View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #17941

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Different cards require different skillsets, chalice players need to build a deck that can actually win without playing 1 drops. They also need to play well to win matchups Chalice is bad. Obviously there are tough brainstorms but it's not always 'super skill intensive and im smarter than non-blue players'. There are times you just resolve ancestral recall that also turns a 6 mana uncastable brick into a 1 mana Hallowed Burial, or puts back 2 lands to get hellbent for infernal tutor.

  2. #17942
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    My dad can play Magic with more difficulty than your dad...

  3. #17943

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Without having incredibly powerful cantrips to bail you out each decision you make is magnified because you don't have an easy ability to simply go find more removal or another wasteland. You may have less options (sometimes), but each decision you make has a greater impact on the game. Also just because you don't have brainstorm doesn't mean you have less options. Look at maverick. Two different tool boxes built into the deck makes for many intricate lines of play that result in a lot of different decisions to be made, and with many activated abilities you must also learn the art of perfect timing.
    Maverik... I am talking about decks that actually try to win in a non-kitchentable meta

    Also cantrip timing is totally unimporant... yeah sure...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    Different cards require different skillsets, chalice players need to build a deck that can actually win without playing 1 drops. They also need to play well to win matchups Chalice is bad. Obviously there are tough brainstorms but it's not always 'super skill intensive and im smarter than non-blue players'. There are times you just resolve ancestral recall that also turns a 6 mana uncastable brick into a 1 mana Hallowed Burial, or puts back 2 lands to get hellbent for infernal tutor.
    Yeah because you actually build your deck from scratch each time... Most chalice decks are 90+% fixed like most other decks, where is the skill in copying a sucessful list?

    ok sometimes bs does that, sometime you keep 1-landers with 2 brainstorms and lock yourself after turn 2 and just loose... what purpose do these "examples" it proves nothing

  4. #17944
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maybe its time you step off your pedestal, do you really think that MB BUG is harder to play then MB Maverick / Elves?

    Resolving one threath and protecting it with spells is not that hard to play out compared to a deck that has a ton of activations.

    Don't act like cantripping is uber pro, you look at the board state, you know you have X cards that affect the board state in a favourable way for you so you dig towards them and thats it.
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  5. #17945
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The most difficult decks to play I have personally found are those with both a direct goal and Tutors. What I mean by that is a deck like TES, Elves or Lands have a very dedicated and streamlined endpoint, but these deck tend to have a simple way to stop them. So you have to know how to play against the whole format, not just against a given opponent.

    The tutors magnify the difficulty. While they offer solutions to issues, they also offer potential answers to yet asked questions. Looking for the wrong thing without the safety net of filtering for more answers is often a win or lose choice. That might be the only tutor you see all game and knowing the format, if you should push you goal or seek a a pre-emptive response to a known issue is hard. (The reason I include TES is because a lot of these targets are not in your main, so it feels much the same at times.)

    There is a skill to any deck, honed over years of testing and trial. If you need proof go watch Sully on his "Best of SCG Live" video. A master-class in how to play burn. Some though are far easier than others. U/R Delver is not a complex deck to play, nor is B/R Reanimator. But that doesn't mean that there are not lines that have been long mastered by others I would never see.

    Personally, I think the hardest deck to play optimally in Legacy is Elves.
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  6. #17946
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I am not sure why there is a debate about skill in cards or deck, as this has nothing to do with the B/R list.

  7. #17947
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    I am not sure why there is a debate about skill in cards or deck, as this has nothing to do with the B/R list.
    "This card is skill testing, it takes skill to use so it should not be banned" is a straw man yes, but common one. Debating skill thus is a proxy discussion that will at times occur here.
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 10-29-2017 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Spelling.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  8. #17948
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    People that defend brainstorm seem to think #SkillIntensive is a criteria for whether or not a card is ban worthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  9. #17949
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    People that defend brainstorm seem to think #SkillIntensive is a criteria for whether or not a card is ban worthy.
    We heared plenty of non-arguments for years on both sides. Putting hashtags in front of them to repeat shit over and over just drags the discussion down the hill. Have we already forgotten nedleeds?
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  10. #17950
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Considering nedleeds and I are both #ATL players, both on #TeamTusk, and sometimes do #TuskTalk together, no we will #NeverForget

    #FreeNedleeds
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  11. #17951

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    #FreeCaviusTheGreat will get more support.


    IMO
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  12. #17952
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    #FreeCaviusTheGreat will get more support.


    IMO
    +1
    Most reasonable and thoughtful post in this thread.
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  13. #17953
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    #FreeCaviusTheGreat will get more support.


    IMO
    +1
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  14. #17954

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    #FreeCaviusTheGreat will get more support.


    IMO
    +2 suckers

  15. #17955

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The most difficult decks to play I have personally found are those with both a direct goal and Tutors. What I mean by that is a deck like TES, Elves or Lands have a very dedicated and streamlined endpoint, but these deck tend to have a simple way to stop them. So you have to know how to play against the whole format, not just against a given opponent.

    The tutors magnify the difficulty. While they offer solutions to issues, they also offer potential answers to yet asked questions. Looking for the wrong thing without the safety net of filtering for more answers is often a win or lose choice. That might be the only tutor you see all game and knowing the format, if you should push you goal or seek a a pre-emptive response to a known issue is hard. (The reason I include TES is because a lot of these targets are not in your main, so it feels much the same at times.)

    There is a skill to any deck, honed over years of testing and trial. If you need proof go watch Sully on his "Best of SCG Live" video. A master-class in how to play burn. Some though are far easier than others. U/R Delver is not a complex deck to play, nor is B/R Reanimator. But that doesn't mean that there are not lines that have been long mastered by others I would never see.

    Personally, I think the hardest deck to play optimally in Legacy is Elves.
    Well that's an interesting point. I think you could easy see tutors as super-cantrips, because while a cantrip might find what you need, a tutor can be any card in your deck. So they give even more options than cantrips in a way. I think you could argue that GSZ/Infernal/Gamble are actually more powerful in those shells than cantrips actually. WHich is ok, because they have more constraints on deckbuilding.

    But honestly, arguing that Elves or Lands is actually less consistent (which is the main argument here atm for their overpoweredness) than any blue deck is a bit of a stretch in my imagination

  16. #17956
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Well that's an interesting point. I think you could easy see tutors as super-cantrips, because while a cantrip might find what you need, a tutor can be any card in your deck. So they give even more options than cantrips in a way. I think you could argue that GSZ/Infernal/Gamble are actually more powerful in those shells than cantrips actually. WHich is ok, because they have more constraints on deckbuilding.
    Super cantrips I can get behind. More options though I am not sure I completely agree with. You get a single look for a single target, but you do not often get to repeat the act many times in a game looking for new answers to changing situations or filtering out bad draws.

    While a card like GSZ gives you access to silver bullets it doesn't save you from mana flood, it doesn't save you from finding the wrong half of your deck or missing land drops. I think that the conditions placed on tutors make them individually extremely strong in the right shell yet they are still often less efficient over a long period than small but consistent looks at smaller numbers of changing cards.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    But honestly, arguing that Elves or Lands is actually less consistent (which is the main argument here atm for their overpoweredness) than any blue deck is a bit of a stretch in my imagination
    The problem is that your very limited by the tutors you pick. No tutor in Legacy is unconditional. GSZ is target limited, Gamble will just rip out your heart sometimes, Infernal is dependent on a deck structure that is streamlined to knife-edge. I feel like "Consistency" is a red hearing. Your limited by your chosen tutor to do more or less one thing so you make sure you do it well. But when the only limiting factor to playing Xerox is that you play Blue it makes those tutors conditional aspects even more apparent.

    So while Elves is very good at what it does and goes crazy if left undisturbed, due to the limitations placed upon it by its tutors it can not run the kinds of interaction other decks can. While it's finely turned to do something the same way every time and quickly, it's never going to have the extra flexibility of a deck like Grixis or BUG, with Burn or Discard main to grant additional interaction. Thus loses consistency to a deck that has more space available for more interactive effects while also having the ability to consistently locate them.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  17. #17957

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hold the phone, apparently CotV needs BANNED!!! SCG Legacy Classic had 119 people, and there were 13 Chalices in the top 8, count'em 13! Screw this ban brainstorm talk, can't play my brainstorm with this many CotV coming to town.

    Source

  18. #17958
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thresh84 View Post
    Hold the phone, apparently CotV needs BANNED!!! SCG Legacy Classic had 119 people, and there were 13 Chalices in the top 8, count'em 13! Screw this ban brainstorm talk, can't play my brainstorm with this many CotV coming to town.

    Source
    Yes, Ancient Tomb is a card that should be on the watch list (SnT and linear prison enabler). Mox Diamond/Aggro Loam isn't all that consistent.

  19. #17959

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, I've said it before, the format is binary, you play prison/taxing with chalice or similar (thalia) or you play brainstorm, or you lose.

  20. #17960
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Between the Open and the Classic, that's alot of non-blue decks. In fact, those are some diverse Top 8's. I'm gonna quote myself here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    There's also the fact that Xerox isn't an engine in the same way Loam or Survival was. An engine, in the traditional sense, is a card that generates incremental card advantage. Loam and Survival both do this. Standstill does this, CounterTop did this. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were also engines. The cantrips, on the other hand, only put you up cards virtually, by minimizing the number of dead draws. You can still call it an engine if you want, but it's different.

    The other part is that it's hard to look at the cantrips individually as the problem. If you ban Brainstorm, you definitely hurt the blue stew, but most decks just run Preordain instead and move on. In order to really do the sort of damage necessary, you'd have to go the way of Modern and ban all of the good cantrips.

    But I cannot understand the point. If you want a format where all of the good cantrips are banned, you already have Modern. Brainstorm and DRS may be in a lot of decks, and definitely perform better in larger events by reducing variance, but the metagame itself is extremely diverse, and has been in a constant state of flux since Top got banned. The Top 8 of EW may have looked bad, but look at the Top 64. Is there really anything wrong with Legacy?

    I love where Legacy is right now. There is still plenty of room for innovation, brews, and new decks to break out and perform well. I mean, two different variants of Nic Fit placed in Top 16. What more do you guys want?
    Ignore the bit about Brainstorm. The last two paragraphs are the emphasis here. Legacy looks to be in a great place right now.

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