[Deck] Mono Green Chalice Aggro

[beastman]

Trinisphere is one of the best cards in the deck. As discussed from the beginning of the thread, it puts lots of pressure on light mana bases, and hurts combo enough for it to be an auto 4 of. Most of the metagame nowadays is comprised of mana light decks which includes thresh and all its variants. I watched this deck play a few rounds at the tournament the other day, and a turn 1 trini resolved on the play is game over. Having a card like that is huge in this deck.

[Kuma]

Odds of a turn one Trinisphere on the play in Hollywood's list:

3%

.4^3 * .5 (Assuming a 50% chance of being on the play)

[beastman]

Thats not the point, even though it sounds like you just made that number up, but the fact is, it is an amazing card. And it gives you a bunch of wins against threshold preboard, as very few lists run answers to artifacts main

[Michael Keller]

...yep...mhmm...yep...

Look, I'm not going to sit here and debate with you on cards that have obviously proven their effectiveness in the most dangerous of metagames. Trinisphere was an absolute house. I can't put it any more than that. It won me rounds. It won me duals. Everyone else seems to be in agreement here that Trinisphere is by far a critical lock component in this build and should not be moved to the sideboard...yet. There is no diagnostic evidence to support anything you said, because the facts are right there in front of you.

I can understand the logic in your argument, but what you fail to ultimately realize is that I don't care if Trinisphere becomes a dead card later in the game. Do you know how many playable cards become that way as time goes on? It's the nature of the beast. If you don't want to main it, fine by me. But it is there because if I do draw it - or mull to it - like I did - then it becomes very relevant.

My priority is to fix the mana-base and rotate cards out that do not belong. I can understand why you don't like Trinisphere main, and that is fine. Personally, I like it. And in nearly every major tournament I've played in for the last year, I've main-decked it with some impressive results. I'm just saying (like I said before), know what you'll be facing in a large field of players and weigh which cards do better than others.

Trinisphere hoses A LOT of decks in the format right now. This is why I played it and this is a good part of the reason I placed third. I'm not selling a point, I'm simply stating the reality of the situation. If I can do that, anyone else can too.

[B is for Big Job]

Hey hollywood, have you tried kitchen finks in the selkie spot? Its amazing. The lifegain makes tomb so much better, makes me untap it more often. He may be only a 3/2 but persist just makes him more valueable. With SoFI from the board just makes him more versitile but making him stick around longer. The 1 problem is the GG in casting cost but is still easy to cast thanks to elf man

[Michael Keller]

Hey hollywood, have you tried kitchen finks in the selkie spot? Its amazing. The lifegain makes tomb so much better, makes me untap it more often. He may be only a 3/2 but persist just makes him more valueable. With SoFI from the board just makes him more versitile but making him stick around longer. The 1 problem is the GG in casting cost but is still easy to cast thanks to elf man

I was looking at Kitchen Finks originally as a sideboard slot before the Dual Land Draft. In the first list I was working on, I wanted a creature of some sort that could give me a little breathing room by giving me extra life to counter-act the Ancient Tomb damage. However, decks that pack enough burn to do a legitimate amount of damage should have serious problems getting around Chalice set at one or even a Trinisphere on board. Goyfs also do have the power to race burn.

I was toying with the notion of side-boarding Trinisphere after some serious thought. I think it is a fantastic card, no doubt, but I want the deck to live up to its name a little more with the "aggro" side of things.

In the main list, here is essentially what I've been leaning towards. I haven't decided whether or not to exclude Trinisphere from the main build. Remember, these are just thoughts:

-4 Trinisphere
-4 River Boa
-3 Cold Eyed Selkie
-2 Pendelhaven

+4 Scryb Ranger
+3 Loaming Shaman
+2 Sword of Fire and Ice
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Forest
+1 Wickerbough Elder

Of course, by doing this, I would reconfigure the sideboard to accommodate Trinisphere. With Sword of Fire and Ice making its way into the main (which I believe it should have in the first place), I think the deck now has an incredibly larger amount of fire-power that was lacking before. Sword is never a dead draw. It's a tide-turner and just generates an obscene amount of card-advantage.

Scryb Ranger is quite nasty with his built-in Quirion Ranger effect. And with Flash, he can stave off an attack and pull off all sorts of neat combat and casting tricks when the situation calls for it. Toss in the flying, protection from blue ability, and any equipment attached and you've got one pretty pissed off Faerie. I think this card is far too useful given its exact abilities to be excluded from this deck. It is the perfect fit.

I've upgraded the list to a brick-solid five equipment (three Jitte and two Sword). I really think these cards put extra pressure on an opponent to find an answer to your immediate threats rather than sit on them and wait for an attack. Once they actually do damage with either of these, that is a whole separate win condition in itself. They make every single creature in your deck relevant. That is indisputable.

Fetches help thin the deck a little more and give a nice touch to be able and get yourself a critter when you have a Natural Order in hand with no guys on the table. Those things can happen, so this is a neat way of inadvertently fetching for Progenitus.

I kind of like these new changes. I'm really trying to adjust the list to work better with Ancient Tomb. I think this works out well. The sideboard is a completely different issue and will really (once again) depend on meta adjustment. I will see how Trinisphere works in the board. It might end up looking something similar to this:

//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[1x] Miscellaneous

Let me know what you all think. I was thinking of possibly another target for Natural Order in the sideboard. Of course, sideboards change and change often, so it is hard to keep one set in stone or maintain one that would be considered universal. I've basically taken just about everyone's advice on the matter and made some sort of contribution based on those ideas, which frankly I think are great ones. I just think the deck needed to cut back on the double-green a tad and make more things happen in the combat step without Progenitus on the table.

[B is for Big Job]

If more aggro is the way to go, then why not add spawnwrithe? I know this isnt elephant stompy but it still goes to say that the card is good in this deck and is a great creature. If unanswered can make a game real short and is a decent top deck creature and those tokens do add more green creatures for NO.

Loaming shaman is an interesting choice. I can see that thing slowing down alot of decks, almost like an ok replacement for trinny

[Mystical_Jackass]

Trinisphere is a great card for all the reasons you guys have stated.. well, I think it might be better as a side though. It just adds... a little too much on the control imo, sorta getting closer to stax and less aggro.

I guess its a judgement call, if you think you're gonna be up against heavy weenie zoo decks or combo, but still.. I think Chalice does a good enough job, removing.. that's 4 more creatures you could use, like briarhorn or loaming shaman to put more pressure on opponent.

I think players had tried spawnwrithe before, in conjunction with tangle wire & briarhorn it just expedites and ends games quick. Part of me likes it, but the other part is that he's just sorta a nub on his own lol, 2/2 is pretty "meh" for Green, the color that's known for its all powerful beaters lol.
I like the idea of SoFI with spawnwrithe though, that has some potential evileness :) Since green doesn't offer the evasion of Blue, trample is a great way to go.

All else fails, throw in a revised Serendib Efreet, that counts as green right? :P

[Tacosnape]

I have no idea whether to post here or in Elephant Stompy, because my build seems to be right in between the two. I don't run Chrome Mox or Spawnwrithe, but I do run City of Traitors and Briarhorn, as well as Loaming Shaman and Wickerbough Elder. I also run more 1-drop mana elves and thrive on the concept of hitting 4 mana on turn 2 often when needed. (Turn two Garruk/Trinisphere, turn two Natural Order, turn two Chal-2, etc.)

[Michael Keller]

I have no idea whether to post here or in Elephant Stompy, because my build seems to be right in between the two. I don't run Chrome Mox or Spawnwrithe, but I do run City of Traitors and Briarhorn, as well as Loaming Shaman and Wickerbough Elder. I also run more 1-drop mana elves and thrive on the concept of hitting 4 mana on turn 2 often when needed. (Turn two Garruk/Trinisphere, turn two Natural Order, turn two Chal-2, etc.)

Right, but by playing more Elves, you're also hurting yourself a little more with Chalice set at one counter. I'm not sure how many you play, but putting yourself in harm's way with sacrifices from the City of Traitors and the inability to cast a Chalice at turn one (effectively shutting down your acceleration package) can be rather detrimental to the ebb and flow of your match.

I'm not saying Elves aren't good for acceleration, it's just I'd rather work my way to four mana without having the burden of sacrifice on my shoulders and the ability to establish threats without having to get to four mana by turn two.

Chalice at two is good against some opponents, but this build it wouldn't be such a great idea unless you were playing a match where it was absolutely necessary. There are some key spells that cost two in this deck. I'm not saying it is imperative not to Chalice at two, but it can hurt you a little bit as well.

I do like the idea of Loaming Shaman; it can really damage the Ichorid (and the like) player like Trinisphere does, except it is a body for Natural Order and equipment.

[Kuma]

Thats not the point, even though it sounds like you just made that number up.

Odds of having a card in your opening seven that you have four of in the deck = ~40%

Odds you're going first = ~50%

In order for Hollywood to cast a turn one Trinisphere on the play he needs an Ancient Tomb, an Elvish Spirit Guide, a Trinisphere, and he needs to go first.

.40 (odds to have Ancient Tomb) * (and) .40 (odds to have Elvish Spirit Guide) * (and) .40 (odds to have Trinisphere) * (and) .50 (odds of being on the play) = .032 = 3.2%

Don't accuse me of making up numbers unless you can back it up.

I was thinking of possibly another target for Natural Order in the sideboard.

I ran an Empyrial Archangel in the board for a while and I absolutely hated it. Even when I boarded it in I found myself going for Progenitus at least nine times out of ten. And when I did get it out, it was usually an expensive Fog.

I don't recommend running a second NO target.

Also, have you tried Spawnwrithe? With all that equipment it seems like it would be really good in your list. After Natural Order, he's been the MVP of my list. If he hits your opponent, you win.

[Michael Keller]

Odds of having a card in your opening seven that you have four of in the deck = ~40%

Odds you're going first = ~50%

In order for Hollywood to cast a turn one Trinisphere on the play he needs an Ancient Tomb, an Elvish Spirit Guide, a Trinisphere, and he needs to go first.

.40 (odds to have Ancient Tomb) * (and) .40 (odds to have Elvish Spirit Guide) * (and) .40 (odds to have Trinisphere) * (and) .50 (odds of being on the play) = .032 = 3.2%

Don't accuse me of making up numbers unless you can back it up.


I ran an Empyrial Archangel in the board for a while and I absolutely hated it. Even when I boarded it in I found myself going for Progenitus at least nine times out of ten. And when I did get it out, it was usually an expensive Fog.

I don't recommend running a second NO target.

Also, have you tried Spawnwrithe? With all that equipment it seems like it would be really good in your list. After Natural Order, he's been the MVP of my list. If he hits your opponent, you win.

I had him in a mock Stax list I was running in testing for the tournament. I really think Spawnwrithe could be devastating with more equipment because he doesn't necessarily scream, "Win more." And to pump him up to make his trample ability even more relevant, he is probably even more viable than before. He just puts copies of himself into play that makes it all the hard to stop the bleeding.

He also fits the curve well with Ancient Tomb at 2G. I'd have to reconsider my early threats to accomodate him.

[Tacosnape]

Chalice at two is good against some opponents, but this build it wouldn't be such a great idea unless you were playing a match where it was absolutely necessary. There are some key spells that cost two in this deck. I'm not saying it is imperative not to Chalice at two, but it can hurt you a little bit as well.

Well, technically, it hurts you. I have 0 2-drops in my deck, except for Chalice at 1 and Jitte in board. This is what's odd. Three quarters of our decklists are similar, but mine plays nothing like yours, nor anything like Elephant Stompy. I might have to start a third entire thread for my deck.

Don't get me wrong. I like your list a lot. I just don't have near the blue in my metagame to warrant it.

But your point on the 1-drop elves is well noted. I've been fluctuating between six and eight, I hate dropping Chal-1 on an elfless hand and then topdecking two in the next four cards or so.

This is really random and I don't know given your curve how strong it is, but have you considered Defense of the Heart in your sideboard for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, and other random aggro decks? I've been tinkering around with it and I like it. I pack three, and have been toying with alternate second creatures to get with it. Against Zoo, Progenitus/Loaming Shaman is fun to reset their Goyfs. Against Merfolk or Goblins, Progenitus/Wickerbough eats Vials. Etc. It's even better if you run the second NO target you were contemplating.

[AngryTroll]

Edit: This guy disagrees with me on the math. http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php
Although I'm not completely convinced that he's right, I can convince myself that two different numbers are correct, using two different approaches, so I'll defer to his math. My bad.

[Maveric78f]

Angrytroll: the problem with your numbers is that they are not disjoint, meaning that they can't be added. The good process for computing this probability is the following one:

The probability of drawing at least one of a four-of in a 7-card hand from a 60-card deck is 1 minus the probability of drawing none of them. The probability of drawing none of them is easy to compute: you have to draw one of the 56 other cards in your first pich, then one of the 55 remaining other careds in your second pick, and so on until the 7th.

P(draw at least 1) = 1 - 56*55*54*53*52*51*50/(60*59*58*57*56*55*54)
P(draw at least 1) = 1 - 53*52*51*50/(60*59*58*57)
P(draw at least 1) = 39.9%

So yeah, 40% chance is a good approximation, better than yours at least.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Edit: This guy disagrees with me on the math. http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php
I'm not sure why we disagree, though.

Because you aren't using the correct formula, so you're getting the wrong answer. When you want to figure out probability of drawing at least 1 card, you need to figure out the probability of drawing exactly 0 and subtract that probability from 1. The guy in that link explains it pretty well, but if you're still having trouble you can try:
http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinator...mutations.html

[Maveric78f]

A ninja point point for me.

Edit: for not only bragging.

If your question is the probability of drawing at least 1 trinisphere, 1 ancient tomb and 1 ESG in the opening 7, then the math are a big more complex and to get an close approximation, I would consider the MonteCarlo algorithm (repeat the drawing 1 billion times and evaluate how many times a turn 1 trinisphere happened). That requires programming and I won't do that. But if you want a majorant you can take the (40%)^3 = 6.4%. I'm quite sure it's far above the real number though.

Edit 2: Another majorant is 4.2%. This one should be quite close to the reality.

[Tacosnape]

Without getting into the math arguments, the problem with the Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/4 Blank Cards logic is that it doesn't consider the following:

1. The chances of getting it in a 6-card hand after you mulligan a 7, which means you'd need to calculate the probability of a keepable 7-card hand, which is all speculative based on matchups and probably impossible.

2. What the other four cards are. For example, you aren't always going to keep Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/4 Land, nor might you want to necessarily keep Tomb/Tomb/Esg/Trinisphere/Trinisphere/Trinisphere/Jitte, etc so on.

The point is made, however. The turn one Trinisphere isn't going to happen much.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea, too many variables go into pulling off turn1 trinisphere. Maybe in the land of pure imagination, we can dream of first turn trinis against every matchup and smile complacent as we drift asleep ;P

I believe that Trinisphere is much more situational than Chalice is in most matchups, so sideboard it is. Trinisphere slows down, Chalice shuts down.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, I just said the point was made. I still think Trinisphere should be maindecked.