View Poll Results: Would the format be better without Tendrils of Agony?

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Thread: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

  1. #81
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    K.

    Honestly, I think the conversation's pretty much run aground anyway. I do think the other type of combo is healther for the format, but there are other problem cards generally (Goyf, CB, possibly Brainstorm or Force) and in combo (Ad Nauseum).

    The prolification of fast mana, which was almost entirely absent from 1.5 except for Mishra's Workshop, Dark Ritual, and Elvish Spirit Guide, is another good point. Certainly the absence of those cards had an impact on the metagame. I remember the original Solidarity thread having a big argument about whether or not Force of Will should even be included in the deck, which I think featured myself, Gearhart and both Hatfields in the opposition iirc.
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  2. #82

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    There's a simpler explanation.

    That works too. XD

  3. #83

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Why should this be the only way to play Legacy?
    There are other formats.

    I'd imagine that Vintage is FAR faster if speedy games is your sort of thing. I don't think that it's in the spirit of the Legacy format to have 4 turn or shorter games though. Aren't many of the banning of cards done so that the format slows down?

  4. #84

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Why should this be the only way to play magic?
    Never said it was, only that the reason for slower games was to allow more interactions with a greater variety of card types. It sort of goes against the grain of the format to be able to play the larger bulk of the cards in MtG when a deck can completely ignore entire permanent types.

  5. #85
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Thinking about this more, I think this is stupid. Sure, combo is degenerate at times and unfun to play against, but some people do like to play it and against it. If it were showing up more and placing more in the top 8 it probably should be discussed, but as it stands now, 1 Storm Deck (happy Jack? :)) in the top 8 is nothing. Combo isn't causing blues dominance, blue being blue is causing blues dominance.

    Taking a part out of Legacy like Storm is a horrible idea. It does cause interactions, it does cause thinking, and it isn't killing the format. Knowing when to counter a spell or to mull into disruption is one of the many things to think about and it just adds to the complexity and depth of the format.

    Normal combo decks do exist. Breakfast (for a while it was played quite a bit and I still see it from time to time), Painters/Grindstone, Belcher, etc.

    The only reason for Tendrils to get the axe would be if something was taken from blue to cause Tendrils decks to just explode and dominate. Right now that isn't happening, so what's the problem?

  6. #86
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    banning tendrils would make me adjust my SB plans a little bit. I would then FoW your exalted angel (cool you can play AS now, grats!) and swing for 4 w/ 'goyf turn 3. I fail to see how banning good combo cards would make people play shitty combo cards and cause me put down my islands. I am so down for Snuffing out Metal Workers with lightning greaves equip on the stack though. That's like dodging a bullet.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Why are we discussing individual games against Tendrils? Few people like to actually face Tendrils, and that is in part why we are forced to metagame against it. The question is: do you like the outcome of the general metagame which has adapted to the possibility to playing against Tendrils combo?

    If Tendrils disappeared, then dedicated board control decks, aggro, and Ichorid would increase in strength.

    Ichorid would be the combo deck of choice. You would move from a general metagame based on Thresh, in part because the deck can effectively interact with storm combo and win before the tendrils player could recover, to a format less based on thresh, because blue/green-based aggro-control does not effectively interact with Ichorid or (to some extent) dedicated board control.

    Would you rather have the top deck answering Ichorid or Storm? Tendrils is one of the larger barriers to Ichorid's tier 1 status. A format answering Ichorid would be very different, and I would argue a lot less interactive.

    I don't care if its not fun to play against Tendrils, I think the format as a whole is more fun to play against because Tendrils is in the mix. Tendrils promotes a blue-based and interactive metagame, firmly setting into place thresh's domination. Tendrils is Thresh's best friend: Storm Combo keeps in check a ton of decks that wipe the floor with Thresh. I'm not saying blue-based control would disappear, but its presence would certainly decrease.

    Mind you, I would prefer we could ban lots of cards with a heavy hand to keep the format interesting, but since that isn't going to happen, then I see no choice but to base the format on a top deck which has no dedicated, focused role to open a lot of doors for diversity. While I don't prefer playing Thresh myself or playing against Tendrils, I'll accept a format heavily based on thresh, and so I accept Tendrils.




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  8. #88
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    leave it alone since it aint that much of a problem.

  9. #89

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    I don't know about any of the other combo players out there, but I enjoy playing storm. If tendrils was banned I would not pick up something like ichorid...it just seems too gay and doesn't fit my play style.

  10. #90
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    I think Aaron Forsythe put it the best when he was talking in an article saying they regretted reprinting Dragonstorm in Time Spiral:

    Personally, I blame the storm mechanic. Nothing good ever came of that abomination.
    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/af176
    The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.

  11. #91
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Tendrils makes the format more interesting. Same with Goyf, FoW and Brainstorm. It makes you think of how to win if you opponent is using those cards. Same goes for MWC. The format will become less interesting if there are less good cards being played.
    If they ban Tendrils then they should ban Grindstone too. And Goyf and FoW and Brainstorm and everything else that is good and we can play T2 with duals and fetches as long as no one has a problem with them and if they do, ban them too.

  12. #92

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    I'd imagine that Vintage is FAR faster if speedy games is your sort of thing. I don't think that it's in the spirit of the Legacy format to have 4 turn or shorter games though. Aren't many of the banning of cards done so that the format slows down?
    Yes it is in its nature. Due to it being eternal, fast kinds of combo are viable. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, but go play Extended.

  13. #93
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    The thing is, if you ban Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot, and Brain Freeze, and even if you ban Dragonstorm, the other combo deck's aren't going to magically fill in the slack.


    CRET Belcher, for example, is terribly vulnerable to countermagic and black hand disruption. Banning Tendrils doesn't create a void for it; Thresh is still one of the best decks, and CRETBelcher still loses horribly to Thresh. So instead of CRET Belcher filling in Tendril's metagame hold, Combo gets pushed out.

    I think Cephalid Breakfast and EPIC Painter are awesome; but I don't think it's storm combo that push them out of the top tier. Banning Tendrils doesn't make them Tier One decks; it may make them the best combo decks available, but that doesn't make them any more playable than they are now.

    Thresh is in an interesting place on the Rock-Paper-Scissiors spectrum. In addition to beating Combo, it is in a great position to beat other aggro-control (like Merfolk), and a decent position to beat aggro (like Goblins). Banning Tendrils doesn't suddenly remove a corner of the Rock-Paper-Scissors triangle, making Thresh a bad choice. Instead, it makes board control and aggro better, and Thesh slightly worse. It doesn't make Thresh a bad choice, however. Even without Tendrils, Thresh would probably be a deck to beat.

    How much of the current metagame is Tendrils Combo? Thresh isn't the DTB solely because it beats Tendrils Combo. Instead, in addition to beating a lot of decks, and having even-ish mathcups against many other decks, Thesh also beats Combo. Decks like Survival and Aggro Loam may have similar matchups against the rest of the field as Thresh, but they lose to Combo, making Thresh a better deck to run in a good sized event.

    Banning Tendrils doesn't really change this. It may make decks like Survival and Aggro Loam better, but it doesn't knock Thesh down a ton.
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  14. #94
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    I'm glad so many people enjoy playing against Storm but it severely warps the format to a point where Aggro is just a worse choice than Control or Combo. Even though it only makes up for a small percentage of the metagame, you just have to be plain lucky to dodge the combo decks during a tournament to stand a chance with aggro. I mean if a tournament is 6 rounds and you get paired against Tendrills decks twice, you are toast. So basically the choice for anyone planning on winning the tournament is to take control or combo. This refutes the statement that combo is an insignificant portion of the metagame as even that small portion is very relevant.

    Banning Tendrills would leave TES and ANT still viable, but much more managable for aggro decks. I then expect the aggressive strategy to pick up more players and control decks will have to adjust, what we end up with is a much more healthy format where you can actually pick up any of the 3 traditional strategies and expect to have a reasonable shot at winning a tournament.

    With this all out of the way, I have to add that I do understand the results of the poll thusfar. Most people have already adjusted their deckchoice to the presence of combo and are thus unaffected. The fact that you yourself can beat Tendrills doesn't mean it's presence is bad for the format.

  15. #95
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jak
    Combo isn't causing blues dominance, blue being blue is causing blues dominance.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cramp
    banning tendrils would make me adjust my SB plans a little bit.
    QFT

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireheart
    Do you see it? Anyone? Why do you think people play blue? Oh, that's right: it can compete with aggro and prey on combo. I can guarantee you that if Wizards banned Force of Will and Stifle from Legacy, storm combo would be swamping T8 constantly.
    People play blue for actually some more reasons. It offers consistency, a thing that no other color can guarantee to such an extent. Another important thing is carddraw, or why do you think do people play cards like Standstill? Also I don't think the main purpose of countermagic is to fight combo, it's a natural element of a control deck that's not just plain board control like MWC. Control needs to keep the board clean if they don't have a huge reset button. I believe aggro control's strategy isn't to fight combo, it's to control the early game and win fast with a huge cheap threat (aka Tarmogoyf) Thresh (or whatever you will call it) is not the best deck in the format because it beats combo, but because it has an even to positive matchup against most other decks in the field.

  16. #96
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    @ AngryTroll

    Your post has a lot of content which replies to mine (I don't know if that's on purpose or not), so I'm going to respond.

    The thing is, if you ban Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot, and Brain Freeze, and even if you ban Dragonstorm, the other combo deck's aren't going to magically fill in the slack.
    Some combo deck will try to fill in the gaps to prey upon decks with a weakness to combo. Ichorid would fill in the gap. Ichorid teeters on DTB/W status like Tendrils. These decks are in competition with each other. Tendrils beats Ichorid, but Ichorid beats a ton of decks to which Tendrils loses. I think Ichorid becomes more viable from a Tendrils ban, in part because it doesn't have to worry about getting raced by Tendrils, and also because I think a lot of storm combo players would eventually migrate to Ichorid.

    That would be bad for blue.

    Thresh isn't the DTB solely because it beats Tendrils Combo.
    That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying Tendrils plays a defensive role for Thresh in the general metagame against decks which arguably have an advantage over Thresh. Tendrils preys upon the decks which would hypothetically prey upon Thresh.

    Thresh does have weaknesses (not many and not big ones), and it could be countered more effectively were it not for the existence of storm combo. As I said, Ichorid and properly made dedicated board control decks have a serious advantage over Threshold. Without Tendrils, blue-based aggro control would have 2 real enemies on the scene.

    Instead, in addition to beating a lot of decks, and having even-ish mathcups against many other decks, Thesh also beats Combo.
    This is part of my argument for why Thresh should continue to be the cornerstone of the format, and eventually one of the reasons I end up supporting Tendrils. I appreciate how Thresh just maintains good odds against most decks and isn't so overpowered that I can't find any specific tournament metagames where Thresh isn't necessarily the best deck. Thresh's cornerstone status isn't so dominant that it is unbeatable (which I like), but its ubiquity and status certainly forces interaction in the format, which preserves diversity and good metagaming.

    Perhaps we disagree, I think without Tendrils, Thresh would obviously remain a good deck, but not the foundation to Legacy like it is now.

    Thresh would not have positive matches against such a large portion of the field if Tendrils were banned. It would still have good odds against lots of decks, but the natural predators of blue-based aggro control would come out of the woodwork. The metagame would definitely shift and likely lose diversity as Thresh would lose some of its metagame-regulating powers.

    Sure, some decks would become better because of Tendrils bannage (adding to the diversity of the metagame), but it would eventually lead to an overall loss in diversity as emerging dedicated-role decks would create a stronger rock/paper/scissors tripod with fewer decks in between.







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  17. #97
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis View Post
    Storm severely warps the format to a point where Aggro is just a worse choice than Control or Combo. Even though it only makes up for a small percentage of the metagame, you just have to be plain lucky to dodge the combo decks during a tournament to stand a chance with aggro.
    This is misleading. Le'ts take the storm combo player approach in your words:
    Counterbalance severely warps the format to a point where Combo is just a worse choice than Control or Aggro. It makes up for a huge percentage of the metagame, you just have to be plain lucky to dodge the counterbalance decks during a tournament to stand a chance with storm combo.

    Every deck has bad matchups. As a combo player, I got aggro-control decks and blue based disruption, especially counterbalance. As an aggro player you have combo. Seems fair. Well, not so fair because of numbers: I usually have to play AT LEAST 2-3 counterbalance decks in a 7 round tournament, while you'll statistically hit just one storm combo deck.

    If you really want to push back blue, just ban Brainstorm (and maybe Ponder). This will slow down storm combo decks too, or at least make them lose consistence.
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  18. #98
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    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Good point. I think the real problem here is that we all have different ideas about what a healthy format looks like. Byrant already addressed this point, but I hope we can agree that a little less Counterbalance/Top would be good for the format. Personally I believe a cascade effect will happen if we ban Tendrills. Combo gets weaker, Aggro decks and Board control decks will get stronger, Counterbalance decks get weaker and we end up with a format where blue isn't the only viable color in Legacy. You correctly identified the problem being the dominance of blue, and I firmly believe that by banning Tendrills we will stop this dominance.

    Banning Brainstorm is a bad idea, as this card alone is basically the reason so many people made the switch from Vintage to Legacy. This card alone is the driving factor behind this format and allowing the people that like to play complex decks to remain enthausiastic. Also, if we weaken CB/Top, Combo is going to become a much bigger problem than it is now.

    EDIT: I am basically saying the same thing as 4aek so I agree with him.

  19. #99

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    I'm absolutely certain CBTop will not decrease if Tendrils is gone. CBTop preys upon the entire format, not just combo.

  20. #100

    Re: Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis View Post
    I'm glad so many people enjoy playing against Storm but it severely warps the format to a point where Aggro is just a worse choice than Control or Combo.
    Last time I checked goyf sligh just won a 130+ person event at vestal, ny.

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