Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I did say that black disruption was much worse than blue disruption but it shouldn't take much imagination to think of a non-balanced discard spell.
Bam - B
Instant
Split Second
Target Player Discards Their Hand.
This would immediately make counter spells much worse and discard would suddenly be better than counter magic.
The issue is that permanent based disruption has gotten a huge boost in power level and play ability in the past few years giving us a way to disrupt an opponent that is competitive and doesn't rely on playing blue. Since the balance of playable disruption has changed from U vs B we 1) get a more varied format and 2)have to deal with the disruption packages differently.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
We are talking in broad generalizations here but if you say force/brainstorm/ponder as a shell then the win wondition isn't what we are talking about because the win condition varies per playstyle and meta. The shell is a blue based cantrip engine with force of will...fill the rest in was needed.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Well tin fins doesn't play force. I'd argue that brainstorm/ponder/probe is certainly a shell as well. Tin fins and storm are both very similar decks with varying win conditions. Basically every blue deck at this point is play brainstorm, ponder, and probe or force (or both in derp Delver decks). Just because miracles and grixis have varying win conditions doesn't mean games don't look very similar. Basically spend the first couple turns durdling with cantrips and maybe forcing or removing things while you do it, them establish your board and win the game. Do the same thing with tin fins/storm except instead of removal they use discard before they win. Congratulations. You now have the legacy format
No, they really don't.
You might as well say, "Maverick and High Tide play games exactly the same way. They stop their opponents from playing good cards and build up a land base before killing the opponent."
Your argument follows a really reductive line of reasoning. At what point do decks diverge practically in the methods they use to disrupt, threaten, lock, or otherwise win the game against the opponent if all that matters to your argument is the methods they use to develop their game plans? Why is the focus on the cards that enable decks to develop their game plans consistently and not on the cards they use to do those other things? Why doesn't anyone express the same vexation over fetchlands or duals?
Utility cards provide utility. They are not a shell. They are not the engine decks use to win. They enable a variety of (often unique) engines and playstyles, but that's very different from saying that they are the engines that win the game themselves. If you go down that road, it's really not difficult to say that decks that play lands are all using the same engine to win the game: they accumulate resources using uncounterable permanents, then use those resources to play cards that damage or hobble the opponent until the game's over.
And again, the cards in question comprise at most just over a quarter of each deck of which they are a part (I can't imagine how Gitaxian Probe and Force of Will became part of the debate). Why that bothers people so much I really don't understand. Maybe it's just that I've gotten hosed by Eldrazi and D&T enough times to see that the so-called cartel is by no means inviolable.
Again, I'm not trying to be snide with this; I just don't see any merit to the argument that cards that increase consistency are the things that define decks and playstyles. Sure, they enable those decks and playstyles—perhaps they're what define the format for a lot of people—but that's very different from saying that they define the decks that run them.
It's worth pointing out that every cantrip takes a slot that's rather more useful if it holds a piece of permission or business. The trouble is that decks that run cantrips can't play added permission or business without coming apart at the seams. D&T, Eldrazi, Mav, Elves, Painter, Dredge, and Lands don't seem to have that problem.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.
Tier 3 decks have not been tested to be optimal or are just not as powerful as the tier 1 strategies.
Meagadeus is exactly right with his last post in that at a very basic level the blue shell plays the same set of cards or "shell" as we have been saying.
My excitement with the current mets is that every deck doesn't have to start with 4xbrainstorm and all of the cards that the one mana instant implies i.e. Blue duals, blue fetches, force/ponder/jace/whatever.
Going back to my post I was excited that there was a blue deck, a chalice deck, and two wasteland/port prison decks. lots of non blue, hurray!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Well everybody in the non-blue camp must feel great at the moment. Cards have been so pushed lately, just look at d&t they got Thalia 2.0, Recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. When has a deck gotten so many new powerful tools in such a short timespan?
I don#t understand how think it's better to have more chalice and wasteland/port decks than decks with cantrips. I for one like to play against the latter much more.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.
Waste/Port decks are okay IME, but CBTop/Chalice is often land something before the lockout card lands, "have fun" drawing a card a turn until you die.
Last edited by Zombie; 10-18-2016 at 10:37 AM.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/
Elves also benefitted greatly from the changes to the Legendary supertype. Obviously Lands benefitted more, but really only those two decks saw a significant benefit from the change.
I agree with this statement here, however the one issue that I have with this is that as long as decay exists, like tarmogoyf being the best vanilla dude, there is not much else that is even worth running. I've brewed decks up and 2-3 vindicate and just thought to myself, this is honestly just better off being decay most of the time. Obviously decay is less flexible, but being instant gets around the port decks and uncounterable has its obvious benefits. So I agree that the format is hitting a point where having a catch all removal spell is important, the problem is that decay is far and away the best one, with probably councils judgement trailing fairly far behind.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
It's the shell that keeps you from being flooded, or mana screwed. While asmadi guy draws 5 lands in 7 draw steps and goes to the bar. It's the shell that lets a 9 year old Brainstorm into 2 Invigorates and put back 2 extra lands in a flurry of skill intensive, while the not-blue player can't hit his 3rd land drop in his 23 land deck and gets wrecked by a fetus.
There are currently 417 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 417 guests)