View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21461
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    None of them, because we are ultimately powerless to change anything. This is a venting service, not a relevant discussion in a diplomatic sense. Nothing is lost or gained.
    Well, in a sense, yes, but also no, because part of what Wizards seem to operate on is the "perceived meta" or "perceived format." So, when people here (and other places too) were apt to crown Grixis Delver the "obviously best deck" it really, in all likelyhood, did put a target on Deathrite.

    So, the consequences of what we do here likely are real, be it minute or not, they do exist. And the personal cost of it all is a real cost. People will no doubt laugh that off, but actual real research does seem to show that the idea of "catharsis" is something of a farce. But I am likely getting away from the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    It's taken me years to be willing to read shit and not desire to prove my point. But for a long time I did and that was very toxic. That toxicity is limited to this one thread, letting it collect the shit other threads would otherwise have to deal with.
    Yeah, but like I was saying, this sort of "toxicity" does have a "real-life" cost. Because if you just engage in a ratification of confirmation bias and never investigate that and other biases, in the context of a children's card game, it is very unlikely that one would be willing to do it in the "real world" where they are real consequences for that entrenchment in certain ideas (or ideals).

    But I think most here likely take my attempts at a more philosophical approach as a joke, and philosophy itself as a joke. That's fine, but my hope is that I can do a half decent job enough to help at least someone realize that it's a serious point and there is some merit to taking it seriously.

    But, hey, maybe that is just my own bias in action...
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  2. #21462
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?
    I can demonstrate only by example, but cards that I feel are terrific additions:

    Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm, Shardless Agent, Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Green Sun's Zenith, Past in Flames

    Cards that are dogshit:
    Chalice, Emralol, Griseltard, Omnidrool, Enter the Derp, TZZ, Black Vise (as riskless as the unbanning was, the only EV apart from zero would've been negative)

    In Pauper, I could cite the Bogles/Hexproof deck as an offender.

    Basically, one set of cards makes me wonder why I sat at the table since we're playing Magic only in a technical sense and even any "going off" with a combo doesn't feel magical since it's canned dogshit, while the other set actively makes me want to sit at the table because they make the experience of sitting at the table more interesting. The fair games are more interactive and have interesting trickery to them, the combos look fun and have multiple pieces coming together into, well, a combination. If the games are going to be chucklerfests where we roll dice and play War to determine who wins, the actual act of playing Magic is pointless. Just toss the dice, declare the winner and go grab a dram while waiting for the next round. Turn 1 decks basically all fall into this category, even if comboing off with them is mechanically interesting.

    Like, playing against, say, Bogles in Pauper. Oh wow, I didn't draw Electrickery on turn 1/2, you cast an aura on the shitter. Well played. It doesn't matter what the matchup score is, calling that a game in anything but quotation marks is an insult to the idea of good games.

    In another sense:

    Prisons that the prison player needs to actually build piece by piece, where you at some point find you can't really play Magic properly anymore and can try to dismantle parts of it? Fun, I want. Games against these kinds of decks have been some of the most fun games of Magic I've ever had.
    Chalice / T1 Slam-a-Moon decks? Where's the shredder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  3. #21463
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?
    Omg like, what even is a positive experience? What is a game even? Do you play to enjoy yourself? Can one even enjoy themselves truly?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.

    'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'

    'ACKSHUALLY'

  4. #21464
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't mean to be reductionist, but is the real issue with Hymn to Tourach the random nature of it? I can't think of any corollary effects that are commonly played in legacy with random effects. We have cards like Shardless Agent where one effect is known (2/2 artifact creature) and one is random (cascade into several possibilities.) The other comparison would be cards with known quantities that provide two effects. Kolaghan's Command and Snapcaster Mage are examples of this.

    In a nutshell: how do we find a way to compare apples to apples? Once we have an objective way to evaluate what it does in a game of magic we can start talking about how it affects gameplay. Once we know how it affects gameplay, from a mechanical perspective, then we can make our own opinions on whether we 'like it' or it 'adds anything to the format' based on what it does. Notwithstanding the argument, we don't see many copies of Hymn to Tourach anyways. Hymn is currently 40th on the list of most played cards in Legacy, according to mtgtop8. This isn't a perfect data point, but it gives us a starting point.

    I'll be 100% honest: Fox is the only person I've ever met (electronically or otherwise) that has even mentioned Hymn as a card that needs to be banned.
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  5. #21465
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You can't keep ramping up Tomb's position in the meta ..
    Oh noes. Ramping up to a whole 16% of the meta? (based on mtgtop8 last 2 months, and half of that is Show and Tell). While Xerox is typically 60% or more? Why is that bad for the format? Why can't Tomb be ramped up?

    Tomb supports a wide range of strategies: Chalice aggro, Blood Moon decks, Painter decks, MUD/Welder decks, Stax prison, SneakShow/OmniTell combo, BigDrazi/12Post ramp, AntWar/Tezzerator, Salvagers.. It makes colorless and mono-color strategies more feasible. Without it there would be very little reason not to run blue duals and Brainstorm. Even then, half the successful Tomb decks still ran Island and Brainstorm.


    Hymn with perfect mana fixing is not a reasonable card.
    It's not a reasonable card in Pauper or Modern. In Legacy the power level is reasonable and there are tools to play around it.

    It's just a 2 for 1. It can rip multiple cards out of your hand, but so can Wrench Mind, Gerrard's Verdict, Cabal Therapy, Raven's Crime, Pox, and Liliana of the Veil. Hymn has been around forever as the primary reward for playing Swamp, and while powerful, never broke the format even with much smaller card pools than today. Decks have many tools to recover from topdeck mode (cantrips), stop the opponent from casting Hymn (mana denial, taxing, counters, discard, Chalice), or just deploy their hands first. Earlier in the decade a lot of decks (Eva Green, Team America, etc) wouldn't even run the full 4 copies of Hymn because it was too slow. It shines in grindy games where hand resources matter, because that's where 2-for-1s shine.

    If you find Grixis Control oppressive, it's because of how many 2-for-1s they have and how hard it is to recover against all those lines of attack at once, not because Hymn itself is broken. Hymn + Snapcaster has been legal for a long time and was never a problem before, because 4 mana is slow.

    It sounds like your idea of good Magic is limited to Uxx aggro-control mirrors, and therefore anything that impedes that (Tomb decks playing Chalice, Grixis blowing out your hand, no DRS to fix mana) is "bad" for the format. It might be bad for that archetype, but the format is a lot more than that.

  6. #21466

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post

    It's just a 2 for 1.
    is too strong. wide too strong.



    Not like

    Terminus that is 1 for X
    Counterbalance that is 1 for x
    Brainstorm that is 1 for 3 (yes 2 are useless)
    COTV that is 1 for x
    Jace that is 1 for x


    Are we playin the same game?
    Why wouldn't you play Zoo? Instead of a 5/5 for B that's immune to Push, you can get a 4/5 for 1G that's not. And instead of a 3/2 flyer for U, you can get a 3/3 double conditional for G. Oh, and you also get to not include the two best colors in Legacy, or any of the best spells, and you're a dog to combo.

    What's not to love?

  7. #21467
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If really there is a new big format incoming, I think WotC has a huge opportunity to re-evaluate all the Ban lists in all the format. Not to shake the format (it will at the end), but to show the players on what each format will be and should be centred.
    They should reconsider every card on their ban list and produce a competent solution to attract new players.
    At the moment we have:
    Vintage -> Power -> Workshop and Blue everywhere
    Legacy -> No Power -> Brainstorm everywhere and probably very soon CotV+Karn
    Modern -> Only new Layout -> 4 turn rules
    Standard -> last couple of sets

    I definitely prefer a solution similar to aď4 turn rulesĒ in every format instead a cards defining the Format I think it will be much healthier, than the situation we have now especially in older format. Where I am really thinking to play modern because Legacy became very stagnant.

    I will also side with Zombie.
    I prefer to play against TES or ANT and try to be faster/disrupt my opponent then die turn 1 to Ape and Show. .
    I still remember the best games with my brother were when I was trying to establish and sustain stasis and he was trying to burn me or kill me with a horde of Goblins.

    Good times.

  8. #21468
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    I will also side with Zombie.
    I prefer to play against TES or ANT and try to be faster/disrupt my opponent then die turn 1 to Ape and Show. .
    I still remember the best games with my brother were when I was trying to establish and sustain stasis and he was trying to burn me or kill me with a horde of Goblins.
    In fairness, S&T isn't built to do nothing but kill you T1, it's very much a stability-oriented deck. TES is probably more geared for speed and straddles the line whether it's too fast to be really fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  9. #21469
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I believe a revised list, that will temper cards like Emrakul, Grizzly, Omniscience and other non-sens cards, will open the possibility to Maybe( with big M) reintroduce to the format cards like Oath or Survival of the fittest.

  10. #21470
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    I believe a revised list, that will temper cards like Emrakul, Grizzly, Omniscience and other non-sens cards, will open the possibility to Maybe( with big M) reintroduce to the format cards like Oath or Survival of the fittest.
    The problem with that (and why I actually for once agree with WOTC) is that at some point they will print some other dumb fatty. Like yeah Griselbrand needs to be banned because it's a stupid fucking card, but eventually something dumb as shit will get printed and break everything in half once again. I honestly feel like bolas citadel might be pretty damn close to being completely broken, but we'll see
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  11. #21471
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yes, I understand for a company point of view, printing a new card and instantly banning it in the old format might be an issue.
    But I believe even with a situation like that, after the set is out of print you could easily ban the appropriate cards to keep a format fresh and balanced. I do not know how long they print sets nowadays, 6 month?, 12month?, it will make something like a mini rotation. For 12 month you can use the new cards, if they are too powerful you came back to the previous state, still having access to the remaining cards of the set. And every 3 month you have a new set.

    Is really Bolas citadel strong?
    For power level point of view it looks like Necropotence-> Grizzlybrand-> Bargain -> Citadel. And I only put Necro in front because you can hard cast it. Based on the raw power level i think Grizzlybrand is stronger, than Necro because you can draw 7 card each turn without losing life in a vacuum.

  12. #21472
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @FTW youíre missing the part about Fetch + DRS being pretty a pretty much non-interactive path to turn 2 Hymn. When youíre on the draw vs that strategy your hand basically has to be Volc + Bolt + Daze to stop that. You Wasteland the Sea or just kill the DRS, theyíre going to have a high % chance to find black mana #2 (thanks to Fetchlands). When you have mana fixing inevitability, it becomes pretty clear that Hymn is the single best payoff card for a conventional DRS strategy [i.e. not Elves]. So the issue here is that DRS, while poorly designed, is that it brought a lot of interesting interaction to the format, and was the wrong ban. Hymn is the card that made every other DRS-using deck [not called Grixis Delver or Elves] crappy Czech - there was no combination of cards they could have sleeved up to compete, because to compete, they would have needed a hand. Put another way: Hymn is the card most responsible for eradicating DRS-deck diversity.

    Unban DRS, ban Hymn prisoner exchange makes legacy more diverse. Unban SDT, ban CB prisoner exchange makes legacy more diverse. The net effect taken together: stop spamming discard (or lose to DRS stopping the recursion, and SDT diminishing discardís impact - particularly instant speed discard).

    On the subject of Tomb, Iíve never really cared one way or the other about Chalice decks. Sol Land + Chalice is however an exceptionally low bar for exacerbating first player advantage. Add the new mulligan rule, and this gets worse.

    My posts in this thread are not about specific archetypes getting help, itís about pointing out cards that decrease diversity and undermine external game rules. Some examples of [not Fetchland] crap Iíve called out: Probe -> Therapy lose 2 cards turn 0, Sea/DRS -> canít avoid turn 2 Hymn, UU to counter every card in your deck. Tomb is pretty low my list (and Chalice isnít on my list at all), but any time weíre buffing mulligans, Tomb is going to get more attention than any other card in legacy. Below Tomb, there is Chancellor and Surgical getting tossed out together. In terms of ideal legacy, reprint duals & ban Fetchlands (Mirage fetches okay), then as necessary: ban Tomb/Vial/Mox Diamond. [on this last one: unban Hymn, unban DTT, and reexamine other banlist cards]

    The things I would subjectively like, but donít argue for:
    -casting a discard spell = you lose the game in 5 turns (donít waste my time, play to win).
    -ban card type planeswalker.

  13. #21473
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So the issue here is that DRS, while poorly designed, is that it brought a lot of interesting interaction to the format, and was the wrong ban. Hymn is the card that made every other DRS-using deck [not called Grixis Delver or Elves] crappy Czech - there was no combination of cards they could have sleeved up to compete, because to compete, they would have needed a hand. Put another way: Hymn is the card most responsible for eradicating DRS-deck diversity.
    Except that there is no evidence that this is a fact, nor any manner in which to prove it one way or the other. In other words, this "theory" is not falsifiable under current conditions (which are the only conditions we have). Furthermore, you readily engage in the confirmation bias of simply throwing out the decks that do not support your position, under the exact precondition that they do not support your hypothesis.

    Here is are alternative non-falsifiable positions: the leading cause of Deathrite's ban was Deathrite's power level. Or, the leading cause of Deathrite's ban was Deathrite's ubiquity. Or, even better, the leading cause of Deathrite's ban was Brainstorm and fetch lands.

    Invoking some fabled (and specious) idea like "diversity" only serves the aim of keeping this sort of nonsense alive.
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  14. #21474

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    ...
    Is really Bolas citadel strong?
    For power level point of view it looks like Necropotence-> Grizzlybrand-> Bargain -> Citadel. And I only put Necro in front because you can hard cast it. Based on the raw power level i think Grizzlybrand is stronger, than Necro because you can draw 7 card each turn without losing life in a vacuum.
    ...
    Under ideal conditions, Citadel is like a combination of Yawgmoth's Bargain and Channel. The power level is very high. The question is whether the need to play lands or counters is strong enough to keep it from going crazy. (I think you wouldn't be asking that question if Sensei's Divining Top were still legal.)

  15. #21475
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    the main issue with deathrite was giving black and blue decks ability to get 3 mana on turn 2 consistently without playing with green cards like birds of paradise or noble hierarch. hymn and other double colored cards were also an issue, but the 3 mana on turn 2 was a huge issue. attaching a graveyard hating win condition to it didn't help justify keeping it around.

    historically if you want to ramp with creatures, it should be done with something green.
    -rob

  16. #21476
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    historically if you want to ramp with creatures, it should be done with something green.
    Well, I think many decisions on Deathrite were made to push it, but ultimately likely a bit too far. Unfortunately it was seemingly "most" of what impetus existed to make Green a color to even consider in Legacy though. Now with Push/Angler, there is seems to be next to no reason to include Green over Red in most Legacy decks, which I think is partly reflected in Modern, and so in the ever declining price tag (and playability) of 'Goyf.

    I think they really should make a "fixed" Deathrite in Modern Horizons, to get Green back on the map of Legacy (and Jund back to a decent deck in Modern). But that is 100% personal opinion.
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  17. #21477
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @H DRS's absence has not helped no blue compete (unless you're zombardment, there is still no replacement) and you're worse off vs yard combo. DRS correlates with non-blue playability, while at the same time Hymn (Czech) antagonized non-blue viability.

    Not sure where you're going with your second paragraph other than every problem with DRS is secondary to Fetchlands. I have drawn this connection at every point. Neither DRS nor Hymn [nor BS or DTT] would be an issue with Fetchlands gone as the effect would be more 2c decks (harder color identities, more deck diversity). Note that CB is the number one killer of 2c deck viability.

    Not sure what point you're making other than you don't agree that diversity is a viable metric despite being based on solid observations you are trying to point out, but were already incorporated.

  18. #21478
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @H DRS's absence has not helped no blue compete (unless you're zombardment, there is still no replacement) and you're worse off vs yard combo. DRS correlates with non-blue playability, while at the same time Hymn (Czech) antagonized non-blue viability.

    Not sure where you're going with your second paragraph other than every problem with DRS is secondary to Fetchlands. I have drawn this connection at every point. Neither DRS nor Hymn [nor BS or DTT] would be an issue with Fetchlands gone as the effect would be more 2c decks (harder color identities, more deck diversity). Note that CB is the number one killer of 2c deck viability.
    Well, first, I think you assume that I support the banning of Deathrite. I did not and I still don't. However, I have a hunch why they did it, but that is neither here nor there.

    Second, I don't know why you assume that the ban was done to "help non-Blue compete." I have no idea where you draw the idea that Deathrite "correlates with non-blue playability" or that "Hymn antagonizes non-Blue viability." In fact, those seem like bald-face opinions, framed as "facts," to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Not sure what point you're making other than you don't agree that diversity is a viable metric despite being based on solid observations you are trying to point out, but were already incorporated.
    No, because in all likelihood what seems to be the sort of "diversity" that gets bandied around here is not something congruent with the very foundational elements of Legacy. Or, really, "eternal formats" in general. These formats are by design constrictive and anti-diverse.

    I don't buy "diversity for diversity's sake." Or, so broad an idea of diversity that is antithetical with the realities of eternal formats.
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  19. #21479
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Make like a Noble Hierarch for GB or something.
    G
    0/1
    Tap add R G or B.
    Whenever X becomes tapped target player exilea a card from their GY

    Or something
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  20. #21480
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I've always thought it'd be fair-er-ish if DRS just targeted your own graveyard.
    Ended the DRS staredowns, removed the incidental graveyard safety net, and caused you to exhaust resources at twice the rate.

    This doesn't solve Fox's doomsday scenario of T2 Hymn, and it might bring back some unhappy memories, but a multitool Grim Lavamancer would be really good, but not ubiquitous.
    It'd give Food Chain their best card back.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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