View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19861
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All,

    My desire to have all fetch lands banned remains. That is all.

    -Peace


    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    Most likely is always no changes.

    If there are changes, I would guess

    Urban Earthcraft

    Ban Brainstorm


    Changes I would like to see
    Ban all fetch lands

  2. #19862

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    All,

    My desire to have all fetch lands banned remains. That is all.

    -Peace
    Seconded. But, it's not going to happen because Fetch+Dual is just as much a "pillar" of legacy as Brainstorm is. So, even if it meets all possible metrics for banning (which Aaron Forsythe has admitted brainstorm does) it won't be banned.

    I want it to happen, it won't happen. I'd settle for a viable alternative to to duals that brings my manabase to less cost than my car.

  3. #19863

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    Seconded. But, it's not going to happen because Fetch+Dual is just as much a "pillar" of legacy as Brainstorm is. So, even if it meets all possible metrics for banning (which Aaron Forsythe has admitted brainstorm does) it won't be banned.

    I want it to happen, it won't happen. I'd settle for a viable alternative to to duals that brings my manabase to less cost than my car.
    So basically you want cards banned due to cost.

  4. #19864
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Although fetchlands are an important part of Legacy, would you give them up for: Top, Deathrite, Probe, DTT, TC, Mindtwist, Earthcraft and others?

    I'm not advocating for a fetchland ban, I'm just asking the ^^ above question.

    For the record... the only card in Legacy I want to see gone is Brainstorm. A fetchland ban would "fix" brainstorm to an appropriate level.

  5. #19865

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thresh84 View Post
    So basically you want cards banned due to cost.
    No, I think the fetchlands cause enough problems that they warrant banning just like Brainstorm. Banning fetchlands would *dramatically* increase the price of duals since you would need about three times as many for any given deck.

  6. #19866

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    Although fetchlands are an important part of Legacy, would you give them up for: Top, Deathrite, Probe, DTT, TC, Mindtwist, Earthcraft and others?
    I'd give up *every* dual land for the opportunity to see how the format would shake out with no duals, but all the other cards.

  7. #19867

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    No, I think the fetchlands cause enough problems that they warrant banning just like Brainstorm. Banning fetchlands would *dramatically* increase the price of duals since you would need about three times as many for any given deck.
    Yeah, so why not just ban the dual lands, and force us to fetch into Ravnica duals? You would breath life into the format in making any aggressive strategy very viable again, and would remove the entry barrier that are dual lands.

  8. #19868
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    Yeah, so why not just ban the dual lands, and force us to fetch into Ravnica duals? You would breath life into the format in making any aggressive strategy very viable again, and would remove the entry barrier that are dual lands.
    Steam Vents reaches $100 before the week ends, but sure, I get the idea.
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  9. #19869
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Correct, not at all. To summarize, the reason for a fetchland ban:

    1) Nearly cost-free shuffling effect, making Brainstorm, Sensei's Divning Top (et al) too good
    2) Nearly cost-free graveyard filling, making Deathrite Shaman (and the delve mechanic) too good. See: Treasure Cruise, Dig through Time
    3) Time constraints on tournaments would be relieved due to less frequent shuffling
    4) Banning fetches would make other dual-land options viable
    Point 3 is true although I think is exaggerated by and large.

    In regards to point 1 and 2, the only cards that are pushed over the top by the presence of fetches are Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm. The Delve spells would still be strong due to the presence of other cantrips and cheap spells in legacy. Top would get worse..in applications outside of miracles, so whats the point?

    As for point 4, why would you want to? You can only play what your mana enables and fetch + duals enable the most amount of options as far as deck building. In addition, it also ensures other effects that would otherwise punish having 2 or more colors (wasteland, Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Sinkhole etc) aren't too good and dominant.

    TL:DR Who the fuck wants burn/pox to be a tier 1 deck that badly?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
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  10. #19870
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Point 3 is true although I think is exaggerated by and large.

    In regards to point 1 and 2, the only cards that are pushed over the top by the presence of fetches are Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm. The Delve spells would still be strong due to the presence of other cantrips and cheap spells in legacy. Top would get worse..in applications outside of miracles, so whats the point?

    As for point 4, why would you want to? You can only play what your mana enables and fetch + duals enable the most amount of options as far as deck building. In addition, it also ensures other effects that would otherwise punish having 2 or more colors (wasteland, Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Sinkhole etc) aren't too good and dominant.

    TL:DR Who the fuck wants burn/pox to be a tier 1 deck that badly?
    I concur. People in here bitch non-stop about diversity and constantly discuss banning things on the basis of increasing diversity. Banning fetchlands might neuter Brainstorm et al, but it would have an opposite effect on format diversity.
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  11. #19871
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I concur. People in here bitch non-stop about diversity and constantly discuss banning things on the basis of increasing diversity. Banning fetchlands might neuter Brainstorm et al, but it would have an opposite effect on format diversity.
    I don't think the impact to format diversity can be quantified easily. Many statements made either showing support or lack of support for a recent banned list change, regardless of format, have "format diversity" as a crux. I personally think format diversity is a very complex topic.

    On the surface, we can hypothisize what would happen if decks just replaced fetches with duals. Blood moon/wasteland/Port become very effective cards. Deck builders begin weighing the costs to the benefits of adding colors, trimming the number of colors to 2 - 3. Hate cards diminish in strength. Where does this all lead to, more format diversity or less?

    Format diversity for eternal formats, even in the absence of banning list changes, moves significantly over time as new cards are printed and strategies become in vogue. I think every deck has several decks that are poor matchups, for one reason or another. If one deck becomes very popular, so will the decks that can trounce it. It is an endless buckyball.

    It is possible fewer decks will be represented at top tables, over the long haul, if fetches are banned. It also seems quite possible the opposite effect will occur. I'm not prepared to say what would be good/popular if fetches are banned, how sure are you?

  12. #19872
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    That just begs the question "Why"

    Why would WOTC risk disrupting the format so heavily for a handful of cards?

    Why would WOTC potentially alienate large chunks of the legacy community for a possibly more diverse format?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  13. #19873
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    That just begs the question "Why"

    Why would WOTC risk disrupting the format so heavily for a handful of cards?

    Why would WOTC potentially alienate large chunks of the legacy community for a possibly more diverse format?
    1) Because those cards are the essential to blame for next to all bannings in the last decade and the reason why one shell is dominating the format forever.

    2) they wont ban fetches and alienate the playerbase. Aarons statement about Brainstorm was pretty clear on explaining their handling of the format. Legacy players just want to keep their "fixed" 20 slots in their decks consisting of 8 fetches, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder and 4 FoW, no matter if we keep on banning a dozen more cards instead over the next years. Legacy does have its holy cows. They rather ban SnT, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand and Emrakul altogether before admitting, that the deck would be an unplayable pile of junk without Brainstorm and Fetches gluing the deck together.
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  14. #19874
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Top, DTT, Treasure Cruise, Mental Misstep, Gitaxian Probe, Deathrite Shaman, Survival of the fittest and Mystical Tutor were not banned because fetches were too good, it’s because those cards caused actual problems in the format. Fetches or not, with the exception of deathrite shaman, those cards would likely be banned anyways.

    For that matter, in your example, I’d argue Sol Lands are probably more at fault for Sneak/Show than fetches.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  15. #19875
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Point 3 is true although I think is exaggerated by and large.

    In regards to point 1 and 2, the only cards that are pushed over the top by the presence of fetches are Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm. The Delve spells would still be strong due to the presence of other cantrips and cheap spells in legacy. Top would get worse..in applications outside of miracles, so whats the point?

    As for point 4, why would you want to? You can only play what your mana enables and fetch + duals enable the most amount of options as far as deck building. In addition, it also ensures other effects that would otherwise punish having 2 or more colors (wasteland, Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Sinkhole etc) aren't too good and dominant.

    TL:DR Who the fuck wants burn/pox to be a tier 1 deck that badly?
    Just summarizing, not necessarily supporting all points. I do feel that a fetchland ban does tip the scales towards fair for brainstorm, sdt, drs, etc. I'm convinced it's a legitimate argument.
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  16. #19876
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post

    For that matter, in your example, I’d argue Sol Lands are probably more at fault for Sneak/Show than fetches.
    If this was the case, the mono-red variant of Sneak - which plays a lot more Sol Lands - would be actually good. A+B combo requires Brainstorm to function smoothly, and Brainstorm is dependent on fetch lands.
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  17. #19877

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Steam Vents reaches $100 before the week ends, but sure, I get the idea.
    From a pure cost situation... the counterpart to steam vents (tropical island) is listed at $400 (out of stock) on Starcity. So, $100 is better. That said I doubt steam vents (or any other shock) would get that high, since we are moving into a shockland standard again in a few months :).

    We're getting super far afield now though.

    There are two things I'd like to see happen, only one of which is able to be handled by the ban list: 1) break the fetch land manabase chokehold and 2) make viable alternative dual lands. 1 can be achieved as easily as banning fetchlands (it won't be, but it could be), but doing that runs directly counter to 2. On the other hand, if they did it in conjunction with printing duals that are specifically intended to be alternatives to duals that could help somewhat alleviate the huge price increase on OG duals.

    But, again, this is all hypothetical becuase fetch+Dual is just as much a "pillar" as brainstorm.

  18. #19878

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    That just begs the question "Why"

    Why would WOTC risk disrupting the format so heavily for a handful of cards?

    Why would WOTC potentially alienate large chunks of the legacy community for a possibly more diverse format?
    They wouldn't. And we all know that, but we're talking about hypothetical situations. Banning fetches is just as likely as banning brainstorm, and banning OG duals is a teensy bit more likely, but way beyond the realm of possiblity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    They rather ban SnT, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand and Emrakul altogether before admitting, that the deck would be an unplayable pile of junk without Brainstorm and Fetches gluing the deck together.
    Not quite. They'll admit that it would be junk without the core fetches + brainstorm + FoW. They just won't do anything about it, because "the players want to play with fetches, brainstorm, and FoW".

  19. #19879
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    If this was the case, the mono-red variant of Sneak - which plays a lot more Sol Lands - would be actually good. A+B combo requires Brainstorm to function smoothly, and Brainstorm is dependent on fetch lands.
    No fetches/Brainstorm would make Sneak//Show extremely clunky but playable, there is still actual upside in playing the deck as you can still ape out a Griselbrand turn 2.

    No sol Lands makes that deck pretty awful, everything slows down a full turn and you no longer have the option of cheesing people out with turn 2 bloodmoon or turn 3 Jace.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  20. #19880

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm starting to come around on the idea of a fetch ban, but only if they use their new "look at the top x" cards design, and make them of a sufficient digging power to replicate a fetch. Like, look at your top 10, and take an island or swamp card and put it into play, put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Something like that, which is printed sufficiently, any coincides with a fetch ban would be ok with me.

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