[Deck] Mono Green Chalice Aggro

[dirtyapes]

Actually, I just said the point was made. I still think Trinisphere should be maindecked.

/agreed

It took 3rd at a large tournament with it maindecked, I think that it proved it was worth the spot. Results > Math

[Kuma]

It took 3rd at a large tournament with it maindecked, I think that it proved it was worth the spot. Results > Math

This is a small sample size fallacy at best and completely disingeneous at worst.

Just because a deck did well at a particular tournament, no matter how large, doesn't mean its card choices were ideal.

The highest placing Faerie Stompy list at GP Chicago had Force of Will in the sideboard.

The high placing Dragon Stompy list at GP Chicago hasn't led to people running fifteen singletons in their sideboards. Why not? Because these are obviously subpar decisions (I'm not saying Trinisphere is obviously subpar, I'm making a general statement about this kind of reasoning).

Who's to say these decks wouldn't have done even better with different card choices?

[Tacosnape]

Strangely I kind of agree with Kuma. Decks that place higher than the rest with one or two random card choices should be examined, and neither necessarily dismissed or automatically considered to be superior.

If I go run a Countertop list that's packing a maindeck Shivan Dragon, for example, and win a tournament with it? It probably means I won in spite of Shivan Dragon and not because of it, even if I resolved it and won a game with it once or twice.

That said, I still like Trinisphere in this list.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Exactly, scrutinize them and get a feel for what worked and what didn't... well, obviously it didn't win 1st place (not meant to sound snobby btw), so what didn't work? That's what its all about.


Needs more baseline testing, otherwise we're just picking out peaks in a graph to represent the mean. lol

But your right then, if Trinisphere proved to do really well it should stay in till someone proves a better option.

[georgjorge]

Hmm, but didn't Hollywood, who did the placing in the tournament, just say on the previous page that he's probably moving them to the side (strangely one or two posts after telling Kuma that they were proven to be very good in the main) ?

[dirtyapes]

I was just saying that you can't use a mathematical probability of dropping a first turn Trinisphere as the basis of dropping a card from a deck. It produced with them in the deck so I'm not going to say drop them based on probability. If testing proves that Trinisphere should be moved to the SB then great because it makes the deck better. I just don't like the idea of taking something out without testing to make sure it is the right move.

[Michael Keller]

Hmm, but didn't Hollywood, who did the placing in the tournament, just say on the previous page that he's probably moving them to the side (strangely one or two posts after telling Kuma that they were proven to be very good in the main) ?

I said it wasn't definite yet in my posting. What I'm currently trying to decide is what slots are considerably wide-open more than others. Trinisphere is one of those cards that could realistically go either way; it doesn't have to be just side-boarded to be great. These cards have had ample time over the years to prove themselves worthy of a main-deck slot.

I was considering moving it to the side because I was taking people's points into consideration. I understand why folks think it is better in the side-board; the same thing happened with Imperial Painter (a whole different beast, but none the less).

Trinisphere works well in big tournaments because against most decks, it can be crushing if it is dropped in the first few turns. If not, it does lose its luster over time but there are still ways it can be effective. It did well in the main for one big tournament, so I am still not convinced out-right. But I don't think it was a fluke either, because the decks I played against and beat using Trinisphere, it ended up being the deal-breaker.

If a single card can be that effective in the early-goings of a game, it certainly warrants inclusion in the 75-card list. Whether or not it finds its way to a main-slot is still undecided.

[4eak]

After sitting down to play this deck, I have to say, I was impressed. In my eyes, Tarmogoyf is the best reason to play Green as the primary color of a chalice deck. Natural Order->Progenitus seems like the next best reason, Choke's Anti-Blue awesomeness the next, and ESG seems like a distant 4th.

This isn't directly a mono green chalice question, but would it be worth splashing for red for Moon effects? You already have Chalice/Trinisphere, Moon just makes the deck that more dangerous. You would still be primarily a green chalice deck, but splashing wouldn't be difficult.

Taiga can replace a few Forests, and Wooded Foothills might already be worth running for Dryad Arbor. Throw in SSG (which is excellent for Turn 1 plays), and you should have an acceptable splash.

Perhaps:

// Lands
6 [ARE] Forest (7)
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders (generally colorless, pitches junk, CoTV@1-stuck Elves, or a stuck Prog in hand)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [B] Llanowar Elves (I'd prefer this stay Elves, but BoP or another R/G source like Chrome Mox would be acceptable)

// Spells
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Just a thought of course. Moon effects spell 'GG' for too many decks not to consider it.

Of course, I have a hard-on for Goyf+Moon+Chalice/3Sphere+8 Spirit Guides. I always wondered if Imperial Recruiter would be useful in such a deck as well.





peace,
4eak

[paK0]

Sry if i overlooked it, but has anyone tried Spawnwrithe?
If Trini stays main it seems like a total gamewinner.

[Michael Keller]

After sitting down to play this deck, I have to say, I was impressed. In my eyes, Tarmogoyf is the best reason to play Green as the primary color of a chalice deck. Natural Order->Progenitus seems like the next best reason, Choke's Anti-Blue awesomeness the next, and ESG seems like a distant 4th.

This isn't directly a mono green chalice question, but would it be worth splashing for red for Moon effects? You already have Chalice/Trinisphere, Moon just makes the deck that more dangerous. You would still be primarily a green chalice deck, but splashing wouldn't be difficult.

Taiga can replace a few Forests, and Wooded Foothills might already be worth running for Dryad Arbor. Throw in SSG (which is excellent for Turn 1 plays), and you should have an acceptable splash.

Perhaps:

// Lands
6 [ARE] Forest (7)
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders (generally colorless, pitches junk, CoTV@1-stuck Elves, or a stuck Prog in hand)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [B] Llanowar Elves (I'd prefer this stay Elves, but BoP or another R/G source like Chrome Mox would be acceptable)

// Spells
2 [M10] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Just a thought of course. Moon effects spell 'GG' for too many decks not to consider it.

Of course, I have a hard-on for Goyf+Moon+Chalice/3Sphere+8 Spirit Guides. I always wondered if Imperial Recruiter would be useful in such a deck as well.





peace,
4eak

This is a mono-colored deck, so the inclusion of red cards defeats the whole purpose of the title. This is not the place for splashes.

One of the primary reasons the deck runs a single color is to avoid Waste and Moon effects, essentially rendering useless four to eight cards an opponent might play. In your list, you've opened up to hate from both Stifle and Wasteland. Moon effects or not, this is not the place to digress from what the original intentions of concept design were for the deck: To play to green's strengths and render the most played cards in the format useless. I don't want the deck to devolve into a Dragon Stompy variant with big red creatures instead of green.

You've also diluted the original concept by playing red creatures over green. This can absolutely punish your hand if you have to Natural Order in any given scenario.

It's simplicity; sometimes adding colors can be a good thing. Other times, it might not. Here, it isn't necessary.

[frodo21]

Hi all. I am new on this thread and on the source. I am French so I'll try to speak in a not-so-bad English...

I intensively tested the deck (spending these two nights testing...), so I can affirm that all my choices are the results of these tests. That said, I can (and I am probably) be wrong in my choices... But let's see my current version :

4 Llanowar elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Wickerbough
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 River Boa
2 Deadly Recluse
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Isao, Enlightened Bushi

4 Wasteland
1 Pendelhaven
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Forest

I had played Green Stompy for a long time without success I must say, so when I saw your list I was impressed by its lack of explosivness (I don't know if this word exists, I mean there the capacity of making huge first turn) : no cities, no moxen, ...
I tested your list and I find that the consistency is the key of the deck and makes it superior to Green Stompy.
This is also why I play two more lands than you Hollywood and -2 ESG. I also added one Llanowar like because it is such a good first turn... even though it lacks the synergy with CotV...

I only play 3 tarmogoyf. It may seem to be a weird choice. But in fact in this deck he is not such a house. I mean, the deck often plays the defensive role, waiting for the 4cc breakers. Tarmo is not good in this deck to put a early pressure, because you won't have cards enough cards in your grave (even if you are countered...). It is also a bad wall in this deck in the early game.

The deck as powerful 4cc spells. I mean : garruk, NO, wikerbough (less), jitte+ equip, and CotV at 2 (amazing against many decks !!). That said, I think that the deck as to be build in order to reach these four manas with the best board control as possible (the deck plays 56 permanents...).
I found that creatures that regenerate (boa and Isao) or can kill whatever creature (reach+deathtouch) are amazing in this deck : they gain you life, so time, so that you can reach your 4 manas.
Their strong resilience to damages make of them strong walls.

Wikerbough is a house in the deck, one should play at least three of them.

My current sideboard :

4 Choke
3 Hail Storm
2 Snakeform
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Tormod's Crypt

I hope I didn't make too many mistakes...

peace

Frodo.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What you said made a lot of sense.

1/2 Spider with deathtouch. Well, I love how you're putting M10 to use :)
That's a really interesting idea, if the creature was 1/3 that'd be so gg but I suppose its a great idea to have against Faerie Stompy or Akroma. Just seems like sorta a bad play dropping a creature that can only go 1-for-1 with most others.

I agree with Wickerbough Elder.. I dunno about Isao. He's kinda bad :\

Briarhorn is too good not to have some of imo.
Flash
innate giant growth = creature removal/Finisher (your running River Boa too, that's instant 5/4 landwalker in some games)
Evoke, which makes him more versatile if you dont have the mana and need to use the ability. Can be used to keep other creatures alive for NO.

[4eak]

@ Hollywood

Your post wasn't very charitable to my question at all (almost as if you've over-reacted or taken this too personally). I'll be happy to explain my thoughts for you again.

This is a mono-colored deck, so the inclusion of red cards defeats the whole purpose of the title. This is not the place for splashes.

Thanks for that clarification. Considering it is the current living post (because there are many on this site) for a primarily green chalice deck, I think it was the appropriate place to ask if 'splashing for Moons in a primarily Green chalice deck' should be considered.

You did not explain why playing exclusively green, as opposed to primarily green with splashes or other variations, was necessary in your opening post. You clearly think this is an important issue, so feel free to add that to your primer.

Moon effects or not, this is not the place to digress from what the original intentions of concept design were for the deck: To play to green's strengths and render the most played cards in the format useless. I don't want the deck to devolve into a Dragon Stompy variant with big red creatures instead of green.

Be charitable; You and I both know the intent of my question was not to 'digress' into a bad version of Dragon Stompy. I've certainly held steadfast to the most important original design elements of this deck. I've already stated what I considered to be the real strengths of a primarily Green Chalice deck:

• Tarmogoyf
• NO-Progenitus
• Choke
• ESG and other Green creature mana producers

I think I kept the heart of the deck intact, and I'm clearly not trying to 'devolve' (you continue to use weasel words) the deck. I wouldn't have asked a question unless I thought it would be a relevant one, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply otherwise. I still think I have a good question:

Why not play Moon effects? Moon is clearly a powerhouse is similar archetypes. The splash is certainly possible (particularly in green), and we should explore the depth of risk of splashing, and consider the benefits of having Moon effects, increased explosiveness from SSG, and whatever other cards might be useful to this deck.

You provided three actual reasons (from what I can tell) why we should not splash:

1. Splashing makes the mana base less consistent in the face of Wasteland/Stifle
2. Splashing decreases overall color consistency
3. Using red creatures, instead of green ones, decreases the saccable fodder for Natural order

Let me handle these one at a time.


(1): Splashing makes the mana base less consistent in the face of Wasteland/Stifle

Your deck:

[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Dryad Arbor

13 cards which are subject to Wasteland. My thought-experiment deck (far from perfect):

4 [A] Taiga
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

This has 9 cards which are subject to Wasteland. Hmm...I don't think fear of Wasteland was the reason you went solely green instead of considering a splash. You'll also notice that Moon effects "handle" opposing wastelands fairly well. Moon effects are often very powerful against the majority of decks which play Stifle/wasteland.

As for stifle, you'll notice in your post right here that you've also considered using Wooded Foothills. Clearly, you aren't too concerned about Stifle either. You also play Wastelands (which can be stifled) and I didn't in my thought-experiment.

I've tested against a few people playing with this deck, and plenty of them ran the Wooded Foothills as I did, even in purely Mono green builds, to find Arbor for NO. My idea to play fetchlands isn't 'digressing' as much as you've implied.

I'd argue that Stifle/Wasteland wasn't really a serious concern taken into account in your 'original ideas', and that the Stifle/Wasteland isn't really much more dangerous against a well-built Green Chalice Deck w/red splash than for the purely mono-green build you've offered us.

I think (1) is a terrible reason, and it wasn't seriously something you considered when going Mono Green, as evidenced in your primer's decklist.


(2): Splashing decreases overall color consistency

Your deck:

[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[9x] Forest
[2x] Pendelhaven
[1x] Dryad Arbor

16 Initial sources and 20 in Total

My thought experiment example:

6 [ARE] Forest
4 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [b] Llanowar Elves

19 Initial sources and 23 in Total

I've substituted Wastelands (because they aren't necessary with Moon effects) for color producing lands, and I've overall improved the decks odds of drawing a mana source in general. While your example has 28 total mana sources, mine had 31.

As far as I can see, my version had a stronger mana-base than yours. Even if you disagree, you can see that it at least seems possible that this deck could splash for red without completely disrupting the consistency of the manabase.

You might argue that Moon effects themselves destroy our own manabase. This is rarely the case in practice. Moon effects might prevent Dragon stompy from "splashing" easily, mainly because you will have difficulty having the secondary color source up during Moon. However, if you are splashing for Moon from a non-red primary color, you'll usually have a generous supply of your primary color (basic forest+creature-based mana), and an improved chance to have red. It seems quite possible to splash Moon and retain color consistency in this deck.

Finally, for (2), I'm not saying pure Mono green couldn't possibly have a more stable manabase than those which would splash, but I don't think it would be that much more stable (as your example shows). On the other hand, the cost of splashing for a second color in Legacy is very minimal, and the benefits could certainly be very large (Moon is a pretty sick effect).


(3): Using red creatures, instead of green ones, decreases the saccable fodder for Natural order

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Your list ran 25 Green Creatures (counting Garruk, but not Progenitus) and 4 Natural Orders, whereas my list ran 15 Green Creatures and 3 Natural orders, 19 possible green creatures if you include fetching for Dryad Arbor. The ratio is in your favor, but I haver to admit, I absolutely hated having 2 Natural Orders while playing your version of the deck. Additionally, with a 17% chance to have Progenitus stuck in your hand on Turn 3 (on the play), Natural Order can be much less relevant.

I also think the Red creatures I chose weren't that bad. SSG gave you some broken turn 1s, and Magus of the Moon is obvious. Gathan raiders might need further explanation. When you have Progenitus stuck in hand, Gathan gives you a way to get the card back into your library. When you have multiples of cards like Trinisphere/Chalice (which you generally can't use), Gathan's morph cost can actually be a strength in further enabling Tarmogoyf and putting cards that might otherwise be dead to good use.

We really need to ask whether or not a 'decrease in NO targets is worth what 'red creatures bring to the table'. If you've actually tried a red splash (your post doesn't indicate you have), you might be pleasantly surprised by the explosive starts, the raw power of Moon effects, and the increased versatility of your sideboard.


Again, I'm not saying the deck should splash for red. I'm saying it is worth consideration, and that perhaps you've not given enough thought about it. My question is attempting to be a constructive one that helps the deck progress, and I trust you can see that now. I hope you aren't blindly stuck on "purely mono green" because it is your 'pet' deck, but rather are honestly interested in progress, even if it could end up being a different deck than you originally intended.





peace,
4eak

[frodo21]

I tested two snakeform in the slot of Isao (in maybe 80 games...) which are in my view for away better than Briarhorn in a build that doesn't run spawnwrithe (which is bad in this version of the deck).
I arrived to the conclusion that this card is good, but not against every MUs. That's why it is in the sideboard. This is for example very conditionnal : the opponent has to attack (I mean, if you want snakeform to be very efficient, he has to attack/block), you must have a blocker/attacker, your spell mustn't be countered, etc...

So I moved them sideboard and tried Isao. Isao is very good for blocking, especially versus merfolk/thresh. I tested so much vs blue decks that my conception of the deck may have been affected, and that why I find an uncounterable creature so nice. But it's others capacities are in fact much more important...

[Goblin Snowman]

4eak - Out of curiosity, while running with the Red splash, did you ever test Sarkhan Vol in the place of a NO or Garruk? He seems solid enough to at least test in the place of one of the other powerful 4 drops.

[Michael Keller]

@4eak:

I was trying to explain simply that Moon effects and the sort have no place in this specific archetype because we are trying to move this into a mono-colored direction. That is what did so well at this previously large tournament, so we are going to further examine why.

As far as the mana-base is considered: I made it abundantly clear in earlier posts that the mana-base was unstable and needed to be reworked. I indicated that some of the main issues the decks was primarily facing was, in fact, cards such as: Wasteland and Moon effects. It's hard to believe that actually can be a factor aaginst a single-colored deck, but it was. That issue has been relatively resolved as I've been reworking my mana-base intensively these last few weeks.

Your splashes for cards like Simian Spirit Guide to supplement the inherently "broken" turn one plays are a neat idea, to be certain. Unfortunately, in doing so, you are focusing more and more on the turn one play and less as much on the turn two play. One of the main examples to help supplement my point is that I moved Trinisphere to the board. There are ample ways in the current build to get the dreaded "Chalice for One" out turn one. I don't want to focus more on the "free mana" aspect of Chalice Aggro as much as I want the permanent acceleration. This I believe to be sufficient with the inclusion of Elves, Tomb, and Elvish Spirit Guide.

What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play. I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

I also don't necessarily consider Wasteland as pain toward Magus or Blood Moon. In theory, an opponent will drop one of those cards with a "two-mana" producing land (Tomb or City). These can be wasted in response; devastating an opponent early in the game. This theory has been tried and tested and obviosuly is effective. Chalice set at one can ensure a complete shut-down of Stifle and removal, so that your opponent stays pinned.

Natural Order is a significant card in this deck. Without it, the deck loses a very critical component in how it wins. I want to maintain a constant green creature count (or a small increase) to supplment and exploit its potency in the early stages of the game. By even removing a few green creatures, the chances do diminish in getting Progenitus into play sooner rather than later. This also works against free-mana accelerating creatures; when they are pitched, you are removing one more card in your hand to help actually get a creature into play and then subsequently N.O.

If there's anything I've learned from playing Dark Belcher and Imperial Painter over the years, it is that acceleration only has its advantages when you have something to back up what it is you're playing. This deck can actually generate card advantage in bizarre ways, which helps it win closer games.

I am not dismissing your ideas, I like them actually. But we are all trying to maintain an effective mono-green list that can win and win regularly. In doing so, we are creating an effective (and moderately) original concept in the current Legacy metagame that can compete with any deck in the format, as it has already proven.

[Mystical_Jackass]

[B][SIZE="3"]
I also think the Red creatures I chose weren't that bad. SSG gave you some broken turn 1s, and Magus of the Moon is obvious. Gathan raiders might need further explanation. When you have Progenitus stuck in hand, Gathan gives you a way to get the card back into your library. When you have multiples of cards like Trinisphere/Chalice (which you generally can't use), Gathan's morph cost can actually be a strength in further enabling Tarmogoyf and putting cards that might otherwise be dead to good use.
peace,
4eak

I think that's a very interesting idea, since... well, taking it back to Elephant Stompy the biggest problem seemed to be finding that 3cc signature green creature lol. Maybe that creature shouldn't be green at all?


I just have 2 questions.

(1) As far as Magus. How would you side that out, according to your sideboard if your opponent is playing monos... which, at least in my meta seems like 3/4 of the decks I play?

(2) In terms of the synergy of Garruk + Ancient Tomb, would you see turn 1-2 Moon slow down some of the Xplosive acceleration turn 3+ ?

I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

Good answer. However same could be said about any 3cc drop I guess.. I dunno.

Btw, I like the idea of keeping Green with tha' Green too. Something about spalsh is like Bleh to me but interesting nonetheless :P

[yankeedave]

@4eak

I think your R/G list is strong enough for a post in the N&D forums, why not post it there and let it run?

Dave

[frodo21]

What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play. I want to force my opponent into countering chronological threats instead of a single threat that can eat it early to removal or a counter spell.

I totally agree with this. This is the way the deck works. That's why it is not elephant stompy (and not a stompy at all).
I even considered to play smokestack in my list. And crucible (and few mishras). I didn't but that shows well that the deck is closer to a stax-shell than a stompy.

@hollywood : any comments about my list ??

[Mystical_Jackass]

@HOllywood
Okay, either this idea is on crack, or its horribly awesome.

What if you used like 2 Kodama of the South Tree in place of Cold-Eyed Selkie, since you're running sorta a weenie brigade with boa, elves, goyf, etc.

So basically, mid-game Elvish Spirit Guide = +1/+1 Trampleness? NOBODY would see that coming ROFL. The tree itself counts as a spirit too