The curve at 4cc is already full of game breakers, and I don't think that adding anoher 4cc spell in the deck is a good option.Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
What's more, it is so much weaker than these other 4cc that I wouldn't replace any of them by Kodama.
The deck would probably better need a 2G card...
What about Lone Wolf.The deck would probably better need a 2G card...
Equip it with SoFI/SoLS, it would offer great card advantage as well as damage.
I mean, it looks good on paper. If you're getting good results with it, then run with it. If Bushi is working good for you, I'd suggest keeping him in.
Adding a splash is really not a bad thing. It just adds a whole new dimension to the deck and that is just a completely seperate idea. I would love to read the congruency between the decks and see where it ends up.
I'll have my own updated list posted for everyone later tonight. It's essentially an application of earlier posts that I worked with and ended up liking it a lot. Remember: No one is really going to play the exact same list all the time. There are subtle intricacies that distinctly seperate each person's list and suit each person's wants and needs.
About the 2G card: I am seriously looking into Spawnwrithe. By shutting down Swords early, he will just take over the game himself. More times than not, he will draw a counter. If not, most other creatures can stare him down later in the game. That is until he gets equipped with Sword or Jitte. Then, they'll have problems. So he's essentially just a good drop whenever you play him. And, he fits the curve.
I'm really liking everyone's ideas, though. Keep them coming.
In fact spawnwrithe would be at his best in a stompy shell. I mean : 4 city of traitors + 4 ancient tomb, 4 mox of chrome, 4 ESG.
'Cause you said it, it is not so good (let's say bad) in the mid/late game. And even with an equipment it won't be able to beat the opponent's tarmogoyf...
It also implies to play briarhorn.
But then the deck relies more on its first turn and this is then a stompy.deck. I don't think that it is what the deck wants...
Concerning the splash, I would consider splashing blue. It may seem strange but I'll post a list later if I can test it.
@ Goblin Snowman
I didn't try Sarkhan. To be honest, I don't really like that card very much. It could be decent though. If you test it, let me know.
@ Hollywood
I liked your explanation a lot more. You made a lot of sense.
Chalice/Tomb decks are innately 'bomby', with the trade-off being consistency. This 'bomb' model has been successful, so you can see why I at least considered it a possibility. Lowering the bomby nature of Chalice/Tomb decks has historically been unsuccessful, so perhaps you can see why I considered trying a different direction in Mono Green Chalice Aggro. For example, I think the deck would be successful in virtue of playing 3sphere in the main (particularly on turns 1 and 2), not in spite of it. I think a combination of mana-denial, Goyf, NOP, and fast mana are what make this deck awesome, not its ways to create CA. But, perhaps a more CA-based approach to this aggro deck would be better, but I don't think your current argument is good enough to show that MGA shouldn't consider splashing for Moon effects.Your splashes for cards like Simian Spirit Guide to supplement the inherently "broken" turn one plays are a neat idea, to be certain. Unfortunately, in doing so, you are focusing more and more on the turn one play and less as much on the turn two play....What I am gunning for (as I was before), is a single-colored Aggro Control deck that doesn't need to deplete its hand or over-extend its resources to ensure a potential first-turn broken play.
Obviously, NOProg is very bomby, and important in this deck; I don't deny that. But, that doesn't mean you absolutely must cram every green creature you can into the deck. I think you really need to answer 'what is the minimum number of green creatures I must run to consistently NO?' Perhaps we disagree on that line. I'm not against maximizing green creatures, but I do think we should consider the alternatives. Even splashing red purely for Magus of the Moon (and Blood moon in the side) could be very profitable.Natural Order is a significant card in this deck. Without it, the deck loses a very critical component in how it wins. I want to maintain a constant green creature count (or a small increase) to supplment and exploit its potency in the early stages of the game. By even removing a few green creatures, the chances do diminish in getting Progenitus into play sooner rather than later.
I understand your aims. I want more proof as to why pure MGA would be better than MGA/w a red splash for Moons. If this deck were more established, then I could see why you it would be less necessary to answer the question. From my perspective though, this is an archetype that has largely failed, but was successful in your single case; and, I think the archetype and its aims are wide-open, not explored, and still in the vetting process.we are all trying to maintain an effective mono-green list that can win and win regularly. In doing so, we are creating an effective (and moderately) original concept in the current Legacy metagame that can compete with any deck in the format, as it has already proven.
Out of curiousity, did you recently play against mono white control and then Goblins recently on MWS with Scryb-version of this deck?
@ Mystical_Jackass
Good question. For Islands, obviously Choke. Using Blood Moon immediately assumes a metagame that is full of non-basics, so you shouldn't be siding these out often.(1) As far as Magus. How would you side that out, according to your sideboard if your opponent is playing monos... which, at least in my meta seems like 3/4 of the decks I play?
It certainly has impact. If you are dropping Moon first, then that is a sign that you considered Garruk a weaker play. On the flip side, turning Ancient Tombs which hit for 2 life a turn into Mountains can be a blessing.In terms of the synergy of Garruk + Ancient Tomb, would you see turn 1-2 Moon slow down some of the Xplosive acceleration turn 3+
peace,
4eak
4eak :
In the previous page you developed your ideas, especially for the mana base of the GR version. You said that your mana base is less vulnerable to mana denial. I disagree with this.
Take a look at my mana base. I run 4 ancient tomb, 1 pendelhaven and 4 wasteland as possible targets (for the opponent's waste). I am considering dropping the pendelhaven.
You run 4 ancient tomb, 1 dryad arbor and 4 taiga.
We have the same number of non basic lands (if I count the pendelhaven...).
BUT the opponent will rarely waste my wasteland, and if he does such a thing it is not a problem, because this is the purpose of wasteland in the deck (doing -1 land for the opponent...).
You'll suffer much more if your taiga is wasted than me if my wasteland is wasted...
Then you play fetches... which make you vulnerable to stifle...
But I think that your deck sould be more compared to Green stompy rather than this deck. We don't want these 8 guides for huge turn 1... we want turn one llanowar (and depending on the MU CotV at 1), and then consistency.
Your hand is empty on turn two with your version (I exagerate). Our is full of gamebreakers...
But your list seems strong. The fact is that I don't think that it is the appropriate topic to talk of it...
As promised, here is the current list I run. I will discuss the changes below:
Mono Green Chalice Aggro
//Main
[4x] Llanowar Elves
[4x] Tarmogoyf
[4x] Natural Order
[4x] Chalice of the Void
[4x] Elvish Spirit Guide
[3x] Scryb Ranger
[3x] Spawnwrithe
[3x] Garruk Wildspeaker
[3x] Wickerbough Elder
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Loaming Shaman
[2x] Sword of Fire and Ice
[1x] Progenitus
[9x] Forest
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Wasteland
[2x] Wooded Foothills
[1x] Dryad Arbor
//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[3x] Choke
[3x] Krosan Grip
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Crucible of Worlds
Essentially, what I've done is altered some main-deck choices to better suit the colorless mana foundation. You probably notice some major renovating going on here, so I'll explain:
Trinisphere to the Sideboard
This was the hardest decision of all. I mean, why else would I rotate one of the most prevalent cards to the sideboard? Well, after careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that Trinisphere was far more effective in the sideboard. There are a lot of instances in which it is dead; contrary to what I said before. Some people will continue playing it in the main, and I fully understand why. I simply chose to beef-up my deck with more effective equipment to supplement smaller creatures which become extraordinarily dangerous in the wake of combat.
The Addition of Scryb Ranger
When I was reconfiguring the mana-base, I needed to think long and hard about cards that could assist in fixing the double-green issue. With Scryb Ranger, I am able to do many different things, such as:
a.) Attack through and hold off any blue creatures.
b.) Create a surprise block with any creature on the table with his Flash and untap ability.
c.) Replay Forests to give me double-green.
d.) Avoid a Chalice set at one.
e.) Apply devastating tricks with mana to equip and subsequently attack.
I think he really is the perfect fit for what we are trying to accomplish here. A real "Swiss-Army" knife, if you will.
Spawnwrithe: Good or Not?
We'll soon find out. With a mana-foundation that can easily play this creature out turn one or two, he can multiply himself very quickly, essentially making him an indisputable target for removal or counter-magic. He is blockable, to be certain. But with cards like Jitte and Sword, he can get over the hump and make more of himself in a hurry. Otherwise, he is either good fodder to Natural Order. If he gets in there, that spells doom for any opponent at any stage of the game. His copies also make Engineered Explosives a tad harder to set up and activate.
Loaming Shaman
Pretty self-explanatory here. He is a good substitute for what Trinisphere did against decks like Ichorid; he shuts down the graveyard and can punish cards like Jotun Grunt. He is easily castable and serves a decent body capable of blocking and killing Goose, getting in with the attack with equipment, and a sacrificial lamb for the Progenitus.
**Take note that there is a recurring theme here; most of the cards substituted or removed for these newer cards dramatically improve the curve of the deck with mana costs such as 2G, as opposed to more GG-cost spells that proved to be catastrophic with the previous installment.
Wooded Foothills to the Rescue
In order to seek out the lone Dryad Arbor as a source of utility and being able to thin out the deck a bit more, Foothills can be useful in the most unlikely of circumstances. It might make sense to play three instead of two, but with just the right amount of acceleration, I felt it incumbent upon myself to use this card as a (virtually, sans Stifle) uncounterable tutor for a Natural Order target. In a very rare circumstance, he might even be fetched to stop a Lackey turn one, or even a fooled Dark Confidant on the attack several turns later.
Crucible of Worlds
I was thinking about cards that could help me against mana-bases that pack more non-basics and the effect this card could potentially have on them. I had already considered this even before the deck placed well. In the original concept design, the deck was slated to be more of a Stax variant than aggro. But one of the cards that was irrevocably powerful was Crucible of Worlds in that it creates its own lock with Wasteland. I wanted to bring out the flavor of Wasteland in the deck, and I think against decks that are unprepared to handle this potentially devastating hard-lock, it could be a significant alternate route to victory. I have also questioned the utility of Ghost Quarter in this deck. Could it actually be better in some circumstances? Possibly.
I think these changes for reasons given have helped shaped the deck to play more efficiently.
Dryad Arbor is an interesting idea. Its very open to removal... as far as Lackey? Well, that's pretty sad I'd hate to have to give up a land drop to stop a creature.. goblins' gonna have 2 lands in play the next turn, drop a fanatic and vial and say go with a smile :)
Spawnwrithe, as we've discussed many times before, is most effective in A) Elephant Stompy with mox, city of traitors, 1st turn drop; B) Tangle Wire (ideally following Briarhorn drop); & C) Briarhorn support allowing it to trample over top.
I also think 5 equipment is a little too much IMO. Other than that, I love Loaming Shaman, he's hella gg
Spawnwrithe gets larger with your equipment and can create a very unnerving scenario for an opponent. Remember, by not only pumping your Spawnwrithe with Sword and having him trample over, you will get those extra-added bonuses that could win you the game. The same is true for Jitte.
Most Goblin decks have nixed Mogg Fanatic because of the M10 changes. Not all, but some. You wouldn't fetch for the Arbor before his attack, obviously. And you certainly wouldn't get it if he has a Fanatic on board. I was referring to its utility when you don't have a creature to fight it off with. With the amount of acceleration you play, you should have no trouble with Lackey, especially with Chalice set at one on the play. You have to consider all logical scenarios.
Also, you can attack through Lackey with Spawnwrithe; that is a race you will almost certainly win in the long-haul. You generate an obscene amount of card advantage with the vast amount of copies and tokens you make from Spawnwrithe and Garruk, respectively. This, coupled with all the other creatures you have in the deck, help make your equipment optimal in almost every given scenario. I exploited their utility at the Dual Land Draft, and to be honest, they were the reason I won the majority of my games.
You have enough acceleration to get Spawnwrithe out in a hurry; there is no logical reason to assume he is only good in a Stax variant because he has never seen action in a serious deck like this before. I've been doing a limited amount of testing against Goblins and Dragon Stompy and I haven't been disappointed with its performance. I wouldn't play him if I didn't feel he was a good commodity.
I understand how the creature works. I'm just not sure if he comes out quite fast enough to be most effective... I know some ppl might agree, but like I said Tangle Wire & Briarhorn provide much quicker support than equipment.. like SoFI works amazing with him I understand, but its somewhat slow if you're talking him coming out generally turn 2, and getting equipped turn 3-4.Spawnwrithe gets larger with your equipment and can create a very unnerving scenario for an opponent. Remember, by not only pumping your Spawnwrithe with Sword and having him trample over, you will get those extra-added bonuses that could win you the game. The same is true for Jitte.
I was assuming they were going first, otherwise you're right Chalice would shut them down no problem. Still. Yeah, as a last ditch effort I suppose it'd be better than the alternative lolYou wouldn't fetch for the Arbor before his attack, obviously. And you certainly wouldn't get it if he has a Fanatic on board. I was referring to its utility when you don't have a creature to fight it off with. With the amount of acceleration you play, you should have no trouble with Lackey, especially with Chalice set at one on the play. You have to consider all logical scenarios.
okay, I believe you. He has been tested in Elephant Stompy quite a bit before this thread existed.he has never seen action in a serious deck like this before
Loaming Shaman is pretty great, definitly a good inclusion.
Spawnwrithe is a great card however moving trinisphere to the board might hurt his explosiveness a little.
as far as equipment goes I would just stick to the jitte.
The addition of Sword and Fire and Ice (along with Jitte) helps ease some pressure on relying too heavily on Natural Order to win games. By playing any one of those equipment cards, you are able to power up any smaller 1/1 into something far more effective.
Sword also has a cost of three colorless, and because of how well it worked at Eli's, I am inclined to give it a chance in the main.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 08-05-2009 at 05:09 PM.
@Fons
I would disagree about just sticking to Jitte. This deck wants to punish blue and SoFI help alot with that, as well as adding card draw. They both do removal quite well, but SoFI adds built in +2/+2 which helps many of the creatures in the deck (as well as making them harder to block).
Running an even split of 2 Jitte / 2 SoFI might make more sense as otherwise you are pretty equipment heavy and have very little way to filter through them if you draw too many.
To replace the one equipment you took out, I was thinking of a way to handle Tombstalker (even thought the scryb sprites make a huge difference there). Arashi, the sky asunder was one thought as the channel is a good effect, or a hurricane type direct damage finisher?
Two and two might make more sense. If I were to remove the third Jitte, I would probably substitute it for something along the lines of a fourth Scryb Ranger. I only have three in the list right now and it might make sense to bring it up to an even four, given his uses.
I've also been mulling over another target for Natural Order.
A Woodfall Primus in SB could be nice in this slot. A second Porgenitus too...I've also been mulling over another target for Natural Order.
Symbiotic Worm...Verdant force..?
Another I had, maybe Empyrial Archangel. Would be a beast to deal with.. if they don't have a board sweeper their chances are looking grim lol :)
You are getting closer and closer to Elephant Stompy after every change you make to the deck. Now the main difference is that you have Wasteland and 1cc elves colliding with your chalice. Without testing this deck I believe it could improve the consistency and lessen the mulligans, but at what cost? Elves are pretty unimpressive topdecks and you lack the ability of dropping constant first turn bombs by not playing Chrome Mox. Wasteland is also a tempo-loss and could cause problems gettin GG, but I also see you already tried to address this issue in your new build.
Elephant stompy has some questionable slots with Call of the Herd. I could try with mana elves/hierarchs in their slot and see how that affects the mulliganing.
And Woodfall Primus is a decent second NO target. Empyrial Archangel is not bad, but surprisingly often it will die before hitting for lethal. Even tempo thresh can get rid of it by just attacking with a goyf and bolting you. Then you have sacrificed a creature for nothing, or maybe for 5 damage. After playing with Hypergenesis combo I realized that Archangel is golden if you have another fatties besides her. Then she timewalks and other fatties go for the win. With NO you usually don't want something that your opponent can get rid of. Progenitus is easily the best bet, and it might be worth considering two copies if you want another target. Primus is good SB material against Moat.dec or similar lock pieces which prevent Progenitus doing its job.
Is this deck superior to elephant stompy and if, why? ES is terribly fast and disruptive, both of which I've seen as the reasons for it and dragon stompy to be so good. This often gives up the best disruption - 1st turn chalice - for mana elves.
Yeah, at this point, why play this over Elephant Stompy, anyway?
Because Elephant stompy is less competitive ??
I mean, I tested Elephant stompy ('cause I love Green), and this deck, if not capable to make huge turns 1 (still CotV at 1 is a huge first turn...) is capable to win in the mid/late game. Elephant stompy has very few chances to win if the game arrived at the mid/long game.
For the elves, many of the latest lists played it (or noble hierarch...).
MGCA tries to reduce the number of cards that make card disadvantage : moxen, ESG, ... but play cards like elves... (but the way, if Llanowar is a bad topdeck, what about topdeck mox in Elephant stompy...) which are clearly superior in a mid/long-game strategy.
Elephant stompy is destroyed by many cards (a bolt on your spawnwrithe turn one can let you in a situation where you only have to cards in hand... nice), the worst of them being pernicious deed.
MGCA for example doesn't have the same weakness to deed (especially in my version why regenerating creatures, garruk) especially because you don't vomit your hand with MGCA, just like others stompies would do.
This deck is far away from other stompy decks... and much closer to stax...
Chalice 1 can possibly step on elves, my biggest worry would be choosing to play Llanower first with an ancient tomb/chalice hand.. next turn they thoughtseize, bolt, Aether vial, etc. But the elves also correct more problems in terms of card advantage than they hurt too. Gotta take the good with the bad :)
Primus is always a great choice. But I think you're not giving Empyrial Archangel enough credit, if you're assuming you NO turn 3.. EVEN if someone does have goyf/LB (we're playing zoo I take it?).... you ALSO have goyf, mana elves, Garruk, etc. to block if you really need. Not like you're just gonna let 'em attack you, and how big is goyf by turn 3? Most likely not a 5/6+. Even so, consider the possibility you chalice @1?? Oh, now they can't bolt or play more apes. Even if they have a nactl & ape that's at most 5 damage, you can timewalk ftw and take 0 damage whereas Primus they always have the possibility of racing you. Moat? Angel has evasion so that solves that.
Problem with multiple copies of Progen is you don't want to draw it, its a dead card. You can't pitch it to mox either in this deck. If destroyed it gets shuffled back in, so I don't really get that.
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