a few more cards like glimpse.
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
Regarding the situational argument about the new "1/4th of your library" mill spell, it might as well not be because every deck in the DTB uses extensive fetches, and now that there are enemy fetches, deck will have the potential to run an extra one or two searchers. It's situational in the same way that Hymn to Tourach is situational because your opponent has to have cards in their hand for it to be good. A.K.A., it is essentially not situational.
@Black Lotus, your argument is that people will be aware of the spell if the deck becomes competitive, but you also argue that it would take additional cards like Glimpse to make it competitive. So essentially, this card will be under the radar until you cast it the first time. Where it seems like you think the card's narrowness makes it disadvantageous, I think you are actually in pretty good shape casting it, especially given that you can cast this card for 0 and Twincast it simultaneously on turn 2 for about half your opponent's library. The other thing is that you can't play around this card with many decks like Zoo and CounterTop-Goyf that are reliant upon fetching at least once during the first 3 turns to set up their mana base.
I've had a fair amount of success playing mill in Extended recently. My list includes Sanity Griding, which you would probably shave for a Legacy list, Glimpse, Twincast (insane with Archive Trap), and Mind Funeral (better in Legacy than Extended). Glimpse and Mind Funeral both fit easily into the mana requirements of a Legacy mill.
"Stifle your Standstill?"
Haunting echos is in the primer, but telemin performance doesn't get a mention? It insta-wins against combo and control, and mills 60/threats on average, which is about 3-6 against most of the DTBs that run creatures. It also functions as a control element against these decks, as you get either a chump blocker, essentially a time walk for you, or a tarmogoyf, which holds off their goyf indefinitely. IMO at least worth consideration for the SB.
So with the release of Zendikar we have a new mill spell, Archive Trap and more fetches, which archive trap loves to use. I am running UB and I have seen some white which does give you some advantages, Wall of Denial, Medaling mage, Path to exile to fuel archive trap. But I have never been a big fan of three colors in a deck where you are hard casting most of your spells. SO this is a new deck I have been toying with and doing well in the limited meta-game I see.
//Land//
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
//Creatures//
4 Hedron Crab
//Utility Spells//
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
//Control//
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
//Mill//
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
4 Sadistic Sacrament
//SB//
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
SB is weak, but I have the Thoughseize in there for goblins and the such. I don't main deck it because the 2 damage can be counterproductive due to the damage from Fetches and Watery Graves if you have have it come into play untapped and having to survive with only hedrons as protection.
Tormod's Crypt is for graveyard abuse, some like Relic of Pro better, but with the amount of mill in this, eating the whole GY is better in my opinion, especially for no mana.
So for the rest, from top to bottom:
Watery Grave/ Underground Sea - Fetchable on-color duals, what more can you ask for.
Misty/Delta/Tarn - Fetches that let you hunt for most of what you need, feed hedron, love it.
Hedron Crab- Great mill any time, all the fetches feed it nicely and its an 0/2 for 1 so you have a mildly decent defender.
Brainstorm- Its legacy, its blue, its dig. Also a good last ditch for counterbalance.
Duress- Eats a counter or something more devastating, and no life cost, already talked about sideboard.
Dark Ritual- Great for fueling Sadistic Sacrament early game, this is one of the weaker choices, but I feel still worth it.
CounterTop- lost of 1cc, a little 2cc, some 3cc, countertop is amazing lock.
Glimpse- Most efficient mill in the game, one of my favorite cards ever.
Mind Funeral- Amazing mill, has its weaknesses, with the prevalence of fetch and land hunt, people end up helping you.
Archive trap- Anti-tutor, early mill if people fetch first turn and you have it. Opening hand with 2 and they fetch can kill alot of decks.
Sadistic Sacrament- Eats combo something fierce, can first turn with a good hand.
Like I said, Side Board needs work, but I have been pretty lucky with this deck. But thats my 10 cents.
Have you tested extirpate maindeck?
What is your clock? You can't take creatures off the board. Your combo matchup seems decent. You have just about as many mills spells as control or aggro control has counters. I think you need to be more mill focused. Dark Ritual and CB seems really out of place. It might be a nice SB strategy but MD it seems bad. In my testing with mill the decks I beat were when I played it like burn: win turn 4/5 before aggro kills you. You can fuck with ANT via Archive trap on their Top rearrangements, or mystical tutors, but you give them threshold for cabal ritual which is pretty significant.So with the release of Zendikar we have a new mill spell, Archive Trap and more fetches, which archive trap loves to use. I am running UB and I have seen some white which does give you some advantages, Wall of Denial, Medaling mage, Path to exile to fuel archive trap. But I have never been a big fan of three colors in a deck where you are hard casting most of your spells. SO this is a new deck I have been toying with and doing well in the limited meta-game I see.
//Land//
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
//Creatures//
4 Hedron Crab
//Utility Spells//
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
//Control//
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
//Mill//
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
4 Sadistic Sacrament
//SB//
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
SB is weak, but I have the Thoughseize in there for goblins and the such. I don't main deck it because the 2 damage can be counterproductive due to the damage from Fetches and Watery Graves if you have have it come into play untapped and having to survive with only hedrons as protection.
Tormod's Crypt is for graveyard abuse, some like Relic of Pro better, but with the amount of mill in this, eating the whole GY is better in my opinion, especially for no mana.
So for the rest, from top to bottom:
Watery Grave/ Underground Sea - Fetchable on-color duals, what more can you ask for.
Misty/Delta/Tarn - Fetches that let you hunt for most of what you need, feed hedron, love it.
Hedron Crab- Great mill any time, all the fetches feed it nicely and its an 0/2 for 1 so you have a mildly decent defender.
Brainstorm- Its legacy, its blue, its dig. Also a good last ditch for counterbalance.
Duress- Eats a counter or something more devastating, and no life cost, already talked about sideboard.
Dark Ritual- Great for fueling Sadistic Sacrament early game, this is one of the weaker choices, but I feel still worth it.
CounterTop- lost of 1cc, a little 2cc, some 3cc, countertop is amazing lock.
Glimpse- Most efficient mill in the game, one of my favorite cards ever.
Mind Funeral- Amazing mill, has its weaknesses, with the prevalence of fetch and land hunt, people end up helping you.
Archive trap- Anti-tutor, early mill if people fetch first turn and you have it. Opening hand with 2 and they fetch can kill alot of decks.
Sadistic Sacrament- Eats combo something fierce, can first turn with a good hand.
Like I said, Side Board needs work, but I have been pretty lucky with this deck. But thats my 10 cents.
I have. It was tight as shit. 4 of for sure. I gets better if you throw in a little discard too (especially in game 2 against combo).Have you tested extirpate maindeck?
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