[Deck] Mono Green Chalice Aggro

[jazzykat]

Has the venerable Ice Storm been looked at. I know it is generally seen as a crap card but I see it as having a dramatic effect in combination with chalice=1 (making it that much harder to get to 2 mana), 3sphere, and killing manlands.

[B is for Big Job]

That idea in theory could work. It works for black(sink hole/ waste combo) and rarely do I not see sinkhole in a black deck (unless its zombies or if you want to count iccy as a black deck). With the accel of llanowar, esg and AT this could be a strong 2nd turn play and follow up with a trini and maybe a challice at one first turn!

[Michael Keller]

That idea in theory could work. It works for black(sink hole/ waste combo) and rarely do I not see sinkhole in a black deck (unless its zombies or if you want to count iccy as a black deck). With the accel of llanowar, esg and AT this could be a strong 2nd turn play and follow up with a trini and maybe a challice at one first turn!

It's sort of ironic: Last week just before contemplating a finalized version of the deck I was asking people for Ice Storms. I played them for a little while on Workstation (because of the lack of real ones) and they turned out surprisingly well. Again, no one I knew owned them on such short notice but they were impressive of sorts. I can see them as a possible fit.

I really want to avoid using cards like City of Traitors in the deck. I understand Ancient Tomb can deal damage, especially with an active Garruk. But all things considered, I might not even untap the tomb unless I really have to. Again, it's not like I would do that unless I really had to. I was more busy this past tournament making Beast tokens than anything else - and it worked.

To say Jitte and Sword do not work here is not a good evaluation. These cards work wonders and can put your opponent into a corner mid-way (or even earlier, depending on how fast you get them into play) through a match. They were responsible for many of my victories. I would never cut them.

Shusher might be kind of neat. I'm not sure what exactly he'd be necessary for. He might be all right. Not sure, though.

[Kuma]

Wasteland is here to supplement your creatures and put your opponent in a world of trouble in the esrly stages of the match. If they cannot recover soon after you drop a Tarmogoyf or an equipped dude, then they'll find themselves severely backed against the wall.

By the time you can drop and equip a dude, Wasteland will have lost much of its usefulness. You might steal some games with it, but it's probably not going to be nearly disruptive enough. We're not that fast.

As far as Trinisphere in the board goes: No, not for me, anyways. I understand this card's usefulness and I'd be foolish not to play any less than four in a deck solely designed to pin players under a light mana base and make them find answers to your threats very quickly.

If you're not going to run Chrome Mox, Trinisphere won't come down turn one nearly often enough. You could play a River Boa turn one, and a Trinisphere turn two, but it's pretty rare in Legacy for someone to not have three mana by turn three. The Wastelands help, sure, but you're spending a land to take out a land. This is slightly in your favor because you run more land, but it's not like your early creatures are so threatening as to kill your opponent before he can find land number three. You're looking at least turn four before you're going to be able to drop a creature, equip it, and play Trinisphere.

As for pinning players under a light mana base, the average Thresh hand contains two lands and a Brainstorm/Ponder that will on average find them a third land. No decent Thresh player will keep a one land hand against Chalice Aggro unless they have a cantrip and a free counterspell, which means you won't lock them with Chalice/Trinisphere.

Trinisphere punishes decks also playing Daze, which sets an opponent clearly back a turn and more open to hurt from Waste because of the makeshift Time Walk.

Right, but while Daze sets them back a turn, playing Trinisphere takes one of your turns. If you don't have a strong board position, your net gain is minimal.

Don't get me wrong, Wasteland and Trinisphere can be great together, but apart they don't do so much in this deck.

Trinisphere is great against decks running eight or more free spells and combo decks, and poor against pretty much everything else. If your metagame isn't at least half decks like that, it's a sideboard card.

Is it a dead draw later in the game? Perhaps. But assuming you play one early enough, do you think an opponent will let one stick? I drew a second one against T.E.S. and it was enough to seal the game. I'm not saying having more than one is always ideal;

Obviously an early Trinisphere is excellent against almost any deck, but the odds of you being on the play and having three mana plus a Trinisphere are so low that it's not worth the numerous other times where the card is nearly dead.

I'm simply stating there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main and my meta call was correct. I ended up playing against T.E.S., Counter-Top, and Ichorid (x2). Trinisphere was important in every one of those matches.

Of course there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main, and obviously if your meta looks like T.E.S., CounterTop, and Ichorid you should run Trinisphere in the main. Your metagame call was obviously correct for that tournament, but if your typical tournament doesn't look like that, you probably shouldn't be maindecking the card.

You're right, though: Against Merfolk, not so much. But that is the trade-off for a level-up on other decks that this deck can just take a hit for; you have plenty of answers to Merfolk in the deck. Trinisphere just happens to be a card you won't necessarily always want to play against them (even though Choke makes it infinitely better). But to sub out four (moderately negligent) cards when your deck is already tailored to handle blue aggro in general shouldn't make a world of difference. You already have a good match against Merfolk and with Trinisphere your match-ups against other decks (like Ichorid and Thresh variants) improves greatly - even again with the assistance of Wasteland.

You've already got River Boa, equipment, Chalice and Garruk game one for CounterTop. Is storm really so prevalent in your meta?

[Michael Keller]

By the time you can drop and equip a dude, Wasteland will have lost much of its usefulness. You might steal some games with it, but it's probably not going to be nearly disruptive enough. We're not that fast.

Wasteland rarely ever loses its usefulness. Anytime you have the opportunity to destroy an opponent's land and force them to find an answer immediately is never a bad play. Even if your opponent is land-heavy, it still produces a colorless and in the rare instance you don't find yourself using it, it won't matter anyways. If you're in a situation where an opponent has a lot of lands out, then you should too. No worries.

If you're not going to run Chrome Mox, Trinisphere won't come down turn one nearly often enough. You could play a River Boa turn one, and a Trinisphere turn two, but it's pretty rare in Legacy for someone to not have three mana by turn three. The Wastelands help, sure, but you're spending a land to take out a land. This is slightly in your favor because you run more land, but it's not like your early creatures are so threatening as to kill your opponent before he can find land number three. You're looking at least turn four before you're going to be able to drop a creature, equip it, and play Trinisphere.

Trinisphere doesn't have to come down as early as turn one to still be effective. I can still place pressure on an opponent by playing creatures and using the lock components to keep them on their heels. And on turn four, if an opponent sees a Trinisphere hitting the table under the circumstances you mention, they would be in immediate response mode. There is no way they'd let that creature stick with not being able to play anything during their own main phase to contradict my threat.

As for pinning players under a light mana base, the average Thresh hand contains two lands and a Brainstorm/Ponder that will on average find them a third land. No decent Thresh player will keep a one land hand against Chalice Aggro unless they have a cantrip and a free counterspell, which means you won't lock them with Chalice/Trinisphere.

If the average Thresh player opts to Brainstorm and Ponder for another land, let them do it. That's why I have Chalice, Trinisphere, and Wasteland; to punish them in the early game by forcing them to succumb to eliminating their primarily search and draw engines because of a simple Wasteland. And if that player Ponders turn one, what makes you think they'll look for a land anyways? If they're intelligent, they wouldn't have kept a one-lander and tapped out anyways because now they've opened themselves up for Wasteland. That's what I did this weekend and it worked.

Right, but while Daze sets them back a turn, playing Trinisphere takes one of your turns. If you don't have a strong board position, your net gain is minimal.

And if Daze sets them back a turn, and I'm looking at even more threats in my hand, then my net gain is maximum. They will be forced to having to find a solution to the amount of pressure being exerted on them so early with such little production. They have to tap out. And when they do, that is outstanding for me. That point you made is most invalid, because whenever a player sets themselves that far back against an aggro-control deck without a successful counter-spell, that is traumatic and can potentially be game-ending by as early as turn two.

Don't get me wrong, Wasteland and Trinisphere can be great together, but apart they don't do so much in this deck.

This makes no sense what so ever. Wasteland is perfectly fine on its own. No one said they have to be together to work fine. If an opponent opens with two land and one gets knocked off, that's a great thing. And if an opponent taps out to drop a creature or play a spell turn one or two, then they're going to have to contend with holding back and probably play defensively for the rest of the game until they get at least six land out to work with and around Trinisphere.

Trinisphere is great against decks running eight or more free spells and combo decks, and poor against pretty much everything else. If your metagame isn't at least half decks like that, it's a sideboard card.

Again: Completely false. You don't understand what Trinisphere can do even if your opponent doesn't play "zero-cost" spells. You will (again) force your opponent into playing less aggressive and more defensively when Trinisphere resolves because they have to adapt their game-state to deal with the threats you lay out. And when they tap out, no matter what they're playing, they'll be forced to deal with whatever bomb you end up dropping (such as Garruk or Natural Order).

Obviously an early Trinisphere is excellent against almost any deck, but the odds of you being on the play and having three mana plus a Trinisphere are so low that it's not worth the numerous other times where the card is nearly dead.

That's a risk I'm willing to take. There's also this thing called the "mulligan" that allows me to dictate whether or not I find my opening set of cards suitable for the match I'm playing. If Trinisphere is unwarranted in game one, then I'm "losing out" (and I use that term very loosely) on four cards. But it isn't a dead card if you use it properly, even late-game. What happens if your opponent taps out turn twelve (or has let's say, has two land open) and you have enough land yourself to go around and you drop Trinisphere first. Not only have you virtually shut-down whatever plans they had of countering your winning spell, but you've put them in a decision whether or not to counter it or leave it in play because of that very same reason.

You need to know how to use Trinisphere to its maximum capability.

Of course there are benefits to playing Trinisphere in the main, and obviously if your meta looks like T.E.S., CounterTop, and Ichorid you should run Trinisphere in the main. Your metagame call was obviously correct for that tournament, but if your typical tournament doesn't look like that, you probably shouldn't be maindecking the card.

This entire deck is meta-gamed for the current state of Legacy. Most of the decks currently winning tournaments in this format contain a general set of staples that are played in nearly every deck (or close to it). Those decks you listed are some of the best in the format right now. And there's a reason why most of them lost, and it was in part due to Trinisphere. And it wasn't just Trinisphere on turn one or two. There were plays where it hit the board by as late as turn six or seven and still became relevant.

You've already got River Boa, equipment, Chalice and Garruk game one for CounterTop. Is storm really so prevalent in your meta?

My meta consists of brainstorming a melting pot of ideas based on what everyone else is playing in any given area. I brought Trinisphere in the main to Binghamton because I knew there was a high probability there would be an alarming number of decks with a lower curve. I live on a military base, so I don't have the luxury of having a "set-in-stone" meta anymore, really. But for every big tournament I attend, I research what everyone is playing and where everyone is posting and I draw my conclusions from there. It's no less effective than watching film on the team you're playing against this week in sports.

Know your opponents and know what people like to play if you want to win games.

[MTG-Fan]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own countermagic (countertop).

[Michael Keller]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own counter-magic (countertop).

...What exactly are you talking about or trying to prove with that statement? Are you always so pessimistic that you think a deck needs sixty of a single card to win against something else?

This deck is designed to specifically beat blue control-based decks and blue-based aggro decks as a whole. Cards like: Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, River Boa (with equipment), four freakin' Choke, Sword of Fire and Ice (protection from blue), Garruk (his ability to generate uncounterable tokens, Krosan Grip (which destroys Shackles, Disk, Keg, Propaganda, Top, C.B. etc.), Wickerbough Elder (which does the same), Elvish Spirit Guide (to counter Daze, Force Spike, etc.).

And when all the counter-magic is depleted from an opponent's hand, drop a 5/6 or 6/7 Tarmogoyf with all those cards in the graveyard that never saw play.

I'll make sure my opponent depletes his or her hand as quickly as possible in hopes of countering every single threat I establish. Then I'll be more than happy to drop Choke on them when they're all tapped out.

I also play acceleration with green creatures like Llanowar Elves and the planeswalker Garruk; providing me tokens and the ability to untap my lands. Explain to me how Natural Order isn't relevant when I just got done winning 50% of my matches in a 59 player tournament because of it.

Aggro is a tremendous match for blue-based control decks. And especially this hybrid, because all of the cards in the deck pretty much scream, "I hate blue."

[beastman]

River boa plus equipment seems good against blue. So does trinisphere, garruck and chalice and..... well, do you see where this is going???

[Michael Keller]

River boa plus equipment seems good against blue. So does trinisphere, garruck and chalice and..... well, do you see where this is going???

And the beauty of Mono Green Chalice Aggro is: Even if you don't play against Islands, you still have tremendous match-ups with a lot of established decks in the format.

[B is for Big Job]

You really don't have too many answers to blue control except Choke in the SB.

Natural Order just seems better in a rock-like build or a Countertop build that can ensure NO resolves by using discard (Rock) or its own countermagic (countertop).

The whole deck is made to built blue. If you read the primer, any of the posts or the actual deck list you can tell thats what its made for. NO isnt played in just rock builds. This deck has challice and trini to protect NO, other than the fact this deck can go turn 2 NO against some decks and just win the game

[MTG-Fan]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

[Goblin Snowman]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

"For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required."

Edit - A cursory search shows that, yes, it has.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14331
3rd @ Jupiter's 40 Duel Land Draft in a field of 59 players.

[Michael Keller]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

...Seriously?

At any rate, I've been updating my list and should have a new one ready soon. If anyone else has a list they'd like to post, feel free. I'd love to see what direction everyone is looking to go with this.

[beastman]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

Trollmonger is trolling!!!
Seriously dude, do you have a chip on your shoulder or what?

[Obfuscate Freely]

So, Mike, I have been trying to figure this out since I saw your list, but I keep coming up blank. I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but i'll ask anyway:

Why don't you have any fetchlands to tutor up Dryad Arbor?

[Michael Keller]

So, Mike, I have been trying to figure this out since I saw your list, but I keep coming up blank. I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but i'll ask anyway:

Why don't you have any fetchlands to tutor up Dryad Arbor?

I was considering it, but I didn't know for sure if I wanted run my list up a little more open to Stifle hate, you know? There's only a single Arbor in the deck. I was kind of thinking maybe adding two or three fetches in there. Those might be a good substitute for the previously unhelpful Pendelhavens.

[scrumdogg]

Also, isn't there supposed to be some kind of tournament presence required before a deck is formally "established"?

Has anybody even piloted this thing to a top8 at a big tournament yet?

Tips for not appearing actively retarded on the Internet:

1) Read
A) Opening posts & primers
B) following posts (winnowing out the really dumb comments, if any)
2) Actually test something before commenting
A) helps if one actually plays...
3) Proofread posts before flailing at keyboard & hitting <xmit>
4) Hope your parents avoided skinny dipping in the shallow end of the gene pool
A) if this has already happened, break the chain, DO NOT CONTINUE! Stop the hate (and the inbreeding....)

On a deck related note, I will be testing the Shushers (after GP Boston...that kinda has priority right now) for reasons already mentioned. On the Trinisphere debate, given that they are never completely dead (depending on how one plays the deck) and amazing in certain matchups, plus they can always be sided out, I'm failing to see what would replace them that has the same impact. That is the flip side to denigrating a card choice, what replaces it and why? Will the replacement give the same (or added value) especially in the matchups/role where <original card> shined? Why?

[heroicraptor]

How is this different from Elephant Stompy?

[tsabo_tavoc]

How is this different from Elephant Stompy?

From my view, Elephant Stompy is a 12-bombs.dec with 4 Natural Order+4 Garruk+4 Spawnwrithe. This deck does not feature on Spawnwrithe and therefore runs 0 Briarhorn, 0 City of Traitors and 0 Chrome Mox. It has River Boas, Wickerbough Elders, Jittes and Wastelands instead. The decks function similar in the way they play the common 8 bomb spells. Spawnwrithe + Briarhorn is a blast as well as Evasive + Jittes and both are weak against creature removal. Elephant Stompy is more explosive thanks to City of Traitors and Chrome Mox (I also play mana elf there) whereas this deck avoids their card disadvantage but suffers from the G producing consistency. The Wasteland and the freed 4cc slots to play Elders are the strength of this deck.

[Kuma]

Wasteland rarely ever loses its usefulness. Anytime you have the opportunity to destroy an opponent's land and force them to find an answer immediately is never a bad play.

Find an answer to what? Are you saying that when you have something on the board that must be answered destroying a land is huge? That depends on what their answers are and how much land they have.

Even if your opponent is land-heavy, it still produces a colorless and in the rare instance you don't find yourself using it, it won't matter anyways.

This is dangerously close to the "it pitches to Force of Will" argument for bad blue cards. With all the GG costs in the deck and the activated abilities of Wickerbough Elder and River Boa, I'd think you want more green mana.

Trinisphere doesn't have to come down as early as turn one to still be effective.

Against decks not playing a lot of free spells, it really has to come down turn one.

Consider this scenario where you play a turn one Trinisphere on the play:

You: Turn one Trinisphere. (one turn spent)

Them: Land, go. (one turn spent)

You: Creature, go.

Them: Land, go. (two turns spent)

You: Something, go.

Them: Land, something

This is the best case scenario for your opponent if you drop a turn one on the play Trinisphere. You spent one turn playing Trinisphere and they spent at least two turns doing nothing. You have at least a +1 turn advantage here. Very powerful.

Turn one Trinisphere on the draw:

Them: Land, something

You: Trinisphere (one turn spent)

Them: Land, go (one turn spent)

You: Something

Them: Land, something

This is the best case scenario for your opponent if you drop a Trinisphere turn one on the draw. You have a minimum zero turn advantage here, meaning at worst you have whatever benefits Trinisphere grants you for the rest of the game against an opponent with three lands. While Trinisphere may be very useful in this situation, there are no guarantees it does anything for you. It is, however, just as good as the above situation if the opponent does nothing but lay a land on their first turn.

Turn two Trinisphere on the play plays out nearly the same as the above situation.

Turn two Trinisphere on the draw:

Them: Land, something

You: Land, something

Them: Land, something

You: Trinisphere (one turn spent)

Them: Land, something

Best case scenario for them is you spending a turn playing Trinisphere and they don't miss a step. You spend a turn and only gain whatever benefit Trinisphere gives you when your opponent has three mana, which against most decks is minimal.

It only gets worse from here. Most Legacy decks don't play multiple spells per turn, so once they have three mana, you're not getting much benefit from Trinisphere.

Of course there is the possibility your opponent gets stuck on two land, but I wouldn't rely on that.

I can still place pressure on an opponent by playing creatures and using the lock components to keep them on their heels.

I know how Chalice Aggro works. I'm debating how effective Trinisphere is at doing this.

And on turn four, if an opponent sees a Trinisphere hitting the table under the circumstances you mention, they would be in immediate response mode. There is no way they'd let that creature stick with not being able to play anything during their own main phase to contradict my threat.

Response mode as in they have to answer your Trinisphere? Why wouldn't they be able to play anything during their main phase on turn four? I don't follow; why would they have to stop a creature because you dropped Trinisphere?

Again: Completely false. You don't understand what Trinisphere can do even if your opponent doesn't play "zero-cost" spells. You will (again) force your opponent into playing less aggressive and more defensively when Trinisphere resolves because they have to adapt their game-state to deal with the threats you lay out. And when they tap out, no matter what they're playing, they'll be forced to deal with whatever bomb you end up dropping (such as Garruk or Natural Order).

Why can't they continue to drop threats when Trinisphere is out? This, and your other arguments I didn't respond to all seem to pertain to decks with copious amounts of free countermagic. Trinisphere is incredibly useful against these decks --- I've never said otherwise.