All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

Miracles was top dog before Dig, that's not going to change with a ban.

Why is anyone discussing banning a worse card in the same color, with less usage, less utility, less versatility and a vastly lower power level than Brainstorm? Let's discuss banning Gitaxian Probe next.

[nedleeds]

My theory is that omni is an underplayed deck relative to how strong it is because people would rather play more interesting / difficult decks.

I agree with this as well. The 'gentleman's agreement', if half the field played it, nobody would ever show up to play at all.

[iatee]

Why is anyone discussing banning a worse card in the same color, with less usage, less utility, less versatility and a vastly lower power level than Brainstorm?

Why not both?

But really, brainstorm is so entrenched in legacy that I don't think wizards is ready to rock that boat, at least not until there's some huge popular uprising. And w/ an ever increasing number of people on brainstorm decks, it's hard to get people to look at things from a neutral POV rather than 'I don't want them to ban a key card in a very expensive legacy deck I own.'

Whereas DTT is still a relatively new card and is not particularly cherished by anyone but Omni players and doesn't even give people the impression that they're playing a skill-testing format.

[iatee]

And I mean, while I absolutely think banning brainstorm would be 'good for the format' in terms of gameplay and viable decks, there's a good argument that it would make so many people bitter that it would still be 'bad for the format'.

[Megadeus]

All I know is that watching and playing legacy is quickly losing my interest. Dig is just miserable in my opinion and has incentivized players to play the mass amounts of BS, Ponder, Probe, whatever. Before you kind of at least had to build around those can trips of you wanted to play them. Imo dig has become so powerful that it forces you into playing 12+ can trips and such. Brainstorm should be banned, but it never will be and I've accepted that.

[Crimhead]

Why is anyone discussing banning a worse card in the same color, with less usage, less utility, less versatility and a vastly lower power level than Brainstorm?

If WotC want to ban a card because Miracles is too strong (which it isn't), Why would they ban the most versatile card in the deck? It would make more sense to ban a card which is less versatile and will therefore result in less splash damage to other decks (which WotC are not trying to curb).

Obviously DTT is similarly versatile, so that's out too. But if the incentive for a ban is that Miracles is believed to be OP, why not ban something that will only hurt Miracles?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

All I know is that watching and playing legacy is quickly losing my interest. Dig is just miserable in my opinion and has incentivized players to play the mass amounts of BS, Ponder, Probe, whatever. Before you kind of at least had to build around those can trips of you wanted to play them. Imo dig has become so powerful that it forces you into playing 12+ can trips and such. Brainstorm should be banned, but it never will be and I've accepted that.

+1

Dig for UU is also much stronger then Brainstorming twice

[Dice_Box]

It's not all bad, I am able to play with four Ancestral Recall and 8 tutors. That more or less keeps me in the game against everything.

The format is not totally Blue. Yet.

[bruizar]

DTT should be treated as a draw 7. If DTT is legal, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Memory Jar might as well be. Since those cards aren't legal in legacy, neither should DTT.

[Megadeus]

It's not all bad, I am able to play with four Ancestral Recall and 8 tutors. That more or less keeps me in the game against everything.

The format is not totally Blue. Yet.

Some day they will make U Instant, destroy all elves.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Some day they will make U Instant, destroy all elves.

You mean Terminus?

[Megadeus]

You mean Terminus?

Damn. You got me there. Fuck Terminus too. If I ran the ban list I would simply ban every card played in the latest miracles list.

[menace13]

My theory is that omni is an underplayed deck relative to how strong it is because people would rather play more interesting / difficult decks. Miracles is maybe overplayed for the same reason, at least by a lot of people who would have higher win %s if they were just jamming Show and Tell -> Omniscience.

I tend to agree and see it the same way.

I never really enjoy playing SnT, but I enjoy winning prizes over playing a deck that is more fun and rewarding to play(not in terms of prizes). Those decks are probably the most objectively powerful decks in the format. The opponent has 7 or less cards to answer it and if they cant then they lost on the spot. Out of all the decks that win instantly SnT is the most efficient at doing it. It cuts out large portions of the game like playing to outs, red zone math, and incremental advantages. SnT ignores most of the things that make magic games fun and skill testing. Not that everyone can just top 8 GPs if they pilot SnT as skill is still involved in playing any deck through numerous rounds of good opponents.

[Crimhead]

DTT should be treated as a draw 7. If DTT is legal, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Memory Jar might as well be. Since those cards aren't legal in legacy, neither should DTT.

If I didn't know better I'd swear you were intentionally posting nonsense in order to discredit the whole anti-blue movement.

Nobody is going to take tripe like this seriously. Are you actually trying to generate discussion, or are you just venting?

[bruizar]

If I didn't know better I'd swear you were intentionally posting nonsense in order to discredit the whole anti-blue movement.

Nobody is going to take tripe like this seriously. Are you actually trying to generate discussion, or are you just venting?

I am dead serious. You can disagreee with me and that's fine. Blue lists have access to sideboarded cards in ways non blue decks don't. If you've watched the stream on twitch this weekend or last weekend, you would have seen plenty of examples where DTT 1) drew into sideboard hate 2) the 8th card was the hate card 3) a follow up ponder sourced from the DTT dug into sideboard hate. When you see 7-10 cards in a turn and get to keep 2 of them, chances are you'll beat decks that don't have access to these efficient selection/digging tools.

[Uroborian]

Other colors do have ways to find hate;

White: Enlightened tutor(only artifact and enchantment); SFM (only equipment hate)

Red: Burning Wish(sorcery); Imperial recruiter (only creatures of low power)

Green: Green Sun's Zenith(only creatures) ; living wish (creature or land)

Black: entomb/reanimate hate piece (just creatures).


However It is noted that these pieces have something in common...they are usually very specific and mostly create card disadvantage. DTT creates card advantage and gives you ability to see more of your deck. and it puts them into hand its not even card draw!

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I'm not a big fan of hypothetical comparisons. DTT is not draw 7, it's look at 7 and draw 2. But that doesn't matter, the card is still busted and it will get banned sooner or later.

[Finn]

All I know is that watching and playing legacy is quickly losing my interest. Dig is just miserable in my opinion and has incentivized players to play the mass amounts of BS, Ponder, Probe, whatever. Before you kind of at least had to build around those can trips of you wanted to play them. Imo dig has become so powerful that it forces you into playing 12+ can trips and such. Brainstorm should be banned, but it never will be and I've accepted that.

I find that I have to stop and translate every time I see Brainstorm referred to as "BS". At first, I only see "bullshit". Then I stop to consider the context, translate, and get to "Brainstorm". Then I think again and realize that my first thought of the acronym was just as correct.

[Crimhead]

I am dead serious. You can disagreee with me and that's fine. Blue lists have access to sideboarded cards in ways non blue decks don't. If you've watched the stream on twitch this weekend or last weekend, you would have seen plenty of examples where DTT 1) drew into sideboard hate 2) the 8th card was the hate card 3) a follow up ponder sourced from the DTT dug into sideboard hate. When you see 7-10 cards in a turn and get to keep 2 of them, chances are you'll beat decks that don't have access to these efficient selection/digging tools.

Reliably finding aside-board card =/= drawing seven. You are defending a statement different than the statement I was calling you out on.

[jimmythegreek]

Reliably finding aside-board card =/= drawing seven. You are defending a statement different than the statement I was calling you out on.

I play a lot of dredge at my local store. If the game gets to a point where someone is casting DTT they might as well draw seven as most often they will find the hate they are looking for. This mind you is a corner case. It's extremely frusterating when this happens, more often than not if I don't have enough damage for the swing back I've lost the game. Seeing seven is completely out of control for the price of UU.